The Water Baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13

[Doug Brents]

Again, you are hard of hearing

Does it say they EARNED SALVATION by WORKS?

No! Your issue is you do not understand what a work is.

A person calling on someone to rescue them is not them earning salvation. They did not MERIT salvation. the person who saved them MERITS the glory

Of course He does. Confessing Jesus as Lord does not merit salvation by Him. But it IS required to receive it. It is just like your children asking for a candy but not saying "please". You have the candy in your hand. You are holding it out to them. But you do not give it to them until they "ask nicely" and say "Please." Saying "please" does not "earn" the candy, nor does it merit the candy, but you are teaching your child to be polite and courteous. God demands a similar thing from us. He demands that we verbally and publicly confess Jesus as Lord before He gives us the salvation that He purchased for us.

 

[mailmandan]

@mailmandan
You can "wow" my comments all you want, but that doesn't change the truth in them.

Your Campbell's soup theology is not truth.

 

[Doug Brents]

Your Campbell's soup theology is not truth.

It is the "easy believism" nonsense that you preach that is not truth. Without faith there is no salvation. You think faith is a cheap, watery, passive, internal, mental-only exercise, but nothing could be further from the truth than this. Faith requires action or it isn't real, and you think that an unreal faith can save you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It is the "easy believism" nonsense that you preach that is not truth. Without faith there is no salvation. You think faith is a cheap, watery, passive, internal, mental-only exercise, but nothing could be further from the truth than this. Faith requires action or it isn't real, and you think that an unreal faith can save you.

Is faith easy? At times it is. At times it is not.

Jesus said that learning of Him results in "easy burdens".

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I don't like the phrase "easy believism" for this reason.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It is the Spirit's residence in a person's heart that marks him as belonging to Christ.
Just having the Spirit empowering you with miraculous power (which He can do to anyone and anything) does not indicate salvation.

Really?

Act 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
Act 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The thief on the cross is not an example of NT conversion. He was promised salvation BEFORE Jesus died, before the Old Covenant was canceled, while Jesus could still change His will (last will and testament)(Heb 9:17).

Really? You really believe Jesus could change His will?

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Heb 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

While God can do anything, He is constrained by His Character. He can't lie. What you said would result in God lying.

You are still speaking as if "believe" meant to them what it means in America today. But it did NOT!! When Jesus said "pistis" (which many versions of Scripture translate as "believe") they heard "faith". And they understood that faith is not just a passive, internal, mental-only concept. Faith requires action for it to be effective; if it has no action then it is dead and worthless.

The "action" part isn't the issue here. It is what you require in that action. Faith moves toward God. Faith is expressed in words of both remorse and emotional embracing Christ.

I am not twisting anything. Yes, the people listening to Him knew what He was saying; He was saying "faith", not "intellectual assent".

A fifth or sixth grader would easily explain what the modern American definition of "believe" is, but very few people (in my experience) understand the Biblical meaning of it. They think like you do that it means "intellectual assent", but that is a far cry from the truth.

It includes a "intellectual assent". You can't remove this from belief. You must understand the language of men and observe nature itself to "mentally assent/know" the very framework of faith. Sure it is more but you need to stop this attack on "mental assent". Don't listen to what you've heard.

Yes, being born again is being united with Christ, His death, His resurrection, His bride. And as Scripture says, this occurs DURING water baptism.

Do you care to have a dedicated debate on the subject. I can destroy you argument in just a few posts.

The new birth takes place through water and the Spirit. It does not happen with just the Spirit and then water comes later.

All of Israel was baptized in the sea and in the cloud. Israel well understood the meaning of baptism. I don't think you understand why Jesus told His disciples to baptize.

Do you remember the fact that Jesus sent His disciples to Israel first? Jews need to hear the complete Gospel. That included the Resurrection. It included the baptism that Jesus taught beside John The Baptist.

There is a reason that Paul didn't seek to baptize among Gentiles.

 

[Doug Brents]

Is faith easy? At times it is. At times it is not.

