Thomas... My Lord and my God

[mikesw]

The best you have are isolated arguments that are contradicted by the context and grammar. These are trinitarian one verse wonders.

You have it backwards. Unitarians like you are one verse unitarians because you use John 17:3 (without v5) to interpret the whole of scripture. People who see the Triune God of scripture have many verses that show the divinity of Christ. We understand that the Triune God is not reduced to one verse.

 

[Peterlag]

I guess your words become flesh and walk among people separate from you. That is what the Word of God did before he died on the cross. It is nigh impossible to figure how you isolate John 1:1 from the first 18 verses, the last of those saying Jesus is God.

The word did not become flesh and walk around. God had a plan and a purpose which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

 

[synergy]

Good. Keep that list growing.

I could easily triple the list if I included all your Gaffes that you committed before I started creating your List of Gaffes.

You'll eventually learn the truth.

I've already learned that you're a heretic in every sense of the word and who runs away from correcting his Gaffes as quickly as his legs can carry him.

 

[Runningman]

if you try and say it refers to the Father in Titus 2:13 you are up a creek without a paddle since the appearing and coming always refers to the Son in the N.T. and never the Father.

2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus) [Granville/Sharp's]. Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior/ Lord and Savior in Peters 2nd Epistle. 2 Peter 2:20 and 2 Peter 3:18 also have the same Greek construction as 1:1 and 1:11.

But for those interested in the Greek here is the comparison of 1:1 and 1:11.


τοῦ is the same.

ἡμῶν is the same.

καὶ is the same.

Σωτῆρος is the same.

Ἰησοῦ is the same.

Χριστοῦ· is the same.

And all in the same order.

The only difference is the noun "Θεοῦ" in v.1, while "Κυρίου" is in v.11.

So if Unitarians wants to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then have to deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise they are being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive one has an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.

Peter refers to Christ as our God and Saviour- Lord and Saviour just the same as Paul in Titus 2:13 and it’s the same Greek construction in Titus 2:13 as it is in 2 Peter 1:1and 1:11.

Immediately contradicted by the very next verse. Do you understand about reading entire passages, not just single lines that seem to support your beliefs?

2 Peter 1
2Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

 

[Runningman]

I could easily triple the list if I included all your Gaffes that you committed before I started creating your List of Gaffes.

I've already learned that you're a heretic in every sense of the word and who runs away from correcting his Gaffes as quickly as his legs can carry him.

I already debunked your flimsy John 1:1 argument. Why would see the need follow me around the forum like a lost puppy for weeks, spamming the forum with the same copy & paste, if you thought you had won? You know the word is not the God, you know the word is not the creator, you know the true Light didn't come into the world until after Jesus was already 30 years old, you know that John explicitly stated the Lamb of God is a human being, that was created by God, and took a water baptism of repentence. You want it all to go away, but it won't and there is nothing you can do about it. So your strategy? Bury it and try to forget it, but don't worry, I'll be the one to remind you.

 

[Runningman]

You have it backwards. Unitarians like you are one verse unitarians because you use John 17:3 (without v5) to interpret the whole of scripture. People who see the Triune God of scripture have many verses that show the divinity of Christ. We understand that the Triune God is not reduced to one verse.

I got it correct. The Bible states that the one and only true God is the Father. John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, etc. Yes, the Bible explicitly stating the Father is the only true God gives us invincible confidence. Your ancestors learned that there is nothing they can say to change a Christian's mind about this and that stamping them out using persecution was the only option. That still didn't work. The gates of hell will not prevail against this church.

 

[Runningman]

The word did not become flesh and walk around. God had a plan and a purpose which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

Shhh... they think words are a person still. Let's break it to them gently that God's words are not a person external to Himself anymore than wisdom is a literal woman, the church a literal bride, sin a literal predator/master, death as a taunting enemy, creation as a worshiper, wealth/mammon a master, cities being females, love & mercy being active beings, etc.

The Bible is filled with personification of things like words, wisdom, or otherwise. Imagine how absurd it would be to argue that the church as a bride is a literal woman and that all men in the church are transgender as a result. Sometimes literalism can go unchecked and unchallenged. Wacko world trinitarians worshipping words as their god is just a picture of this. Notice they avoid 1John 1:1-3 like the plague because it defines the Word as a thing.

 

[mikesw]

I got it correct. The Bible states that the one and only true God is the Father. John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, etc. Yes, the Bible explicitly stating the Father is the only true God gives us invincible confidence. Your ancestors learned that there is nothing they can say to change a Christian's mind about this and that stamping them out using persecution was the only option. That still didn't work. The gates of hell will not prevail against this church.

