brightfame52
Active Member
All pertaining to the Regenerated saved.
The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
- Start date
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
We are going in circles.
Since it is impossible to understand how free will operates, and since it is impossible to understand how God’s grace operates, this will be a permanent theological debate.
What both sides must recognize, I guess, is that we act in our daily life as if free will existed, and we take no pride on it. We just ask God to help us to make the right choices because we know that, without God, we can’t make good choices.
We act in everyday life as if everything I ask God is something that I, an individual, am asking… and not as something that God is asking Himself through me.
Since it is impossible to understand how free will operates, and since it is impossible to understand how God’s grace operates, this will be a permanent theological debate.
What both sides must recognize, I guess, is that we act in our daily life as if free will existed, and we take no pride on it. We just ask God to help us to make the right choices because we know that, without God, we can’t make good choices.
We act in everyday life as if everything I ask God is something that I, an individual, am asking… and not as something that God is asking Himself through me.
Nope, for if you do not believe you cannot be made alive (regenerated)
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:40 (NASB 95) — 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
Scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe
Actually you show you do not believe scripture
Those who do not believe will not see life, and life comes about by regeneration, so one must first believe before regeneration.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
Thus it becomes rather clear you do not believe scripture that contradicts your theology.
Sorry but that is a falsehood
Those who do not believe will not see life, and life is by regeneration, so one must first believe before regeneration.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
One cannot have life be regenerated unless he first believes
brightfame52
Active Member
If you havent been made alive you dead and cannot believe.
brightfame52
Active Member
I have shown I do believe scripture.
Not by ignoring scripture
Those who do not believe will not see life, and life comes about by regeneration, so one must first believe before regeneration.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
Thus it becomes rather clear you do not believe scripture that contradicts your theology.
Sorry, you cannot be made alive unless you believe.
Those who do not believe will not see life, and life comes about by regeneration, so one must first believe before regeneration.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
Thus it becomes rather clear you do not believe scripture that contradicts your theology.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Can a dead person believe?
To believe we need the grace of God.
Don’t call it regeneration if you don’t want.
But a change of the heart, performed by God and not by human efforts, is needed to have faith, to repent, to desire what is good.
You may want to call it awakening… or just call it change.
Without the grace of God it is impossible to exert faith, hope or love.
Do you really think a person who is physically alive is really dead.
The prodigal son was dead to his father
Luke 15:11–32 (NASB 95) — 11 And He said, “A man had two sons. 12 The younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.’ So he divided his wealth between them. 13 And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living. 14 Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished. 15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him. 17 But when he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger! 18 ‘I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight; 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men.” ’ 20 “So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22 But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; 23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; 24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate. 25 “Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.’ 28 But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him. 29 But he answered and said to his father, ‘Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends; 30 but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.’ 31 And he said to him, ‘Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.’ ”
In a circumstance that was resolvable.
Death in such contexts denotes a relational separation.
That relational separation is resolved by faith in the son.
John 14:6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Rom 5:10–11 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
A Lexical response added
νεκρός -οῦ, ὁ; (nekros), adj. dead. Hebrew equivalent: מות (21), חָלָל (4). LTW νεκρός (Death).
Adjective Usage
1. dead — no longer having life. Sense Antonym: living (alive). Related Topics: Death; Pit; End; Perish; Afterlife; Sheol; Descent to the Underworld.
Ro 6:11 νεκροὺς μὲν τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ
Ro 8:11 ὁ ἐγείρας ἐκ νεκρῶν
Jas 2:26 ὥσπερ γὰρ τὸ σῶμα χωρὶς πνεύματος νεκρόν ἐστιν,
Re 1:5 ὁ πρωτότοκος τῶν νεκρῶν
Re 1:17 αὐτοῦ ὡς νεκρός· καὶ
2. spiritually dead† — characterized by lack of spiritual life or vigor; being completely indifferent toward the things of God. Related Topic: Perish.