Jesus said that learning of Him results in "easy burdens".

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I don't like the phrase "easy believism" for this reason.

"Easy believism" is in reference to the fact that people like mailmandan think that "believing" is just a mental exercise that does not require any physical action. Biblically, nothing could be further from the truth, but they refuse to accept that fact.

Really?

Act 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
Act 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Precisely. The Holy Spirit working through Paul to empower even handkerchiefs and aprons to cure disease and cast out evil spirits demonstrates that the actions of the Holy Spirit do not necessarily indicate salvation in the person receiving His actions.

Really? You really believe Jesus could change His will?

Absolutely I do. He did it several times as recorded in the OT.

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Heb 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

While God can do anything, He is constrained by His Character. He can't lie. What you said would result in God lying.

No, it would not result in His lying. Jesus had the authority to forgive sin on His own authority while He was alive on Earth (Matt 9:6, Luke 5:24). So He had the authority and power to forgive the thief on the cross right then. And this was before His death, so the New Covenant was not in effect yet. This would be like a rich man on his death bed giving away a prized possession to someone not mentioned in his will just before he dies. The will is not in effect yet, so the prized possession is still under his authority to give away even though the disposition of the item is different from what the will might say.

The "action" part isn't the issue here. It is what you require in that action. Faith moves toward God. Faith is expressed in words of both remorse and emotional embracing Christ.

That is not the only action of faith that Scripture requires. Rom 10:9-10 says that the verbal confession of Jesus as Lord is required to receive salvation. Acts 3:19 says that repentance is required in order to receive salvation. Acts 2:38 says that baptism is required to receive salvation. Yes, emotions are certainly probable, but they are not commanded as essential, nor is there any emotion that is mandatory to receive salvation.

It includes a "intellectual assent". You can't remove this from belief. You must understand the language of men and observe nature itself to "mentally assent/know" the very framework of faith. Sure it is more but you need to stop this attack on "mental assent". Don't listen to what you've heard.

I am not attacking intellectual assent. Sure it is necessary, but it is not ALL that is necessary. Faith requires both intellectual assent and action in response to that assent.

Do you care to have a dedicated debate on the subject. I can destroy you argument in just a few posts.

You would be debating against Scripture and against God. Give it your best shot.

All of Israel was baptized in the sea and in the cloud. Israel well understood the meaning of baptism. I don't think you understand why Jesus told His disciples to baptize.

Do you remember the fact that Jesus sent His disciples to Israel first? Jews need to hear the complete Gospel. That included the Resurrection. It included the baptism that Jesus taught beside John The Baptist.

There is a reason that Paul didn't seek to baptize among Gentiles.

Paul did baptize among the Gentiles. There is only one salvation, and only one way to receive it. It is not one way for Jews and a different way for Gentiles.

 

[praise_yeshua]

"Easy believism" is in reference to the fact that people like mailmandan think that "believing" is just a mental exercise that does not require any physical action. Biblically, nothing could be further from the truth, but they refuse to accept that fact.

Precisely. The Holy Spirit working through Paul to empower even handkerchiefs and aprons to cure disease and cast out evil spirits demonstrates that the actions of the Holy Spirit do not necessarily indicate salvation in the person receiving His actions.

Okay. I didn't understand your point. I don't know what this means exactly. I'm not sure why you're reference this fact. God has designed this body to heal itself.

Absolutely I do. He did it several times as recorded in the OT.

A change of mind isn't a change of Character. I choose my words wisely (for the most part).

No, it would not result in His lying. Jesus had the authority to forgive sin on His own authority while He was alive on Earth (Matt 9:6, Luke 5:24). So He had the authority and power to forgive the thief on the cross right then. And this was before His death, so the New Covenant was not in effect yet. This would be like a rich man on his death bed giving away a prized possession to someone not mentioned in his will just before he dies. The will is not in effect yet, so the prized possession is still under his authority to give away even though the disposition of the item is different from what the will might say.

