The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

[Doug Brents]

Please consider,
The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion by a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Claiming to only follow what GOD said without thinking is most often the hubris of the very young, it sounds oh so holy.

Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions. All theology as choosing between options by liking some ideas and not liking others is by eisegesis...

Of course there must be thinking involved in following God. No one here has ever claimed that we follow God without thinking.

Exegesis is the comparison of a particular verse with other verses that speak on the same topic. No single verse stands alone in Scripture. Where a single verse may be open to multiple interpretations, multiple verses which explain each other and give further insight into the meaning of each other lead to but a single possible interpretation.

 

[synergy]

God, at least the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, doesn't dwell in temples made of wood and stone. So yes, if the Temple promotes for doctrines the traditions, commandments and philosophies of men, we should come out of that man-made shrine of worship made of wood and stone.

God gave instructions on how his Temple Holy of Holies would contain images of Cherubim Angels. Are you saying that those instructions were "man-made"? If not man made then there is a place for images.

This is true. God made us, we didn't create ourselves.

Good. Another vote for images, us in this case, being good in the sight of God.

And HE gave us His Judgments. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth".

God is a Spirit, and Jesus said that "True worshippers" worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. God made men. But this world's religious sects and businesses created the following graven images, after their own likeness. God did not make these images of Himself after the likeness of men. Rather, they were created by men who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate". By "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord but work iniquity. You are free to engage in this popular religious behavior, as Solomon was also enticed to do. But God has already promised the outcome of such behavior. And I believe Him.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth".

I get that each religious sect will defend and promote their adopted image of God in the likeness of man. But how is one adopted image of God any different than the others? Do you think that just because men call their image, "Jesus", that they are above the Commandment?

If you look at Ex 20:4 in the Septuagint, it is very instructive that it does not talk about images/icons but of idols (εἴδωλον). So it's idols that we should always guard ourselves against, not necessarily always against all images/icons.

(Ex 20:4) οὐ ποιήσεις σεαυτῷ εἴδωλον οὐδὲ παντὸς ὁμοίωμα ὅσα ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ ἄνω καὶ ὅσα ἐν τῇ γῇ κάτω καὶ ὅσα ἐν τοῖς ὕδασιν ὑποκάτω τῆς γῆς.

So there you have it, not all images/icons are to be smashed. Those who smash all icons are called iconoclasts.

 

[Studyman]

God gave instructions on how his Temple Holy of Holies would contain images of Cherubim Angels. Are you saying that those instructions were "man-made"? If not man made then there is a place for images.

Where are the Cherubim angels that were in Solomon's Temple you are defending? Where is the Temple you are defending? Yes, that is right. God destroyed them. Why???? Because the men who were supposed to teach about the Symbolism of this temple as it pertains to the mind of man, adopted the philosophies of this world's religious sects and businesses. Look, you go right ahead and promote your God as an incredibly handsome, long haired man that walks around with his arms stretched out.

I was simply showing God's Law against such behavior.

Good. Another vote for images, us in this case, being good in the sight of God.

It seems important to know the difference between what God creates, and what man creates to represent Him. But I get it, this world's religious sects and businesses are truly seductive, and Jesus said that "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord, would partake of them.

If you look at Ex 20:4 in the Septuagint, it is very instructive that it does not talk about images/icons but of idols (εἴδωλον). So it's idols that we should always guard ourselves against, not necessarily always against all images/icons.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

It seems clear why God forbids men to create images and say they are Him, since He is a Spirit. I find it fascinating your attempts to justify man-made statues of some random man, who ancient Catholics say is an image of their God. You seem to be saying that it's OK to build, create or adopt an image of God, as long as you don't worship it. But if I had a statue of the man Buddha in my home, you would consider it an Idol.

I know how popular religious symbols and bumper stickers are in this world and they have been promoted by this world's religious sects and businesses since the Tower of Babel. But who are they for? Are they for God? Do you wear these religious symbols so God can see you? No Synergy. If you were honest, you would have to admit they are used, worn, displayed to be seen by men, not God.

