Doug Brents
Active Member
If a sikh were born again, he would cease to be a sikh. You cannot follow two masters. And again, just ceasing to be violent does not mean that you are in Christ.
The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
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Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Hi Doug
A Sikh who has been transformed into a new man is obviously following just one master: Christ.
If you start saying that ceasing to be violent, lustful, arrogant, selfish, etc. to become peaceful, pure, humble, generous, does not mean a person is in Christ, then you would have to admit that Satan is able to operate sanctification, which is obviously absurd.
God's grace is a gift, not a reward for our intellectual merits in understanding Theology.
God's grace is a gift, not an article Christians buy in exchange for an oral confession and baptism. That would be superstition, and Paul did not teach a superstition when he spoke about declaring with the mouth that Jesus is Lord.
"Demons" can confess Jesus is Lord, and they know that God raised him from dead. However, by definition salvation is not for "demons".
Let's examine the context in which Paul spoke about the verbal confession and salvation:
Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"
When Paul speaks about confession with your mouth, he is speaking in the context of the Jewish-Greek conflict. They despised each other, and Paul was telling them that since both confessed the same Master, they both were saved, and any dipute between them would be absurd.
Please read the epistle for Romans all over again. The epistle is founded upon the need to solve the Jewish-Greek conflict. It is mainly a pastoral epistle, not a theological treatise.
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Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
I agree. Just don't accuse the Sikh of faking the fruit of the spirit. If the fruit of the Sikh is good, he has been born again in Christ.
We are not still in sin (spiritually dead) if we are spiritually alive. And we know we are spiritually alive because we are living a life of love.
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. (1 John 3:14)
I agree. Just don't accuse the Sikh of appearance.
It would be not only rationally absurd, but morally evil to accuse people from other religions of exhibiting pure hypocrisy or appearance of good.
Living Jesus' kind of life means being in Christ and saved. This is the ultimate test, Doug.
Read with me: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. (1 John 2:6)
Do you remember why those people will be rejected by Jesus? Perhaps because they didn't adhere to the doctrines of Jesus' deity, PSA or physical resurrection, or Sola Scriptura? Nope. I invite you to read what Jesus said: ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers! (Matthew 7:23). So, if the Sikh is not an evildoer, he is not among those who Jesus will say "I never knew you".
I also invite you to read Mathew 25:31-46. Will the sheep be separated from the goats based on who believed in the doctrine of Trinity or Penal Substitutionary Atonement or Sola Scriptura? Will they be separated based on who believed Muhammed was a Messenger from God and who rejected that idea?
Doug Brents
Active Member
A sikh who is transformed by Christ is no longer a sikh.
No, that is not the case at all. Satan cannot "operate sanctification", but he can masquerade, pretend, mimic a sanctified life, and he can cause his followers to mimic a sanctified life as well.
All of this is true, but irrelevant to the conversation.
There are indeed many aspects of Romans that relate to the conflict between Jews and Gentiles. But again, this has nothing to do with this conversation.
His fruit may appear good, but it is completely rotten inside if he has not been born again, in which case he is no longer a sikh but a follower of Christ.
Again, the ability to love is not exclusive to Christ followers. EVERYONE has the capacity to love (Luke 6:32). There is a love, greater than what those who are lost can experience, that flows out from those who are saved. And this love is only found in those who have been born again. But those who worship other gods (JWs, mormons, sikh, muslums, etc.) cannot experience this love. There is no salvation found in these religions because they deny Jesus.
that is not absurd or morally evil. It is simply truth.
This verse does not say what you think it says. It is saying that if you claim to be in Him but don't live as He lived, then you are lying to yourself, to the world, and to Him. If you claim to be in Him, then you must live as He lived. It does not mean that all who live as He lived are in Him.
Go back and read what these people did. They did great works in Jesus' name, lived as He lived, and served in His name for a lifetime. Yet all that they did is still considered "evildoing" because they were not really in Christ.
If you are in Christ, you can build a house of mud and filth and it will be a golden palace.
If you are not in Christ, you can build a house of gold and diamonds and it will be nothing but a pile of dung.
Nope, they will be separated based upon who was in Christ and who was not.
This is true. From the very beginning, satan has "Professed to know God", and certainly has transformed itself (a deceiving spirit) into an apostle of Christ. And the Prophesied Messiah, recognized as such by nearly every religious organization of this world, told us that the most popular, "mainstream" religious organization of HIS Time, who professed to know God, were children of this deceiving spirit.
I think you expose an important truth here that Paul also exposed. "Demons" or deceiving spirits, truly confess Jesus is Lord. They can become humble, generous, peaceful and kind. As Paul teaches, "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light".
"Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according "to their works".