Eph 2:1 ὑμᾶς ὄντας νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν, ἐν
Eph 2:5 καὶ ὄντας ἡμᾶς νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν
Col 2:13 ὑμᾶς νεκροὺς ὄντας ἐν τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ τῇ ἀκροβυστίᾳ τῆς
3. dead ⇔ useless† — having no beneficial use or incapable of functioning usefully; conceived of as being without life. Related Topics: Futility; Vanity; Emptiness.
Heb 6:1 μετανοίας ἀπὸ νεκρῶν ἔργων,
Heb 9:14 ἡμῶν ἀπὸ νεκρῶν ἔργων
Jas 2:17 οὕτως καὶ ἡ πίστις, ἐὰν μὴ ἔχῃ ἔργα, νεκρά ἐστιν
Jas 2:26 καὶ ἡ πίστις χωρὶς ἔργων νεκρά ἐστιν.
4. socially dead† — considered socially or relationally non-existent; conceived of as not being alive.
Lk 15:24 ὅτι οὗτος ὁ υἱός μου νεκρὸς ἦν καὶ ἀνέζησεν,
Lk 15:32 ὅτι ὁ ἀδελφός σου οὗτος νεκρὸς ἦν καὶ ἔζησεν,
5. subject to death† — denoting something that will eventually die.
Ro 8:10 τὸ μὲν σῶμα νεκρὸν διὰ ἁμαρτίαν,
6. inactive ⇔ dead† — not exerting influence or change; conceived of as not being alive.
Ro 7:8 χωρὶς γὰρ νόμου ἁμαρτία νεκρά.
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Excellent contribution to the topic, @TomL
So, being spiritually dead implies complete indifference to the things of God.
God grace is needed to enable that person to react to the call of God. That does not mean to force, but to enable.
I don’t like the term “regeneration” because it implies living a new kind of life. So new, so different, as if the person had been born again. As if he had resurrected. That implies time… days, weeks, months perhaps.
I prefer “awakening” “enabling”, or no term at all… whatever the phenomenon, it is produced by the grace of God.
So, being spiritually dead implies complete indifference to the things of God.
God grace is needed to enable that person to react to the call of God. That does not mean to force, but to enable.
I don’t like the term “regeneration” because it implies living a new kind of life. So new, so different, as if the person had been born again. As if he had resurrected. That implies time… days, weeks, months perhaps.
I prefer “awakening” “enabling”, or no term at all… whatever the phenomenon, it is produced by the grace of God.
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brightfame52
Active Member
When did I ignore scripture ?
Right here where we learn one cannot be regenerated (made alive) if he does not believe in Christ.
Those who do not believe will not see life, and life comes about by regeneration, so one must first believe before regeneration.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
Thus it becomes rather clear you do not believe scripture that contradicts your theology.
So you agree the Calvinist doctrine of regeneration, that one may believe, is unbiblical.
The word (The Gospel) is sufficient
Romans 1:16 (NASB 95) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Romans 10:17 (LEB) — 17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.
John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
2 Timothy 3:15 (LEB) — 15 and that from childhood you have known the holy writings that are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
Romans 10:6–14 (NASB 95) — 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
brightfame52
Active Member
I didnt ignore them, they all support me, you just dont understand them
You did nothing at all to support your claim.
Those who do not believe will not see life, and life comes about by regeneration, so one must first believe before regeneration.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
Thus it becomes rather clear you do not believe scripture that contradicts your theology.
And you did, in fact, ignore them.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Happy New Year, TomL
Let’s reflect on Peter.
How did Peter come to believe that Jesus was the Anointed, the Son of God?
Was it by carefully reflecting on what Peter had heard from Scriptures… perhaps from Jesus’ presching?
Was it because Peter was more intelligent than other people? Or because He had paid more attention?
No.
Jesus said Peter had received a revelation from The Father.
Peter could not boast at all.
So @brightfame52 is right, and Calvinism is correct in identifying God as the necessary source of our faith.
You accepted the Gospel NOT ONLY because you chose to accept it, but because God enabled you to make that choice.
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brightfame52
Active Member
I have, I have given you plenty of scripture.
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