Jesus didn't teach anything like this, and the Gospel of Christ forbids such behavior as "Hypocritical". And HE said, "Be ye not therefore like unto them".

Are these worldly religious images so precious to men that they would transgress God's Commandments that they might partake of such religious traditions?

(Ex 20:4) οὐ ποιήσεις σεαυτῷ εἴδωλον οὐδὲ παντὸς ὁμοίωμα ὅσα ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ ἄνω καὶ ὅσα ἐν τῇ γῇ κάτω καὶ ὅσα ἐν τοῖς ὕδασιν ὑποκάτω τῆς γῆς.

So there you have it, not all images/icons are to be smashed. Those who smash all icons are called iconoclasts.

That is your justification. And I don't advocate "Smashing" anything except the doctrines and philosophies of this world's religious sects that may still linger in the Temple of God, which is in my mind. I believe Paul addressed this very thing.

2 Cor. 6: 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

A statue that this world's religious system calls their God, is an idol by definition.

Maybe it doesn't matter that you partake in this world's popular religious tradition of creating images and then telling others this image is an image of your God.

But the entire Bible teaches against such a behavior. What I advocate is that you think about it my friend. Who are the "Many" who Jesus warned about, that calls Him Lord, Lord, that "Come in His Name" to deceive. Would it not be a religious system that creates images of God in the likeness of some men's hair shampoo model? A religious system that rejects the Fests of the Lord, and cr5eates their own high days?

Shall we not believe "ALL" of the Sayings of the Christ, and then strive to walk in them?

 

[synergy]

Where are the Cherubim angels that were in Solomon's Temple you are defending? Where is the Temple you are defending? Yes, that is right. God destroyed them. Why???? Because the men who were supposed to teach about the Symbolism of this temple as it pertains to the mind of man, adopted the philosophies of this world's religious sects and businesses. Look, you go right ahead and promote your God as an incredibly handsome, long haired man that walks around with his arms stretched out.

I was simply showing God's Law against such behavior.

Where were they? In the Holy of Holies. There was no holier place on Earth. So you're against that which is Holy to God. Got it.

As far as destroying the Temple, it was man's fault, not the fault of the Cherubim images. Stop promoting the destroying of icons, aka: iconoclasm.

It seems important to know the difference between what God creates, and what man creates to represent Him. But I get it, this world's religious sects and businesses are truly seductive, and Jesus said that "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord, would partake of them.

You continue to uplift that we are made in the image of God. Good! That's another vote for images.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

If you want to stick with mistranslations that are at least 2300 years removed from the LXX OT Text which were approved by the Alexandrian Jews themselves then suit yourself. I gave you the proper translation of Ex 20:4 and you disregard it at your own risk.

It seems clear why God forbids men to create images and say they are Him, since He is a Spirit.

You forget Jesus who is both Spirit and man.

I find it fascinating your attempts to justify man-made statues of some random man, who ancient Catholics say is an image of their God. You seem to be saying that it's OK to build, create or adopt an image of God, as long as you don't worship it. But if I had a statue of the man Buddha in my home, you would consider it an Idol.

It would be an idol if a Buddhist worships it. I don't see it as a problem if you kept the statue as a souvenir and never gave it disrespect in front of a Buddhist.

I know how popular religious symbols and bumper stickers are in this world and they have been promoted by this world's religious sects and businesses since the Tower of Babel. But who are they for? Are they for God? Do you wear these religious symbols so God can see you? No Synergy. If you were honest, you would have to admit they are used, worn, displayed to be seen by men, not God.

I wear a cross under my shirt. What's wrong with that? Are you against crosses also?

Jesus didn't teach anything like this, and the Gospel of Christ forbids such behavior as "Hypocritical". And HE said, "Be ye not therefore like unto them".

Are these worldly religious images so precious to men that they would transgress God's Commandments that they might partake of such religious traditions?

Where does it say not to wear crosses or anything else that reminds us of God? Produce the verses. Sounds like you are a JW or a Mormon. Are you one?