Uh. Maybe I have to expose your imaginary world where you are Jesus telling the Pharisees of their past of killing the prophets of their ancestors. I see how you deceive yourself. There is no bloodline of true believers in Christ. But even though there were people who killed the unitarian heretics, that does not make their heresy correct now.

Your heresy leaves a trail of verses you can only explain with weak ideas or completely unaddressed all so you can deny who Christ is. Then you rejoice that those items go unanswered in your view.

 

[Runningman]

Uh. Maybe I have to expose your imaginary world where you are Jesus telling the Pharisees of their past of killing the prophets of their ancestors. I see how you deceive yourself. There is no bloodline of true believers in Christ. But even though there were people who killed the unitarian heretics, that does not make their heresy correct now.

Your heresy leaves a trail of verses you can only explain with weak ideas or completely unaddressed all so you can deny who Christ is. Then you rejoice that those items go unanswered in your view.

What I see if you have completely given up quoting the Bible because you don't have anywhere to run anymore. I have already been talking to you for months, I guess over a year now. At the beginning you quoted the Bible a lot, but not anymore. I don't remember the last time you actually talked about anything the Bible says, instead you have formed all of your arguments about your feelings/perception of me recently. I just proved to you that the Bible says the Father is the one and only true God, you attempted to brush it aside, but it's still there. Nothing has been refuted, nothing has changed.

You can't beat the bible, Mike. Many of you have tried, all of you have failed. Give up already.

 

[Peterlag]

Adam is called a“type” of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:14). The word translated as “type” in many English versions is the translation of the Greek word tupos (τύπος) which can be defined as “a type, pattern, model, or example of something else.” Although the KJV translates tuposas “figure” most of the more modern versions say “pattern” (NIV), “prototype” (HCSB), or “type” (ESV, NAB, NASB). Adam was a type, prototype, or pattern of Christ because he was fully human and began without a sin nature—and Jesus was the same: fully human and made without a sin nature. The reason no other human male after Adam could be a “type” of Christ is that we are all born with a sin nature. Adam could not be a “type” of Christ if Jesus was 100% man and 100% God because Adam did not have a “God-nature.”

 

[mikesw]

What I see if you have completely given up quoting the Bible because you don't have anywhere to run anymore. I have already been talking to you for months, I guess over a year now. At the beginning you quoted the Bible a lot, but not anymore. I don't remember the last time you actually talked about anything the Bible says, instead you have formed all of your arguments about your feelings/perception of me recently. I just proved to you that the Bible says the Father is the one and only true God, you attempted to brush it aside, but it's still there. Nothing has been refuted, nothing has changed.

you just trample over passages that you cannot explain. even when you explain verses, it is nonsensical. You do not win debates by neglecting the difficult issues.
you have not provided any decent arguments to lead us to your heresy.

You can't beat the bible, Mike.

Nope. But I can try to lead you to the Bible truths.

Many of you have tried, all of you have failed. Give up already.

Right you are impervious to the truth. Are you really wanting to remain ignorant?

 

[Runningman]

you just trample over passages that you cannot explain. even when you explain verses, it is nonsensical. You do not win debates by neglecting the difficult issues.
you have not provided any decent arguments to lead us to your heresy.


Nope. But I can try to lead you to the Bible truths.

Right you are impervious to the truth. Are you really wanting to remain ignorant?

I can explain everything in the Bible. You simply reject how these explanations co-exist with the fact that the Father is the only true God. The Father being the one and only true God is an objective statement that stings your ears and puts a bad taste in your mouth. You cannot except the entire Bible supporting the fact that the Father alone is God Almighty. You should stop treating Scripture like your enemy and try to believe it since you have decided to engage the Bible. Is that something you have considered or is it your goal to just try to debunk it?

 

[synergy]

I already debunked your flimsy John 1:1 argument.

John wrote that the Word was God and that he tabernacled as Jesus, and there is nothing you can do about that.

Why would see the need follow me around the forum like a lost puppy for weeks, spamming the forum

Your arrogance is turning into paranoia.

with the same copy & paste, if you thought you had won?

The list is live and growing, not the "same copy & paste" thanks to your refusal to deal with your Gaffes and your willingness to repeat them.

You know the word is not the God,

This is a repeat of your Gaffe #1.

you know the word is not the creator,

This is a repeat of your Gaffe #3.

you know the true Light didn't come into the world until after Jesus was already 30 years old,

This is a repeat of your Gaffe #16.

you know that John explicitly stated the Lamb of God is a human being, that was created by God,

This is a repeat of your Gaffe #2.

and took a water baptism of repentence.

It was explicitly stated that Jesus has no need of it but undertook it because of righteousness. I'm not surprised that you did not mention that but left it out for the audience to think that Jesus is just a common man needing repentance on his part.

This is your new Gaffe #24.

