Title: So You Think Predestination Started When and With Whom?

FreeInChrist said:
Where in the opening post does it give any praise or hi fives to anyone but God's chosen?

It was Paul, who dragged the Gentiles into the mix.... as much as he did.

In the old testament God made a covenant with HIS chosen only. Period That should have been understood by the OP, but obviously not to you as you keep trying to make the OP into something it is not.

I am not the one who said the Gentiles were grafted in as a wild branch to that olive tree , when some of the original branches
broke off.

And guess what.

OPEN YOUR EYES>

It never happened in old testament times. Not until God sent Jesus back to get the lost sheep that he was able to.

SO HOW COULD IT BE POSSIBLE , COVENENT OR NOT TO BE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT WHEN JESUS WAS NOT MENTIONED UNTIL THE NEW?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Sure Jesus did some miracle things for non Jewish people. That woman who sought him out for her daughter, for one. But that was rare.

But as the following says so concisely

The supreme example of ministry must always be Jesus Christ. “But I am among you as he that serveth” (Luke 22:27). He came first of all to minister to the Jews, that through Israel He might be able to minister to the Gentiles. “To the Jew first” is a principle that was followed in the earthly ministry of Christ and in the early ministry of the church.

And it also explains "Because the Jewish Christians were faithful to take the gospel to the Gentiles, the nations of the world today have the opportunity to trust Christ as Savior.

So the only possibility of anything between God the Father and the Gentiles, or any one out of the loop of Jesus and the Chosen
could only happen After Jesus came.

Here is a little light reading for you, and then, I am done trying to explain what you refuse to try to understand.

www.biblegateway.com

1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (15:8-13) - Warren Wiersbe BE Bible Study Series - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com www.biblegateway.com

Warren Wiersbe BE Bible Study Series – 1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (15:8-13)
Resources Warren Wiersbe BE Bible Study Series 1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (15:8-13)
1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (15:8-13)

1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (​

The supreme example of ministry must always be Jesus Christ. “But I am among you as he that serveth” (Luke 22:27). He came first of all to minister to the Jews, that through Israel He might be able to minister to the Gentiles. “To the Jew first” is a principle that was followed in the earthly ministry of Christ and in the early ministry of the church.

For example, John the Baptist came to minister to the nation of Israel to prepare them for their Messiah. When Jesus began His ministry, it was only to the people of Israel. When He sent out the apostles on their first evangelistic mission, He ordered them, “Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not; but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt. 10:5-6). This does not mean that He ignored individual Gentiles, because He did minister to a few (Matt. 8:5-13; 15:21-28), but His major emphasis was on Israel.

After His resurrection, He commanded the apostles to remain in Jerusalem and begin their ministry there (Luke 24:44-49). The period covered by Acts 1–7 is characterized by a ministry only to Jews or Jewish proselytes. It was not until Acts 8 that the gospel went to the Samaritans; in Acts 10 it went to the Gentiles. Then, through the ministry of Paul, it went throughout the Roman Empire (Acts 13:1-3).

When He came and died, Jesus Christ confirmed the promises that God made to Abraham and the other “fathers” of the Jewish nation (see Luke 1:30-33, 46-55, 67-80). Some of these promises have already been fulfilled, but many await fulfillment when He returns to earth to establish His kingdom.

Was it selfish of God to emphasize the Jews? No, because through the Jews, He would send the good news of salvation to the Gentiles. The first Christians were Jewish believers. “Salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22). In the Old Testament period, God chose Israel to be a minister to the Gentiles, but instead, Israel copied the idolatrous ways of the Gentiles and had to be chastened. In the New Testament period, God chose Jewish believers to carry the good news to the Gentiles, and they obeyed Him.

There is a beautiful progression in the promises that Paul quoted in Romans 15:9-12.