That is your justification. And I don't advocate "Smashing" anything except the doctrines and philosophies of this world's religious sects that may still linger in the Temple of God, which is in my mind. I believe Paul addressed this very thing.

You weren't saddened when God's Temple was "destroyed". Sound like you are a smasher at heart.

2 Cor. 6: 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

The Word "idol" and "image" are not synonymous. Can you understand that fact?

A statue that this world's religious system calls their God, is an idol by definition.

How can a statue that displays Jesus' open armed acceptance of all those who believe in Him possibly be an idol? An idol is exactly what anti-Christians would just love for you to believe.

Maybe it doesn't matter that you partake in this world's popular religious tradition of creating images and then telling others this image is an image of your God.

The Cross is an image of God's eternal love for us. Muslims just hate that image. They would love to enroll you in their drive to exterminate Christianity.

But the entire Bible teaches against such a behavior. What I advocate is that you think about it my friend. Who are the "Many" who Jesus warned about, that calls Him Lord, Lord, that "Come in His Name" to deceive. Would it not be a religious system that creates images of God in the likeness of some men's hair shampoo model? A religious system that rejects the Fests of the Lord, and cr5eates their own high days?

The Bible doesn't teach to embrace those who would want to smash Holy of Holies images, or images of God (us), or images of Christianity such as the Cross.

Shall we not believe "ALL" of the Sayings of the Christ, and then strive to walk in them?

Absolutely.

 

[Studyman]

Where were they? In the Holy of Holies. There was no holier place on Earth. So you're against that which is Holy to God. Got it.

As far as destroying the Temple, it was man's fault, not the fault of the Cherubim images. Stop promoting the destroying of icons, aka: iconoclasm.

You continue to uplift that we are made in the image of God. Good! That's another vote for images.

If you want to stick with mistranslations that are at least 2300 years removed from the LXX OT Text which were approved by the Alexandrian Jews themselves then suit yourself. I gave you the proper translation of Ex 20:4 and you disregard it at your own risk.

You forget Jesus who is both Spirit and man.

It would be an idol if a Buddhist worships it. I don't see it as a problem if you kept the statue as a souvenir and never gave it disrespect in front of a Buddhist.

I wear a cross under my shirt. What's wrong with that? Are you against crosses also?

Where does it say not to wear crosses or anything else that reminds us of God? Produce the verses. Sounds like you are a JW or a Mormon. Are you one?

You weren't saddened when God's Temple was "destroyed". Sound like you are a smasher at heart.

The Word "idol" and "image" are not synonymous. Can you understand that fact?

How can a statue that displays Jesus' open armed acceptance of all those who believe in Him possibly be an idol? An idol is exactly what anti-Christians would just love for you to believe.

The Cross is an image of God's eternal love for us. Muslims just hate that image. They would love to enroll you in their drive to exterminate Christianity.

The Bible doesn't teach to embrace those who would want to smash Holy of Holies images, or images of God (us), or images of Christianity such as the Cross.

Absolutely.

Your image of God in the likeness of some handsome, long-haired man, is not Holy, according to God. You were born into a world is which religious sects and businesses exist who have created these images and have declared them holy. These same religious businesses have created their own high days and declared them holy. Their own Judgments and declared them holy. While judging God's definition of Holy as irrelevant. And the Feasts of the Lord as unholy and not worthy of respect.

Caleb was born into the same world in which these worldly religious sects and businesses existed but came out of them. Jesus was born into this same world but "Yielded Himself" to God, and didn't adopt their religious traditions. I too, was born into this same world with the same religions, but have "come out of her" as the Jesus "of the bible" instructs.

You have chosen to defend and promote the religious businesses of this world, and their definition of what is "Holy".

I wanted to share with you the perspective of someone who no longer partakes of this world's religions whose high days, judgments and images of God have made the merchants of this world rich.

While God's judgments concerning what is Holy, and the Feasts of the Lord that Jesus Lived, and instructed men to live by, are despised and trampled underfoot like dung.

Thanks for the discussion, I'm sure you will want the last word.