So then, satan and those who adopt its judgments, its high days and its images of God, can profess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, and can transform themselves into apostles of Christ, and can become "Angels of Light", they can "Prophesy in Christ's Name". They can do many wonderful charitable works, in Christ's Name. They can profess to "Cast out demons" all in Christ's Name.
And yet according to the Words of the Prophesied Messiah Himself, as spoken in the Bible, they are "Not in Christ". In fact, HE doesn't even know them.
Jesus and the Law and Prophets warn about this over and over.
Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that "no man" deceive you. 5 For many shall come "in my name", saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Notice my friend, that HE doesn't speak about murderers, thieves or drug dealers here.
Now that we have established the basis in which Paul is speaking, we can understand him more perfectly.
For me, this means that I am not capable of Loving others with the Love God intended, if I don't know God or His Definition of "Love". This is why "Seeking God's Righteousness" is essential for Salvation, at least according to the words of the apostle you are quoting.
Jesus says, "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
But if a man adopts the religious philosophies of this world's many religious organizations, that the Bible warns us about over and over, then this man's zeal for God "is not based on knowledge".
It is important to understand the Truth of this passage. Paul is speaking of Israel here, who was "shown" God's Righteousness. They were told; "But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul". But they didn't believe Him, and refused to submit unto the Righteousness of God, choosing instead to walk after their own righteousness. As Jesus tells us. Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep "your own tradition".
Isaiah and Ezekiel speak to this.
Ez. 20: 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.
21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.
So yes, they had a zeal for God, "But not after knowledge". A knowledge available to all men.
Yes, I need look no further than Jesus, to know what to eat, what to drink, what is Holy, what is Good, what God to worship and how to worship Him, and how to pray, etc.
I need not look to any other.
How do I know if I am in Christ and not just deceived by the "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, that Jesus warned me about?
1 John 2: 3 And hereby "we do know" that we know him, if we keep "his commandments".
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso "keepeth his word", in him verily is the love "of God" perfected: "hereby know we" that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so "to walk", even as he walked.
Did Jesus reject His Father's judgements, and create His own? Did HE adopt the religious philosophies of the world that God placed Him in?
He did not. So if I "walk as Jesus walked", am I not "In Him"? And if I have heard about God's Righteousness, but choose to adopt the righteousness created by men who "Profess to know God, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but are disobedient to Him", what does that make me? Certainly not "Christ-Like".
This would be "Believing" what HE said to do, Yes?
This was because they went about to establish their own righteousness, not because they "Believed" God's "instruction in righteousness". Please consider what the God and Father of us all to Israel.
Lev. 19: 33 And if a stranger (Non-Jew) sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and "thou shalt love him as thyself"; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
And again;
Is. 56: 6 Also "the sons of the stranger", that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
So yes, the religious tradition of the mainstream, God of Abraham professing religious organization of Paul's Time, refused to Submit to God's Righteousness, and went about establishing their own. Salvation is of the Jews, according to the Christ. And a Jew is a faithful believer "of the heart", not of the flesh.
So their manmade judgments concerning gentiles, were truly absurd, as they were a repudiation of God's Own Commandments.
I think this is an important truth of the Bible to accept so as to understand Paul's teaching.
Romans was written to show why the mainstream religious organization of that time, the Pharisees and Sadducees, were rejected by God.
Rom. 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
These religious zealots reasoned in their own human mind, "what is righteousness, what is Holy, what is clean", and polluted God's definition of these instructions HE gave them, choosing instead to "live by" and promote a righteousness founded in the imagination of their own hearts.
This is the foundation of all wickedness, and we are warned in the very beginning about these things.
Gen. 3: 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Imagine her life if she had just "Glorified God, "as God", instead of seeking the "other voice" in the garden God placed her in.
We don't have to imagine, there are examples of folks all over the Bible who engaged in what is known as "Faith" in God. The kind of Faith Jesus had. But most folks really don't believe what is written in the Scriptures, or at least much of what is written.
I love the topics you pursue and the questions you ask. They are real, and relevant, and are uncomfortable to ponder sometimes. Sorry such a long post, but I truly love to ponder such things.
Dizerner
Active Member
And where, exactly, do you see the need for internal work of grace in the heart that Dr. Flowers mocks as "mystical zapping"?
Can you point that out for me?
Because to accuse an honest statement as slander is itself a form of slander.
civic
Active Member
Flowers affirms a preceding grace in salvation why falsely accuse him ?
Dizerner
Active Member
Because I'm not falsely accusing him, and I know his position better than you do.
I've seen him say hundreds of times he denies the need for internal grace which he constantly mocks along with Warren McGrew.
It's true not everyone has watched him as much as I have, and many make assumptions about his beliefs.
You can watch his interview with Roger Olson, but there are hundreds of clips one could show.
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Dizerner
Active Member
Okay, straight from the Flower's mouth.
