The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

[Doug Brents]

You mean the idea that whatever exists, exists because God sustains that existence?
I suppose we all believe that by faith, since it is inherent to the concept of God to be the source of all existence.
Doesn't the Bible say that He only has immortality? (1 Tim 6:16)

No, the absurd idea that the absence of God means inexistence (I think you meant nonexistence).

God has said that He has made a place where He is not (Hell), and He is going to send everyone who does not obey Him (including Satan, and even death itself) there for eternity (2 Thes 1:7-9, Matt 25:41, Rev 20:10, 21:8).

Who else, in your opinion, provides existence to anything or anyone?

2 Thes 1:7-9 says that the evils ones will spend eternity "away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power". That does not say that He won't still be in control there, or that He won't be "sustaining" the environment or the souls there. It just means that His presence, glory, etc. won't be there.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No, the absurd idea that the absence of God means inexistence (I think you meant nonexistence).

God has said that He has made a place where He is not (Hell), and He is going to send everyone who does not obey Him (including Satan, and even death itself) there for eternity (2 Thes 1:7-9, Matt 25:41, Rev 20:10, 21:8).

2 Thes 1:7-9 says that the evils ones will spend eternity "away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power". That does not say that He won't still be in control there, or that He won't be "sustaining" the environment or the souls there. It just means that His presence, glory, etc. won't be there.

OK, thanks for the clarification, Doug.
We can then agree that, whatever exists, exists because God sustains that existence. Otherwise it would be non-existent. Do you agree?

*********

Separateness happens in the sinner, nor in God.
God remains always close, sustaining the fabric of everything that exists, especially us.
Going back to the analogies, it is the sheep which is lost. The shepherd has not lost sight of it. It is Jonah who is far from any possibility of escape. But God is close.

When Paul talked to the Athenians, there were for sure evil and good people among the audience. There was Paul, who had crucified the old man with Christ and born to a new life. Yet, Paul didn't place himself in a different situation but considered himself as part of that collective when he said: "He is not far from each one of us"

So, in conclusion, separateness from God is a huge problem for men, but not a problem for God.

 

[Doug Brents]

OK, thanks for the clarification, Doug.
We can then agree that, whatever exists, exists because God sustains that existence. Otherwise it would be non-existent. Do you agree?

*********

Separateness happens in the sinner, nor in God.
God remains always close, sustaining the fabric of everything that exists, especially us.
Going back to the analogies, it is the sheep which is lost. The shepherd has not lost sight of it. It is Jonah who is far from any possibility of escape. But God is close.

In this life, yes. But when this life is over, when Judgement occurs, the people who belong to the Lord will stay with Him, but the people who do not belong to the Lord will go away from Him for eternity. They will no longer be in His presence, be able to see or sense His power.

When Paul talked to the Athenians, there were for sure evil and good people among the audience.

Nope. There were only evil there (besides Paul himself), because there are none good except God and those who have been saved by (given the goodness of) His Son.

There was Paul, who had crucified the old man with Christ and born to a new life. Yet, Paul didn't place himself in a different situation but considered himself as part of that collective when he said: "He is not far from each one of us"

So, in conclusion, separateness from God is a huge problem for men, but not a problem for God.

What relevance does this have to anything? Nothing is a problem for God. He is not surprised by anything, nor is He panicked because things didn't go the way He KNEW that they would. You are right, He is not far from any of us in this life, and He calls to us to come to Him as long as we are in this life. But as the parable of the rich man and Lazarus tells us, there is no salvation for the lost after death, because there is a great gulf between the lost and the saved that is not passable. And there is only this one life we are given, and after that comes the Judgement. If you want to be saved, and spend eternity in Heaven with Jesus instead of in Hell away from Him, NOW is the time to come to Him, because we are not promised tomorrow; we are not even promised the time it will take you to finish reading this sentence.

 

[TedT]

I don't think it is. If He only created those who would love Him back, then we would all appear to be robots, completely under His control and without a will of our own.

Those whom HE knew would not go to hell could still be created with a free will without doing any damage to anyone or anyone having a necessity that their free will choice of Him as their saviour was forced upon them..

The eternal death and suffering of the eternally damned is NOT NECESSARY for the faith of those who are saved BY THE GIFT OF GOD, THEIR SAVING FAITH! So why create them if HE knew all this ahead of time?

Are the pagans and atheists correct that HE is the cause of all suffering and evil like the gnostics believe. No way... we are the sole cause of our own suffering. Your answer solves nothing at all that I can see.

 

[Doug Brents]

Those whom HE knew would not go to hell could still be created with a free will without doing any damage to anyone or anyone having a necessity that their free will choice of Him as their saviour was forced upon them..

So you think it is unfair that God create souls that He knows will be condemned? As He Himself says (and I paraphrase), does the clay have a right to say to the potter, "Why did you make me a toilet? From the same lump of clay you made that beautiful bowl for holding the sacrifice in the Temple, but you made me a toilet!" The Potter has the right to do with His clay whatever He wants to do, and we, the clay, could have NO say in it.

But He was gracious enough to give us a say. He gave us free will, and the right to choose or not choose Him.

The eternal death and suffering of the eternally damned is NOT NECESSARY for the faith of those who are saved BY THE GIFT OF GOD, THEIR SAVING FAITH! So why create them if HE knew all this ahead of time?

Why not create them? Does it make Him a bad God in your opinion?