 

[civic]

Your image of God in the likeness of some handsome, long-haired man, is not Holy, according to God. You were born into a world is which religious sects and businesses exist who have created these images and have declared them holy. These same religious businesses have created their own high days and declared them holy. Their own Judgments and declared them holy. While judging God's definition of Holy as irrelevant. And the Feasts of the Lord as unholy and not worthy of respect.

Caleb was born into the same world in which these worldly religious sects and businesses existed but came out of them. Jesus was born into this same world but "Yielded Himself" to God, and didn't adopt their religious traditions. I too, was born into this same world with the same religions, but have "come out of her" as the Jesus "of the bible" instructs.

You have chosen to defend and promote the religious businesses of this world, and their definition of what is "Holy".

I wanted to share with you the perspective of someone who no longer partakes of this world's religions whose high days, judgments and images of God have made the merchants of this world rich.

While God's judgments concerning what is Holy, and the Feasts of the Lord that Jesus Lived, and instructed men to live by, are despised and trampled underfoot like dung.

Thanks for the discussion, I'm sure you will want the last word.

fallacy alery- every man in made in the image/likeness of God which is the one and only reason man is redeemable. Gods love for mankind is special over all creation which includes the unredeemable angels who sinned.

 

[Studyman]

fallacy alery- every man in made in the image/likeness of God which is the one and only reason man is redeemable. Gods love for mankind is special over all creation which includes the unredeemable angels who sinned.

And what is the "Image of a Spirit"?

Who is the "unredeemable angel" who sinned? Is it not the "prince of this world"? And what spirit would promote the creation of an image of God after the likeness of anything on earth or in the heavens?

Of course you are only here to promote your specific religious business, so sadly discussions such as these are not possible.

Nevertheless, it is better to seek God's wisdom, in my view, than to seek constantly seek justification for the traditions of this worlds religious system.

 

[civic]

And what is the "Image of a Spirit"?

Who is the "unredeemable angel" who sinned? Is it not the "prince of this world"? And what spirit would promote the creation of an image of God after the likeness of anything on earth or in the heavens?

Of course you are only here to promote your specific religious business, so sadly discussions such as these are not possible.

Nevertheless, it is better to seek God's wisdom, in my view, than to seek constantly seek justification for the traditions of this worlds religious system.

wrong the bible / God declares man was made in the image and likeness of God. I'm sorry that you reject the truth in exchange for your false philosophical view which is human reasoning apart from the spirit of truth.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Doug Brents]

Of course you are only here to promote your specific religious business, so sadly discussions such as these are not possible.

What "business" are we here to promote? You keep using that phrase, but I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[synergy]

Your image of God in the likeness of some handsome, long-haired man, is not Holy, according to God. You were born into a world is which religious sects and businesses exist who have created these images and have declared them holy. These same religious businesses have created their own high days and declared them holy. Their own Judgments and declared them holy. While judging God's definition of Holy as irrelevant. And the Feasts of the Lord as unholy and not worthy of respect.

Caleb was born into the same world in which these worldly religious sects and businesses existed but came out of them. Jesus was born into this same world but "Yielded Himself" to God, and didn't adopt their religious traditions. I too, was born into this same world with the same religions, but have "come out of her" as the Jesus "of the bible" instructs.

Jesus did not "come out of" the Temple that housed Cherubim and other images/symbols. Your white washing paint brush is much too wide.

You have chosen to defend and promote the religious businesses of this world, and their definition of what is "Holy".

I wanted to share with you the perspective of someone who no longer partakes of this world's religions whose high days, judgments and images of God have made the merchants of this world rich.

While God's judgments concerning what is Holy, and the Feasts of the Lord that Jesus Lived, and instructed men to live by, are despised and trampled underfoot like dung.

Thanks for the discussion, I'm sure you will want the last word.

The images/icons/symbols I advocate are only the ones that assist us in our walk with God. As such, not all images/icons/symbols should be eradicated, only the ones that misrepresent Jesus in one form or another. So images/icons should not be willy nilly created for singular nonethical purposes like profit. They should properly represent Jesus and what he did for our salvatiion. If you eradicate those ones then you're falling into the hands of iconoclasts like JWs.