- YouTube
Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
www.youtube.com
WORD FOR WORD:
"I don't think it requires some internal working of the Spirit that's supernatural and mysterious for someone to come to faith. I think the external means are sufficient..."
A godly person would apologize for slandering me.
That is what a godly person would do.
civic
Active Member
Do you deny the gospel is Gods grace ? yes or no
What he denies like I do is there is no regenerating grace before salvation, the new birth takes place. Thee word of God is the grace God uses with the unregenerate sinner.
wrong the gospel is preceding grace which convicts the heart of sin. the gospel is the means used by God via His grace. That is Biblical and written all over the pages of scripture.
and I believe the exact same thing- its the word of God that causes the new birth as Peter declares in his epistle. Its the gospel preached. This is Gods grace which precedes salvation with the conviction of sin.
you sound like the calvinist who makes flowers their boogie man, scapegoat by falsely accusing him. I know what he believes better than you do I guarentee that just like I know MacArthurs beliefs better than calvinists online.
FYI- you are barking up the wrong tree since I believe much like Leighton. We were both former calvinists remember. I have his books, I've read them and listened to his podcasts for years. I know what he believes regarding salvation and grace.
1 Peter 1:23-25
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For,
“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.
James sayss the same thing below:
James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.
And Paul
Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
hope this helps !!!
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Dizerner
Active Member
Let's have a fact check, since you are so fond of them. You replied with this statement to my post:
The key difference between Arminianism and Provisionism is their denial of Preceding Grace, the need for an internal work in the heart to be saved.
Do you now ACCEPT that is the KEY difference between the positions, and I was NOT "poisoning the well" by merely pointing that out? How am I "poisoning the well" by stating that there is a fundamental difference between the positions?
YOU are "poisoning the well" by falsely claiming that I am doing it.
civic
Active Member
I addressed it in my previous post.
synergy
Active Member
I agree. God has already graced each and every one of us with a mind, will, conscience, heart that can be receptive to the word of God. There is no extra zappings required for one to come to faith.Okay, straight from the Flower's mouth.
- YouTube
Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
WORD FOR WORD:
"I don't think it requires some internal working of the Spirit that's supernatural and mysterious for someone to come to faith.
Hearing the word of God is the means by which we come to faith in Christ. If that's what Flowers means then I agree.
civic
Active Member
Readers please see what Leighton Flowers actually believes below. Its exactly what I have said he believes.
soteriology101.com
Prevenient Grace: An Arminian Error
Why I Prefer Not To Be Called An Arminian: I’ve often told people that I am not an Arminian, but that is not because I dislike Arminians; nor is it because we disagree over that many issues. In fac…
soteriology101.com
Dizerner
Active Member
I deny that the intellectual information of the words of the Bible are God's grace.
So does the Bible:
or our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit (1 Thess. 1:5 NKJ)
According to Paul, the external means of a "word only" Gospel is not the real Gospel, and denies the power of the Holy Spirit.
The letter kills, but THE SPIRIT gives life.
Words alone are powerless and do nothing.
And the power of the Holy Spirit is "written all over the pages of Scripture."
NOTHING I said was a false accusation.
I backed up my statements WITH DIRECT QUOTATIONS FROM FLOWERS.
EVERYTHING you've accused me of as been a FALSE accusation.
You have provided NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE that what I claimed was false, you just slandered me.
Why do I care if you're a Leighton fan boy?
I am here to speak the truth, not pander to people's emotional attachments.
And the truth is what was spoken by me.
God will witness on that day.
civic
Active Member
Amen its exactly what He believes. Like Paul is Romans 1:16 declares- its the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Peter in 1 Peter 1:23 declares it is the cause of the new birth/regeneration. Its 100% Gods grace.
Dizerner
Active Member
Of course I'm saddened you accept Flower's deceptions in his denial of our need for God's internal grace, and embrace his proposition of self-righteousness that humans do not need this help from God.
However, please realize, the point here is not whether you agree with Flowers, but whether civic has slandered and falsely accused my depiction of what Dr. Flowers actually says, and that is the subject currently.
civic
Active Member
wow you heard it hear first from the horses mouth. Denying the power of the gospel unto salvation as per Paul in Romans 1:16-17, Romans 10:9-17, 1 Peter 1:23, James 1:18.
And denying Jesus teaching in many places as to what the word of God does in the heart of man behind the scenes as taught in nHis many parables, especially the parable of the sower.
Gods grace- the word of God,, the gospel message
Mans responsibility- to believe or reject the gospel
God saves the man who believes the gospel.
No zapping required
No regeneration required to believe the gospel
hope this helps !!!
Dizerner
Active Member
NOT IN WORD ONLY, is what the Bible says.
So YOU are the one DENYING the power of the Holy Spirit, and claiming words are enough without him.
"wow you heard it here"
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