  1. The Jews glorify God among the Gentiles (Rom. 15:9, quoting Ps. 18:49).
  2. The Gentiles rejoice with the Jews (Rom. 15:10, quoting Deut. 32:43).
  3. All the Jews and Gentiles together praise God (Rom. 15:11, quoting Ps. 117:1).
  4. Christ shall reign over Jews and Gentiles (Rom. 15:12, quoting Isa. 11:10).
Romans 15:8 covers the period of the gospels and Acts 1–7. Romans 15:9 describes the ministry of Paul as he witnessed among the Gentiles. Romans 15:10 could be applied to the church council in Acts 15 when the Gentiles were given equal status “with his people.” Today, Jews and Gentiles in the church are praising God together.

The word trust at the end of Romans 15:12 is actually the word for hope. At one time the Gentiles were “without hope” (Eph. 2:12 niv), but now in Christ they have hope. Not only do believers have hope, but they also have joy and peace and power (Rom. 15:13). The Holy Spirit of God shares these blessings with them as they yield to Him.

Because the Jewish Christians were faithful to take the gospel to the Gentiles, the nations of the world today have the opportunity to trust Christ as Savior.
Copyright © Warren W. Wiersbe. Generously provided by David C. Cook. See all the volumes in the BE Bible Study Series in the Bible Gateway Store.
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where does Nineveh fit in?
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
Or I could go to the nt and prove my point

ps. Abraham was not a jew. nor was he Israel.. Israel was one of his grandsons. Nor did he have the law..

Rom 4: 9. does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 ;Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
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Abraham is listed as the patriarch of the Jewish ✡️ nation along with Isaac and Jacob. Abraham is the first Jew ✡️.
Shalom
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
Abraham is the father of the jewish nation. But he was the father of many nations..

he was not the first jew. A jew is a person who lived in the southern kingdom of Judah after the split of Israel into two kingdoms
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Here's why Abraham is considered the first Jew:
  • Rejected Polytheism: Abraham grew up in a society that worshipped idols. He rejected these beliefs and recognized the existence of one God.
  • Covenant with God: God made a covenant, or agreement, with Abraham, promising him numerous descendants and the land of Canaan as an eternal inheritance. This covenant forms the foundation of the special relationship between the Jewish people and God.
  • Observance of Mitzvot: Abraham took upon himself the observance of certain divine commandments (mitzvot), including circumcision at the age of 99, as commanded by God. This act of circumcision (Brit Milah) remains a key ritual in Judaism today.
  • Father of the Jewish Nation: Through his son Isaac, Abraham became the progenitor of the Jewish nation, also known as the Israelites or the Children of Israel.
In essence, Abraham's life story, as described in the Book of Genesis, outlines the foundational elements of Jewish faith and identity, including monotheism, the covenant with God, and the establishment of the Jewish people. Therefore, Abraham is revered as Avraham Avinu ("Abraham our Father") and is considered the patriarch of Judaism.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
where does Nineveh fit in?
Click to expand...
You mean God sending Jonah there to preach repentance so the people would turn from evil, sparing them from destruction?

Where does it fit in?

Are you asking why Jesus mentioned them at all? Remember Jesus initially commended the inhabitants of Nineveh for repenting at the preaching of Jonah, while condemning the Jewish leaders for resisting His own message. Matt 12:41 tells us “The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

Nineveh was used as an example. Jesus mentioned the Ninevites and their repentance, contrasting that response to the unbelief of the Pharisees and teachers of the law . “The people of Nineveh will also stand up against this generation on judgment day and condemn it, for they repented of their sins at the preaching of Jonah. Now someone greater than Jonah is here—but you refuse to repent”.

Being far greater than the prophet Jonah, Jesus had shown Himself to be the Messiah, but the Jewish people still refused to believe in Him or repent of their sin . The Ninevites had responded to God’s message delivered by a lesser man and here was God’s message delivered by the Son of God Himself.

Jonah 3:5 The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

The Ninevites during Jonah’s time, who believed God’s message and repented, will forever be remembered as a people who turned their hearts toward the Lord and believed despite their overall lack of knowledge about Him .

Yet even those in Jesus' day , who had heard and had witnessed what Jesus had done, not just the common man but even the Pharisees rejected Christ and taught against Him.
 