 

[civic]

What "business" are we here to promote? You keep using that phrase, but I do not think it means what you think it means.

as if he gets a free pass/exemption with his unitarian religious beliefs.

there is a word for this- its called hypocrisy- the way of the religious pharisee as we read in the N.T.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Please consider,
The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion by a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Claiming to only follow what GOD said without thinking is most often the hubris of the very young, it sounds oh so holy.

Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions. All theology as choosing between options by liking some ideas and not liking others is by eisegesis...

"To me" is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what you think. What matters is what God said. God said that all evil will spend all of eternity in Hell with Satan.

Evil cannot be measured on its own. Like darkness can only be measured by the amount of light present, and coldness can only be measured by the amount of heat present, you can only measure evil by the amount of goodness present (or lack thereof). In Heaven, there will be NO evil; in Hell there will be NO good.

Hi @TedT and @Doug Brents

We all have a Bible at home and can read it and know what it says without the need of coming to the Forum. Do you agree?
The point of participating in a Forum is to know what you think, what I think, what everyone thinks.

In my opinion, one thing is to read the Bible, and another different thing is to understand what God says and wants. To do that, we have to listen to the Holy Spirit, speaking to our reason and our heart.

As you can read in the footnote of my posts, whatever I post in this Forum is my personal view of things. I don't speak on behalf of God, the Bible, the Baha'i Faith, or any organization. I just speak my mind. That's all.

 

[Doug Brents]

Hi @TedT and @Doug Brents

We all have a Bible at home and can read it and know what it says without the need of coming to the Forum. Do you agree?
The point of participating in a Forum is to know what you think, what I think, what everyone thinks.

In my opinion, one thing is to read the Bible, and another different thing is to understand what God says and wants. To do that, we have to listen to the Holy Spirit, speaking to our reason and our heart.

As you can read in the footnote of my posts, whatever I post in this Forum is my personal view of things. I don't speak on behalf of God, the Bible, the Baha'i Faith, or any organization. I just speak my mind. That's all.

You are correct that you must have the Holy Spirit's influence and guidance to understand a good bit of what is in Scripture. Jesus couched all of His teaching in parables, so that without the Holy Spirit's guidance we cannot understand His points (Mark 4:11-12). You do not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit, for He only indwells those who are in Christ, and you have stated previously that you know that you are not in Christ. Thus, you have a human's insight into the Word, but you do not have the Spirit's insights, which means that you are coming to this forum unarmed, and you personal views are worthless.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You are correct that you must have the Holy Spirit's influence and guidance to understand a good bit of what is in Scripture. Jesus couched all of His teaching in parables, so that without the Holy Spirit's guidance we cannot understand His points (Mark 4:11-12). You do not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit, for He only indwells those who are in Christ, and you have stated previously that you know that you are not in Christ. Thus, you have a human's insight into the Word, but you do not have the Spirit's insights, which means that you are coming to this forum unarmed, and you personal views are worthless.

I do not think your personal views are worthless.
That is why I read you, and reply to your posts.

Your statement points out to the very interesting reflection of how we know we have been born again, and therefore how we know we are guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Studyman]

wrong the bible / God declares man was made in the image and likeness of God. I'm sorry that you reject the truth in exchange for your false philosophical view which is human reasoning apart from the spirit of truth.

hope this helps !!!

It seems to me that God is free to create any image HE wants, and we are free to create many things in this life. But to create an image of Him in the likeness of anything on earth or heaven, HE forbids. It's in your own Bible, but like the Jesus of the bible warns, there are "many" who call Him Lord, Lord, that simply doesn't believe Him. So, they create an image of God that aligns better with their lusts and desires. This is why Jesus said to "Come out of her", the "her" being the "course/religions of this world" that have created their own image of God in the likeness of man, their own judgements and their own high days that the merchants of this world have used to create massive wealth. While God's Judgments and Commandments and definition of Holy, are trampled under feet by the same men. Men who justify their rejection of God's Word that Jesus said for men to live by, by offering the Blood of His own innocent Son to Him, according to the Law of God, to justify themselves. No different than the Pharisees did with the blood of innocent beings to justify themselves.