So lets go with this... I understand your argument but you're missing the benevolence of God here in forgiving others. Are you still going to die? The work of the Spirit of God doesn't immediately fix death. Please reconsider your conclusion. Even though we have received the promises, NONE OF US are without each other.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

That extends to a future time where we are all gathered "under His wings" in the future. If you insist on talking about completeness in Christ. Please don't ignore this fact in your theological conclusion.

That is not the only action of faith that Scripture requires. Rom 10:9-10 says that the verbal confession of Jesus as Lord is required to receive salvation.

Understand why confession is required. Some confess Jesus Christ and have no idea WHO.... He is. Now, I'm not saying that doesn't mean anything. I believe it does. However, the reason confession is required is because there is an agreement upon WHO... Christ Jesus is. That agreement comes through a proper confession. It is not just confessing the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 3:19 says that repentance is required in order to receive salvation. Acts 2:38 says that baptism is required to receive salvation. Yes, emotions are certainly probable, but they are not commanded as essential, nor is there any emotion that is mandatory to receive salvation.

I'd say you're on of those that haven't had an emotional experience in repentance. It is okay. Just be honest and admit it. I repented many times before I did. I had no idea what repentance meant. I was told I just needed to be sorry. To "change my mind".

However, it is more complicated than this. It was more complicated for Israel than it is/was for Gentiles. Israel had promises and they rejected Messiah. As such, they had to embrace their rejection. That is what repentance is about. It is about recognize what we are. About recognizing what we have done and what it meant not only to us but to every person in our relationships. It is about our history and our fathers. I had to learn repentance. It wasn't my way. It is God's way. Also, repentance is approved by God. There must come a point in a person's life where GOD accepts your repentance. YOU and GOD must agree with one another. Repentance is personal. It is all about relationship. You go to God and when you get it right..... God agrees with you.

I am not attacking intellectual assent. Sure it is necessary, but it is not ALL that is necessary. Faith requires both intellectual assent and action in response to that assent.

What action are you adding. I talked about words and loyalty.

You would be debating against Scripture and against God. Give it your best shot.

You've already lost....

I can tell you have little idea of what I'm saying. That is good and bad but lets... move forward. I want you to engage what I'm saying. Don't "hand wave" at me as if it means nothing. Pay attention to what I'm saying.

Paul did baptize among the Gentiles. There is only one salvation, and only one way to receive it. It is not one way for Jews and a different way for Gentiles.

Show me where Paul baptized Gentiles. We can start there... Go for it.

Also, for your understanding. When Paul preached to Greeks as recorded in Acts 17, tell me what verses of the OT Paul preached to them?

 

[mailmandan]

It is the "easy believism" nonsense that you preach that is not truth. Without faith there is no salvation. You think faith is a cheap, watery, passive, internal, mental-only exercise, but nothing could be further from the truth than this. Faith requires action or it isn't real, and you think that an unreal faith can save you.

Easy believism? Faith involves trust and reliance and not mere mental assent belief and real faith results in producing actions but don't put the cart before the horse. You seem to believe that hard believism/salvation by works can save you but it can't. Salvation by grace through faith not works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT.

 

[MTMattie]

He did indeed command water baptism, and as is made very clear by Him (John 3:5) and His Apostles (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21, etc.) water baptism is the act of faith during which salvation is received.

 

[Doug Brents]

Okay. I didn't understand your point. I don't know what this means exactly. I'm not sure why you're reference this fact. God has designed this body to heal itself.

Sure He designed this body to heal itself, but we are not talking about the body. We are talking about miracles done by the Holy Spirit in a person. The fact that a person is empowered by the Holy Spirit does not indicate that person's salvation or lack thereof. The Holy Spirit can act through both saved and unsaved people. He can empower saved and unsaved people. The fact that Cornelius spoke in tongues has no bearing on whether he was saved at that point or not.

A change of mind isn't a change of Character. I choose my words wisely (for the most part).