You want it all to go away, but it won't and there is nothing you can do about it. So your strategy? Bury it and try to forget it, but don't worry, I'll be the one to remind you.

The Internet Cloud does not bury anything nor does it forget. I suggest you deal with your Gaffes before the list hits triple digits.

List of Unitarian RunningMan's Gaffes:

1. You mistake us for Modalists by falsely accusing us that we do not differentiate between the Word and the God (the Father).
2. Your ignorance of the Greek word ἐσκήνωσεν in John 1:14.
3. You have difficulty understanding the grammatical fact that pronouns implicitly point back to the Primary Subject as their Antecedent.
4. Your categorical mistake when you think that partaking of an item transforms your nature into that item.
5. Your ignorance of the Greek word κοινωνία,
6. Your ignorance of Greek neuter pronouns in 1 John 1.
7. You said that "the Word is not actually God" which flat out contradicts John 1:1c that says "the Word was God".
8. At no time does Jesus ever has to "partake" of divine nature. That's because he is God to begin with (John 1:1c).
9. The REV translates from God only knows which originals when they dreamt up the phrase "what God was the word was".
10. Your ignorance of the Uncreated Word of God, in the OT (1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3), who came to people as a Communicative Person and who has all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...).
11. You ignore the prevailing Greco-Roman paganism at that time when you mistakenly present John 17:3 as being against Trinitarianism. You're also working backwards from John 17:3 to wipe out what John wrote in John 1:1.
12. Your attempt to rewrite John 1:1c from "the Word was God" to "the Word was godly" was denied.
13. You forget that God said "Let us make man in our Image". That proves that there are multiple Creator Persons.
14. You are denigrating God's Shekinah Light (το φως το αληθινον) that radiated out of the OT Tabernacle and out of Jesus at his Transfiguration. Just as God tabernacled and radiated his Shekinah in the OT, the Word now tabernacles and radiates his Shekinah Light as Jesus.
15. Your deliberate ignorance of the Greek word ὅραμα which means “something seen” or “spectacle.” and cancels the heretical idea that the Transfiguration event was imaginary or unreal.
16. Your denial of the Glory of God being Jesus' intrinsic Glory (John 1:14), proving once again that the Word was God.
17. Your refusal to understand how the Greek word ἐρχόμενον (coming) (in John 1:9) aligns perfectly with Jesus' Kenosis.
18. You don't believe Jesus when he declared that he can resurrect himself. In fact, Jesus has full.authority over life and death by being "The Resurrection and The Life" (John 11:25).
19. Unitarians will be the ones in heaven refusing to offer worship towards the Father's Throne because of Jesus' presence on that Throne.
20. You are ignorant of the fact that belief that Jesus is Lord (translated from Yahweh in the LXX) is required for our salvation.
21. You are ignorant of the fact that there are Bible version that do capitalized the Word in the Bible.
22. You conflate both old and new covenants and you have no appreciation of why Jesus is the one and only Mediator between God and men. Hint: John 1:1c and the rest of the Bible.
23. If Jesus was not God, as you claim, Jesus' statement in John 14:1 would be blasphemous according to Jer. 17:5–7.
24. Your desperate attempt to portray Jesus as just a common man when you left out the part that he personally had no need of the baptism of repentance.

 

[Runningman]

John wrote that the Word was God and that he tabernacled as Jesus, and there is nothing you can do about that.

Your arrogance is turning into paranoia.

The list is live and growing, not the "same copy & paste" thanks to your refusal to deal with your Gaffes and your willingness to repeat them.

This is a repeat of your Gaffe #1.

This is a repeat of your Gaffe #3.

This is a repeat of your Gaffe #16.

This is a repeat of your Gaffe #2.

It was explicitly stated that Jesus has no need of it but undertook it because of righteousness. I'm not surprised that you did not mention that but left it out for the audience to think that Jesus is just a common man needing repentance on his part.

This is your new Gaffe #24.

The Internet Cloud does not bury anything nor does it forget. I suggest you deal with your Gaffes before the list hits triple digits.

List of Unitarian RunningMan's Gaffes:

1. You mistake us for Modalists by falsely accusing us that we do not differentiate between the Word and the God (the Father).
2. Your ignorance of the Greek word ἐσκήνωσεν in John 1:14.
3. You have difficulty understanding the grammatical fact that pronouns implicitly point back to the Primary Subject as their Antecedent.
4. Your categorical mistake when you think that partaking of an item transforms your nature into that item.
5. Your ignorance of the Greek word κοινωνία,
6. Your ignorance of Greek neuter pronouns in 1 John 1.
7. You said that "the Word is not actually God" which flat out contradicts John 1:1c that says "the Word was God".
8. At no time does Jesus ever has to "partake" of divine nature. That's because he is God to begin with (John 1:1c).
9. The REV translates from God only knows which originals when they dreamt up the phrase "what God was the word was".
10. Your ignorance of the Uncreated Word of God, in the OT (1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3), who came to people as a Communicative Person and who has all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...).
11. You ignore the prevailing Greco-Roman paganism at that time when you mistakenly present John 17:3 as being against Trinitarianism. You're also working backwards from John 17:3 to wipe out what John wrote in John 1:1.
12. Your attempt to rewrite John 1:1c from "the Word was God" to "the Word was godly" was denied.
13. You forget that God said "Let us make man in our Image". That proves that there are multiple Creator Persons.
14. You are denigrating God's Shekinah Light (το φως το αληθινον) that radiated out of the OT Tabernacle and out of Jesus at his Transfiguration. Just as God tabernacled and radiated his Shekinah in the OT, the Word now tabernacles and radiates his Shekinah Light as Jesus.
15. Your deliberate ignorance of the Greek word ὅραμα which means “something seen” or “spectacle.” and cancels the heretical idea that the Transfiguration event was imaginary or unreal.
16. Your denial of the Glory of God being Jesus' intrinsic Glory (John 1:14), proving once again that the Word was God.
17. Your refusal to understand how the Greek word ἐρχόμενον (coming) (in John 1:9) aligns perfectly with Jesus' Kenosis.
18. You don't believe Jesus when he declared that he can resurrect himself. In fact, Jesus has full.authority over life and death by being "The Resurrection and The Life" (John 11:25).
19. Unitarians will be the ones in heaven refusing to offer worship towards the Father's Throne because of Jesus' presence on that Throne.
20. You are ignorant of the fact that belief that Jesus is Lord (translated from Yahweh in the LXX) is required for our salvation.
21. You are ignorant of the fact that there are Bible version that do capitalized the Word in the Bible.
22. You conflate both old and new covenants and you have no appreciation of why Jesus is the one and only Mediator between God and men. Hint: John 1:1c and the rest of the Bible.
23. If Jesus was not God, as you claim, Jesus' statement in John 14:1 would be blasphemous according to Jer. 17:5–7.
24. Your thinking that Jesus is just a common man needing repentance on his part.

I've been here for over a year. Your list of my talking points debunking trinitarianism should be in the thousands by now. Your homework assignment is to quadruple that list by the weekend. Thanks in advance.

 

[synergy]

I've been here for over a year. Your list of my talking points debunking trinitarianism should be in the thousands by now.

Let's see how you can possibly debunk any of your listed Gaffes. Or are you going to run away from them once more?

 

[Runningman]

Let's see how you can possibly debunk any of your listed Gaffes. Or are you going to run away from them once more?

Already read your list of "gaffes" as you call them. I have completely debunked all of these at one point or another. I want you to follow me around for a few more weeks taking notes. You have work to do, trin, get to it.

 

[mikesw]

I can explain everything in the Bible. You simply reject how these explanations co-exist with the fact that the Father is the only true God. The Father being the one and only true God is an objective statement that stings your ears and puts a bad taste in your mouth. You cannot except the entire Bible supporting the fact that the Father alone is God Almighty. You should stop treating Scripture like your enemy and try to believe it since you have decided to engage the Bible. Is that something you have considered or is it your goal to just try to debunk it?

Sure you can explain everything. The problem is that your explanations are not logical or sufficient. You have skipped the main challenges against your view or given weak explanations.
Of course God is only one. that is the reason we know Jesus is within that Godhead.
If you can come up with reasonable arguments, start doing that. Otherwise, stop rejecting the passages pointing to the divinity of Christ and his pre-existence. Until then you are hardly a trusted source for interpretation of scripture.

 

[Runningman]

Sure you can explain everything. The problem is that your explanations are not logical or sufficient. You have skipped the main challenges against your view or given weak explanations.
Of course God is only one. that is the reason we know Jesus is within that Godhead.
If you can come up with reasonable arguments, start doing that. Otherwise, stop rejecting the passages pointing to the divinity of Christ and his pre-existence. Until then you are hardly a trusted source for interpretation of scripture.

Try me. I will add zero commentary and paste straight scripture from your preferred version to answer any question you have. I'll prove you to be an atheist when you reject what the Bible says. You won't be able to blame me anymore. Now go for it.

 

[brightfame52]

Two different persons as I already proved. Read my comment again. You're a little behind the curve. God brings Jesus... so the glorious appearing is of two, not one.

1 Thessalonians 4
14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

No it doesnt, because there is only one definite article for Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,

 

[brightfame52]

Evasion. God can enable men like Peter and Jesus to search hearts. Saints are going to do judging too.

1 Corinthians 6
2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

This shows that you dont really care about scripture evidence on the Deity of Christ as God