Jesus didn't promote such a behavior, this and Paul didn't do this either. But you, and the religions of this world you have adopted and are now promoting do.

I know your mission here is to preserve, defend and promote your specific religious business, as you compete with Calvinists and other religious sects of this world for contributing members. Without which your religious business would fail, and you would not be able to do all the "many wonderful works" your religious business does "in Christ's Name".

But the Gospel of the Christ "of the Bible" doesn't promote the rejection of God's Word. The "other voice" in the garden God placed us in does.

I simply advocate the Belief in the Christ "of the bible" and to trust Him enough to actually "DO" what HE instructs, as opposed to just hearing Him, or praising God with your lips to be seen of men.

Clearly Jesus, the Jesus "of the Bible", was not a universalist. But HE was a Unitarian.

John 4: 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for "the Father seeketh such to worship him". 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This is why I asked the question that your master's will not let to answer. "What is an image of a Spirit"?

And if you don't know, then Jesus is right once again, " Ye worship ye know not what".

 

[synergy]

It seems to me that God is free to create any image HE wants, and we are free to create many things in this life. But to create an image of Him in the likeness of anything on earth or heaven, HE forbids. It's in your own Bible,

Produce the verse. Does the verse say idol or image/icon in the original language. Be careful not to conflate the two.

but like the Jesus of the bible warns, there are "many" who call Him Lord, Lord, that simply doesn't believe Him. So, they create an image of God that aligns better with their lusts and desires.

Those images are not a true representation of Jesus and should be discarded. It seems to me that what you wish to do is to discard all images and all symbols like the Cross which is iconoclastic at its core.

This is why Jesus said to "Come out of her", the "her" being the "course/religions of this world" that have created their own image of God in the likeness of man, their own judgements and their own high days that the merchants of this world have used to create massive wealth. While God's Judgments and Commandments and definition of Holy, are trampled under feet by the same men. Men who justify their rejection of God's Word that Jesus said for men to live by, by offering the Blood of His own innocent Son to Him, according to the Law of God, to justify themselves. No different than the Pharisees did with the blood of innocent beings to justify themselves.

Jesus never said to come out of the Temple that housed images of the Cherubim, made by human hands. Your iconoclasm breaks down here.

Jesus didn't promote such a behavior, this and Paul didn't do this either. But you, and the religions of this world you have adopted and are now promoting do.

I know your mission here is to preserve, defend and promote your specific religious business, as you compete with Calvinists and other religious sects of this world for contributing members. Without which your religious business would fail, and you would not be able to do all the "many wonderful works" your religious business does "in Christ's Name".

But the Gospel of the Christ "of the Bible" doesn't promote the rejection of God's Word. The "other voice" in the garden God placed us in does.

I simply advocate the Belief in the Christ "of the bible" and to trust Him enough to actually "DO" what HE instructs, as opposed to just hearing Him, or praising God with your lips to be seen of men.

Clearly Jesus, the Jesus "of the Bible", was not a universalist. But HE was a Unitarian.

John 4: 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for "the Father seeketh such to worship him". 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

You forget that Jesus, as God the Son, is both Spirit and man.

This is why I asked the question that your master's will not let to answer. "What is an image of a Spirit"?

Jesus is the perfect Image of God. There you have it.

And if you don't know, they Jesus is right once again, " Ye worship ye know not what".

Besides the profiteers who you pointed out before, the iconoclasts (JWs for example) are in the wrong also.

 

[Studyman]

What "business" are we here to promote? You keep using that phrase, but I do not think it means what you think it means.

Come on now Doug. You really don't know what religious business you are here to promote?

Here is just one popular religious business that is promoted by some. You can see how it is run. The religious business Civic is promoting has the same practice. JW, SDA, Catholic, Armenian, they are all become a religious business selling a specific religious philosophy and competing against other religious businesses for contributing members, without which their business would cease to exist.