David Koberstein said:
Here's why Abraham is considered the first Jew:
  • Rejected Polytheism: Abraham grew up in a society that worshipped idols. He rejected these beliefs and recognized the existence of one God.
  • Covenant with God: God made a covenant, or agreement, with Abraham, promising him numerous descendants and the land of Canaan as an eternal inheritance. This covenant forms the foundation of the special relationship between the Jewish people and God.
  • Observance of Mitzvot: Abraham took upon himself the observance of certain divine commandments (mitzvot), including circumcision at the age of 99, as commanded by God. This act of circumcision (Brit Milah) remains a key ritual in Judaism today.
  • Father of the Jewish Nation: Through his son Isaac, Abraham became the progenitor of the Jewish nation, also known as the Israelites or the Children of Israel.
In essence, Abraham's life story, as described in the Book of Genesis, outlines the foundational elements of Jewish faith and identity, including monotheism, the covenant with God, and the establishment of the Jewish people. Therefore, Abraham is revered as Avraham Avinu ("Abraham our Father") and is considered the patriarch of Judaism.
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He is the father of Isreal. Of edom. And of many nations. By his seed he became the father of anyone born again and in essence all nations
 
FreeInChrist said:
You mean God sending Jonah there to preach repentance so the people would turn from evil, sparing them from destruction?

Where does it fit in?

Are you asking why Jesus mentioned them at all? Remember Jesus initially commended the inhabitants of Nineveh for repenting at the preaching of Jonah, while condemning the Jewish leaders for resisting His own message. Matt 12:41 tells us “The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

Nineveh was used as an example. Jesus mentioned the Ninevites and their repentance, contrasting that response to the unbelief of the Pharisees and teachers of the law . “The people of Nineveh will also stand up against this generation on judgment day and condemn it, for they repented of their sins at the preaching of Jonah. Now someone greater than Jonah is here—but you refuse to repent”.

Being far greater than the prophet Jonah, Jesus had shown Himself to be the Messiah, but the Jewish people still refused to believe in Him or repent of their sin . The Ninevites had responded to God’s message delivered by a lesser man and here was God’s message delivered by the Son of God Himself.

Jonah 3:5 The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

The Ninevites during Jonah’s time, who believed God’s message and repented, will forever be remembered as a people who turned their hearts toward the Lord and believed despite their overall lack of knowledge about Him .

Yet even those in Jesus' day , who had heard and had witnessed what Jesus had done, not just the common man but even the Pharisees rejected Christ and taught against Him.
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But they were gentiles which was my point
 
David Koberstein said:
D



The word Jew ✡️ doesn't necessarily mean from the tribe of Judah. There are Jews all over the world from different tribes of the 12.
For example the tribe of Levi was responsible for the tabernacle.
Shalom
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No, the word "Jew" is referring to persons from the tribe of Judah. It was later used to identify any Hebrew and descendant of Abraham.
Levite referred to a person from the tribe of Levi. Danite refers to a person of the tribe of Dan. Jew refers to someone from the tribe of Judah.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
Or I could go to the nt and prove my point

ps. Abraham was not a jew. nor was he Israel.. Israel was one of his grandsons. Nor did he have the law..

Rom 4: 9. does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 ;Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Click to expand...
No, Abraham was a Hebrew which identifies him as a descendant of Eber.

It's a pretty weak argument to identify "nations" or "all families of the earth" as Gentiles when the covenant is made by God with a man named Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13) and with his Hebrew seed. Abram and Sarai were half-brother and half-sister. You can't have two Hebrew parents birth a non-Hebrew child. Impossible. Two Russian parents birth a Russian child. Two German parent birth a German child. It is biologically impossible for two Hebrew parents to birth a non-Hebrew child. "Nations" does not immediately mean "Gentile." Israel is a Hebrew NATION. And Abraham had other children through Ishmael (twelve sons) and Esau. They were not covenant but by virtue of being a the seed of Abraham they were all blessed with faithful Abraham.

And Abraham was a Hebrew from the family of Eber, which the Hebrew receive as the father of the Hebrew people.

13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; Genesis 14:13.

12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
13 And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
14 And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:
15 And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
16 And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:
17 And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.
Genesis 11:12–17.