First you say will, then character and mind. Which is it you are talking about? God can and did change His will (as in last will and testament), that is why there is an OLD testament and a NEW testament. The NT was sealed with Jesus' blood, and as Hebrews says, a will can be changed as long as the testator lives, but after he dies the will cannot be changed (Heb 9). Up until Jesus died, He could give what was rightfully within His authority as He saw fit.

So lets go with this... I understand your argument but you're missing the benevolence of God here in forgiving others. Are you still going to die? The work of the Spirit of God doesn't immediately fix death. Please reconsider your conclusion. Even though we have received the promises, NONE OF US are without each other.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

That extends to a future time where we are all gathered "under His wings" in the future. If you insist on talking about completeness in Christ. Please don't ignore this fact in your theological conclusion.

What are you talking about? This has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said.

Understand why confession is required. Some confess Jesus Christ and have no idea WHO.... He is. Now, I'm not saying that doesn't mean anything. I believe it does. However, the reason confession is required is because there is an agreement upon WHO... Christ Jesus is. That agreement comes through a proper confession. It is not just confessing the name of Jesus Christ.

I agree, but that verbal confession MUST still come before salvation is received. It is a prerequisite for receiving God's gift of salvation. And this completely eliminates the argument that many make that Eph 2:8-9 means that there is no physical human action required to receive salvation.

I'd say you're on of those that haven't had an emotional experience in repentance. It is okay. Just be honest and admit it. I repented many times before I did. I had no idea what repentance meant. I was told I just needed to be sorry. To "change my mind".

However, it is more complicated than this. It was more complicated for Israel than it is/was for Gentiles. Israel had promises and they rejected Messiah. As such, they had to embrace their rejection. That is what repentance is about. It is about recognize what we are. About recognizing what we have done and what it meant not only to us but to every person in our relationships. It is about our history and our fathers. I had to learn repentance. It wasn't my way. It is God's way. Also, repentance is approved by God. There must come a point in a person's life where GOD accepts your repentance. YOU and GOD must agree with one another. Repentance is personal. It is all about relationship. You go to God and when you get it right..... God agrees with you.

Sure repentance can have an emotional component, but it is not an emotion, nor does it have to have an emotion attached to it. As Jesus said, the one who is forgiven much will love much, but the one who is forgiven little will love little. I know I have been forgiven very much. I also know that there is no sin that is greater or lesser than any other. All sin is a violation of God's Law, and violation of even the smallest part is a violation of the whole (James 2:10).

What action are you adding. I talked about words and loyalty.

I am adding nothing. God specified three actions (although repentance may not be considered by some to be an action) that lead to/result in receiving salvation: repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism in water (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21).

Show me where Paul baptized Gentiles. We can start there... Go for it.

1 Cor 1:14

Also, for your understanding. When Paul preached to Greeks as recorded in Acts 17, tell me what verses of the OT Paul preached to them?

Let's see:
He starts in Gen 1:1 with God making the whole world.
Then he says that God gives life to all things which is said in Deut 32:39.
Then in Deut 4:29 God says that man should seek Him and find Him.
Then he quotes from the Gentile's poets who, speaking about Zeus, said that we are his children (but Paul turns that to speaking about God.
These are just some of the OT passages that he references obliquely. Ii am sure there are more, but I haven't really gone through and cross-referenced all the passages he may have referenced from the OT in his sermon.

 

[Doug Brents]

Easy believism? Faith involves trust and reliance and not mere mental assent belief and real faith results in producing actions but don't put the cart before the horse. You seem to believe that hard believism/salvation by works can save you but it can't. Salvation by grace through faith not works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT.

It must be hard for you to understand, because you keep getting it wrong. Faith MUST have intellectual assent AND action or it is not real, and an unreal faith cannot bring salvation from God to us (which is what faith does, as Eph 2:8-9 says).

It is not that we have intellectual assent and from that we receive salvation, and then we go out and do works because we have received salvation.
Both intellectual assent and action must be present before salvation is received, or it is not received at all.

 

[mailmandan]

It must be hard for you to understand, because you keep getting it wrong. Faith MUST have intellectual assent AND action or it is not real, and an unreal faith cannot bring salvation from God to us (which is what faith does, as Eph 2:8-9 says).