There are schools to teach men how to start and manage a religious business. You can own your own religious franchise of the Baptist, or Methodist, or JW, as long as you get a certificate from one of their approved religious schools to show you how to properly promote their specific religious philosophies. Lots of websites for the very purpose of managing a religious business.

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There are videos showing a person how to make money by owning a religious business, promoting religious traditions etc.

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Some of the older religious businesses have become massive empires, cashing in on the man-made high days and their religious traditions that have created so much wealth for the merchants of this world. The Catholic empire is a massive business with fingers into banking, finance, school, healthcare, etc. SDA is a 24/7 religious empire invested in schools, banking, finance, healthcare and real estate etc.

Arminianism has perfected the use of the internet to promote and expand their particular religious philosophy. "got Questions" and the BBS are hugely profitable web sites created to compete against Calvinism and other religious businesses for the purpose of promoting their specific religious philosophy.

Truly this world's religious system is big money and "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord are and have cashed in.

But the Jesus "of the Bible" said not to be like unto these hypocrites who create these religious businesses with their man-made shrines of worship to be seen and heard of men.

This chaotic religious system of competing religious businesses has no foundation in the Holy scriptures. There is only ONE Body, One Lord, and ONE God and Father of all. Not hundreds of competing religious businesses.

Sadly, like the religious business of the Pharisees, the promoters of this world's religions are so invested in the philosophies and traditions of their particular religious sect they cannot turn away from it and turn to God. Such a move requires faith in God, which requires belief in God.

The religion itself becomes the god that they "Yield themselves" servants to obey. Paul speaks to this in Romans 6:13-23.

Jesus tries to tell them that you can't serve a religion that rejects many of God's Judgments while creating their own judgments and high days, and serve the One True God at the same time.

Matt. 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

He goes on to say, "33 But seek ye first the kingdom "of God", (Not man) and "his" righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (What to eat, what to drink and what covering to wrap yourself with)

I advocate that men turn away from this world's religious system, and turn to God as Jesus instructs. I know this religious system is an offence that must come, just as the serpent in the garden. But we don't have to adopt their philosophies like Eve did. As Paul also tells us.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".

 

[synergy]

Jesus tries to tell them that you can't serve a religion that rejects many of God's Judgments while creating their own judgments and high days, and serve the One True God at the same time.

Matt. 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

He goes on to say, "33 But seek ye first the kingdom "of God", (Not man) and "his" righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (What to eat, what to drink and what covering to wrap yourself with)

I advocate that men turn away from this world's religious system, and turn to God as Jesus instructs. I know this religious system is an offence that must come, just as the serpent in the garden. But we don't have to adopt their philosophies like Eve did. As Paul also tells us.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".

So what's your blue print to accomplish all that the Bible tells us to do? Which Bible version do we read? Which church do we attend? Which ordinance do we acknowledge? And on and on ...

 

[Studyman]

Produce the verse. Does the verse say idol or image/icon in the original language. Be careful not to conflate the two.

Lev. 26: 1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven "image", neither rear you up a standing "image", neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. 2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD. 3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; 4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.

Duet. 4: 15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of "any figure", "the likeness of male or female",

Duet. 16: 22 Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.

Rom. 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God "into an image made like to corruptible man", and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Those images are not a true representation of Jesus and should be discarded. It seems to me that what you wish to do is to discard all images and all symbols like the Cross which is iconoclastic at its core.

Of course, men's religious images are precious to them, just as they were to the Egyptians. I don't believe that taking an ancient pagan symbol like a cross or fire or a fish, and placing Jesus Name on it, makes it Holy. Just as I don't believe taking ancient Pagan religious high days and placing Jesus Name on them, makes them Holy. But a lot of the promoters of this world's religions, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, are convinced that it does. And the merchants of this world certainly wax rich peddling these images, and promoting these ancient Pagan high days introduced into "Christianity" by a sun worshipper.