25 And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters.
26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran. Genesis 11:25–26.

Believe what is written. Believe the Bible. God does not lie.
Next, you're going to tell me Jesus bar Joseph was not Hebrew/Jewish.
 
jeremiah1five said:
No, the word "Jew" is referring to persons from the tribe of Judah. It was later used to identify any Hebrew and descendant of Abraham.
Levite referred to a person from the tribe of Levi. Danite refers to a person of the tribe of Dan. Jew refers to someone from the tribe of Judah.
Click to expand...
Your wrong again..
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more



noun
noun: Jew; plural noun: Jews
  1. a member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins through the ancient Hebrew people of Israel to Abraham.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
lol

wow

you have some learning to do
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You need to stop adding to God's Word and prove yourself a liar.

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

I accept the Word as written. All true believers do. It is the fakes who change God's Word, but that's only written on paper/parchment/papyrus.
I believe the Word of God in the stars. Man can't change THAT!
This picture-bible is inaccessible to man.
 
jeremiah1five said:
No, Abraham was a Hebrew which identifies him as a descendant of Eber.

It's a pretty weak argument to identify "nations" or "all families of the earth" as Gentiles when the covenant is made by God with a man named Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13) and with his Hebrew seed. Abram and Sarai were half-brother and half-sister. You can't have two Hebrew parents birth a non-Hebrew child. Impossible. Two Russian parents birth a Russian child. Two German parent birth a German child. It is biologically impossible for two Hebrew parents to birth a non-Hebrew child. "Nations" does not immediately mean "Gentile." Israel is a Hebrew NATION. And Abraham had other children through Ishmael (twelve sons) and Esau. They were not covenant but by virtue of being a the seed of Abraham they were all blessed with faithful Abraham.

And Abraham was a Hebrew from the family of Eber, which the Hebrew receive as the father of the Hebrew people.

13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; Genesis 14:13.

12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
13 And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
14 And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:
15 And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
16 And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:
17 And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.
Genesis 11:12–17.

25 And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters.
26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran. Genesis 11:25–26.

Believe what is written. Believe the Bible. God does not lie.
Next, you're going to tell me Jesus bar Joseph was not Hebrew/Jewish.
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Yes not all hebrews were of Abraham Isaac and jacob

Again a Jew is from Judah (hence the name) if you can’t get this strait you really have nothing to offer me
 
David Koberstein said:
Your wrong again..
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more



noun
noun: Jew; plural noun: Jews
  1. a member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins through the ancient Hebrew people of Israel to Abraham.
Click to expand...
That's right. It is used in general NOW to identify the Hebrew people, but specifically and correctly it refers to someone who is born of the tribe of Judah, just as Danite is from the tribe of Dan, etc.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
Yes not all hebrews were of Abraham Isaac and jacob

Again a Jew is from Judah (hence the name) if you can’t get this strait you really have nothing to offer me
Click to expand...
ALL Hebrews are of the seed of Abraham. God declares Abram (before the name change) as a Hebrew from the family of Eber, which "Jews" accept as the father of the Hebrew people because the name "Eber" means "Hebrew."

Pay attention:

Eber (pronounced AY-ber) is a significant figure in the biblical genealogies, primarily found in the Book of Genesis and 1 Chronicles. He is considered the ancestor from whom the term "Hebrew" is derived, linking him directly to the lineage of Abraham and the people of Israel.
 
jeremiah1five said:
ALL Hebrews are of the seed of Abraham.
Click to expand...
You just said Abraham was from eber. Hence all of Evers children are Hebrew. Make up your mind
jeremiah1five said:
God declares Abram (before the name change) as a Hebrew from the family of Eber, which "Jews" accept as the father of the Hebrew people because the name "Eber" means "Hebrew."

Pay attention:

Eber (pronounced AY-ber) is a significant figure in the biblical genealogies, primarily found in the Book of Genesis and 1 Chronicles. He is considered the ancestor from whom the term "Hebrew" is derived, linking him directly to the lineage of Abraham and the people of Israel.
Click to expand...
lol I know this. But it does not prove your point

Humble yourself
 

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