It is not that we have intellectual assent and from that we receive salvation, and then we go out and do works because we have received salvation.
Both intellectual assent and action must be present before salvation is received, or it is not received at all.

That is salvation by faith and works in a nutshell in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Like I said. Cart before the horse. Roman Catholics make the same error.

 

[Doug Brents]

That is salvation by faith and works in a nutshell in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Like I said. Cart before the horse. Roman Catholics make the same error.

No dan, that is not salvation by faith and works. You still misunderstand what faith really is, and that is what prevents you from seeing the truth. Satan has done a great job in hiding the truth from the world, and you have been caught up in his lie.

 

[MTMattie]

praise_yeshua said:
Show me where Paul baptized Gentiles. We can start there... Go for it.

1 Cor 1:14

@Doug Brents

1 side remark... then I'm gone.

All the evidence adds up to the fact that Paul only baptized Jews. Let’s examine this.

When it comes to our Paul and water baptism, the very first thing that we need to ask is: Does he ever command us, as members of the Church of this present Dispensation of Grace, the Body of Christ, Jews and Gentiles in one body by the cross, to water baptize in any of his 13 epistles. And the answer is no!

Paul never commands us to water baptize. In fact, every time Paul mentions water baptism anywhere in the bible, even outside of his epistles, it is in relation to the Nation of Israel (the Jews), and not to us Gentiles.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Sure He designed this body to heal itself, but we are not talking about the body. We are talking about miracles done by the Holy Spirit in a person. The fact that a person is empowered by the Holy Spirit does not indicate that person's salvation or lack thereof. The Holy Spirit can act through both saved and unsaved people. He can empower saved and unsaved people. The fact that Cornelius spoke in tongues has no bearing on whether he was saved at that point or not.

Give me a example of Satan's people speaking in tongues. Now realize that tongues is a heavenly language. "Former staff" means what to you?

You can agree with me here but I'm making a point. Cornelius wasn't a "former staff" member.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

For Jesus at least, during his baptism he received the Holy Spirit. I wouldn't call the receiving of the Holy Spirit a "works".

Ahh I see, Jesus needed saved?

No he did not need saved, it was to reveal who Jesus was or more importanly, it was to reveal the messiah

as john tells us.

John:
31 I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”

32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”

 

[praise_yeshua]

First you say will, then character and mind. Which is it you are talking about? God can and did change His will (as in last will and testament), that is why there is an OLD testament and a NEW testament. The NT was sealed with Jesus' blood, and as Hebrews says, a will can be changed as long as the testator lives, but after he dies the will cannot be changed (Heb 9). Up until Jesus died, He could give what was rightfully within His authority as He saw fit.

No. God can certainly change His mind. A change of "mind" doesn't change the IMMUTTABILITY of God.

When MAN changes, God changes HIS MIND about man. You pass from death to life. God never changes. We do.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Again you fail to understand what faith is. Baptism is an act of faith. It is THE act of faith that puts us in contact with the blood of Christ through which the Holy Spirit unites us with Jesus' death and resurrection.

Your right, it is an ACT. It is a WORK OF FAITH, just like all the other WORKS we are commanded to do.

Non of which save us..

Not of works. lest anyone should boast.

why do you boast in your baptism?? Then Claim it was God?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Of course He does. Confessing Jesus as Lord does not merit salvation by Him. But it IS required to receive it. It is just like your children asking for a candy but not saying "please". You have the candy in your hand. You are holding it out to them. But you do not give it to them until they "ask nicely" and say "Please." Saying "please" does not "earn" the candy, nor does it merit the candy, but you are teaching your child to be polite and courteous. God demands a similar thing from us. He demands that we verbally and publicly confess Jesus as Lord before He gives us the salvation that He purchased for us.

ITS NOT A WORK.,

HE COULD NOT BOAST THAT HE SAVED HIMSELF.

Unlike you, who boast continuously of your work of water baptism, which saved you.