I am used to being called names and labeled by this world's religious promoters. Clearly, according to your religion, God was an iconoclastic at His core.

Ex. 23: 24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. 25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.

Ex. 34: 12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: 13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

Num. 33: 51 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; 52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all "their" high places:

Deut. 7: 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

You are free to adopt and promote the religious traditions of the world God placed you in if you want. And maybe HE doesn't care anymore. But what if He does care, given Paul's warning about changing the Glory of a God who is a Spirit, into an image of God in the likeness of some random long-haired handsome man?

Why would His People do such a thing, given all His instruction against such behavior. Jesus certainly didn't. My guess is that when you meet God, you won't call Him an iconoclastic to His face, as you have called me for believing Him.

Jesus never said to come out of the Temple that housed images of the Cherubim, made by human hands. Your iconoclasm breaks down here.

LOL, God destroyed that Temple. Jesus said He would. Here is the Jesus "of the bible's" Words that direct my feet.

Matt. 6: 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, (Not the Temple where the hypocrites pray) and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

I already showed you the promise God made to the builder of this Temple. Your religious philosophy implies that Jesus wasn't aware of that promise. I think your adopted religious leaders have led you astray. I would advocate reading about the building of this Temple for yourself, and you will find why John the Baptist didn't preach the Gospel of Christ in it. Why Jesus ran the mainstream preachers of His time out of it, and why this temple no longer stands.

You forget that Jesus, as God the Son, is both Spirit and man.

He is no longer Human. I am always fascinated by this world's religious promoters, that they claim to know what Jesus is right now.

1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and "it doth not yet appear" what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be "like him"; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

So John, who knew the Christ, didn't know what Jesus was in His Ascension. But a religion that rejects God's Judgments, rejects His Feasts, creates and promotes their own high days and creates their own images of God in the likeness of men, "Do know" what Jesus is now.

Truly fascinating.

Jesus is the perfect Image of God. There you have it.

What is an image of a Spirit? Are you saying that the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, is a handsome white man, with long flowing hair?

"For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him".

Who is this god you promote, with his hands outstretched over Rio De Janeiro?

Besides the profiteers who you pointed out before, the iconoclasts (JWs for example) are in the wrong also.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified "in thy sayings", and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I'm bowing out of this discussion, as both you and I have made our positions clear. I don't want to derail my friend Pancho's Thread, any more than I already have.

And to the extent that I have, I apologize to Pancho.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Come on now Doug. You really don't know what religious business you are here to promote?

Hi Studyman

I think this topic is quite interesting and perhaps you should think in opening a thread about it.
All civil organizations require funds to operate: non-gubernamental organizations, clubs, associations, etc. That doesn't make them a "business" because they don't do it for profit.
So, I can't accuse any religious association to be a "business" only because members contribute financially to its projects and overall cause.

However, I do agree with you that many churches or religious associations behave like a business.
Churches in which few leaders seek keep control over the minds and pockets of their sheep and expand the size of the flock to increase their income.

*********

Is the Baha'i Faith a business? Well, I would put under your consideration these elements:

• No baha'i, whatever their role in the community, is permitted to request another baha'i to contribute, or reveal their contributions.
• No baha'i can accept contributions from a non-baha'i, even if the intentions seem to be good.
• There is no clergy among baha'is. Although missions that require full time of service may be partially funded for a limited time, nobody can expect to make their living from contributions from baha'is.
• Membership of spiritual assemblies (the government structures at city or national level) is refreshed frequently (elections are held once a year) and no baha'i, as an individual, has authority over any other baha'i in matters of faith.
• Aggressive proselytizing is not part of baha'i missionary outreach. You won't see baha'is knocking at the doors or bothering people when they are busy. We prefer to lead by example and, when circumstances are favorable, open conversations about personal spirituality, family, community and world affairs, that may trigger interest of people to know more.
• Baha'is are not pushed to marry only baha'is.
• Baha'is who leave the Baha'i faith due to religious convictions are not ostracized, and are always welcomed to attend spiritual activities, as long as they do not directly attack the Baha'i community.