Are the pagans and atheists correct that HE is the cause of all suffering and evil like the gnostics believe. No way... Your answer solves nothing at all that I can see.

Do you know how silver is purified?

For those of you who don't know, I will tell you:
A silversmith puts silver it in a cup and heats it very, very hot, adding solvents and catalysts that bond to the impurities. He then skims the impurities off. He repeats this process over and over, and he knows that he is finished when he can see his reflection in the surface of the molten silver.

Do you know why the trees in the biodome project collapsed? They were never stressed and tested by the wind. Because they never had to resist the wind and other environmental pressures, they grew quickly but collapsed under their own weight.

God allows suffering and evil because it is the fire, wind, stresses, and pressures in which we are purified and made strong. Did God create evil? NO! But He does allow it to exist. But when this world has fulfilled its purpose, all evil will be cleaned out, cast into a dark corner, and closed off so that it cannot ever impact us again.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus used the figure of Satan in many ways, leveraging on what was known or believed among his audience at that time.
(There are good readings/talks about Satan in ancient Judaism that may interest you).

For example, Jesus called Peter Satan.
Jesus called Judas devil.
Jesus said to have seen Satan falling from the sky like a ray.
Jesus said that, after leaving a man, the demons wandered in desert places.
Jesus accepted demons' petition to possess the bodies of pigs, and we all know what happened next. The whole episode of the pigs being possessed and throwing themselves off the cliff is a powerful spiritual metaphor.

Satan is he who opposes God, who interferes, who "gets in the way" (that's the ethimological sense in Hebrew).
He is also presented as deceiver, murderer, and accuser of our brothers.
So, from my perspective as a baha'i, every time we interfere with God's plan, every time we "get in the way" instead of submitting to his will, everytime we accuse, deceive or hurt our brothers we are Satan. If we live in opposition to God's plan for us, we are enslaved by Satan.

.

Pancho,,,,I'm not spending my time here trying to convince you that satan is a real being.

I do thank you for telling me about good stories, readings and talks on satan from ancient Judaism.
I'm sure they're all very interesting.

BUT
Like I ALREADY told you, satanic/demonic possession is real even if YOU don't believe it...
and, as far as I'm concerned, that's enough for me to know without reading about ancient stories in Judaism.

I gather from your last few posts to me, and especially the one above to which I'm replying,,,
that we really cannot BE SURE of WHAT Jesus spoke...if it was metaphorical, literal, analogical, etc.

We Christians are very secure in what Jesus taught.

I think you should read:

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot * understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree.
By the way, and going back to the question of @GodsGrace, this is another example of figurative language.

Strictly speaking, literally speaking, no one is children of God. We are creatures of God.
God revealed Himself as Father for specific purposes, but for most part of the Bible YHWH was not commonly referred to as Father.
The important thing is that God loves us as a Father… or should I say as a Mother ?
(That “Father” was chosen over “Mother” to convey the concept of love and authority had to do with the patriarchal culture of Israel, and not to gender. However, if we recited the Lords Prayer saying “Our Mother in Heaven”, we might feel distracted for the weirdness of such utterance, even when it would be as metaphorical as using the term “Father”)

Was Jesus the ultimate revelation of God or not?
Did Jesus teach us to say
OUR FATHER
WHO ART IN HEAVEN.....

Was Jesus wrong?

You seem to have a problem ACCEPTING what Jesus taught.
You speak as an atheist would speak.

God was not known as FATHER in the OT....
JESUS introduced God as our FATHER.

You're thinking in a rather simple way, Pancho....
You mentioned that God is not our biological father to @Doug Brents .
You do realize you're speaking of the creator of the universe, right?
God MADE EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS,,,,including you and me...

or, as do atheists, do you believe everything happens on its own?
We are children of God because He created us...
It can be said that parents CREATE their child....although this would not be correct.
GOD creates the child.
GOD creates everything.

We are all children of God....
but we are not all Sons of God...

It's a good idea to follow scripture and not make up our own theology.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Was Jesus the ultimate revelation of God or not?
Did Jesus teach us to say
OUR FATHER
WHO ART IN HEAVEN.....

Was Jesus wrong?

You seem to have a problem ACCEPTING what Jesus taught.
You speak as an atheist would speak.

God was not known as FATHER in the OT....
JESUS introduced God as our FATHER.

You're thinking in a rather simple way, Pancho....
You mentioned that God is not our biological father to @Doug Brents .
You do realize you're speaking of the creator of the universe, right?
God MADE EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS,,,,including you and me...

or, as do atheists, do you believe everything happens on its own?
We are children of God because He created us...
It can be said that parents CREATE their child....although this would not be correct.
GOD creates the child.
GOD creates everything.

We are all children of God....
but we are not all Sons of God...

It's a good idea to follow scripture and not make up our own theology.

I don’t think you have understood me, Godgrace.
Of course God is our Creator. And of course He is our Father, for all spiritual purposes.
I constantly refer to Him as a Father. I pray to Him calling Him Father.
The only thing I said about this topic is that these terms are metaphors or figurative language.

Is it so difficult to tell literal from figurative language?
Does God dwell in Heaven, for example? We understand that heaven is figurative language that conveys a Deep spiritual meaning.
Because Heaven is so close to us, and so far at the same time. There are many meanings we can extract from “heaven”.
But literally, God does not dwell in heaven, more than he dwells in the ocean or in earth or in our hearts.

That’s what I was talking about.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Pancho,,,,I'm not spending my time here trying to convince you that satan is a real being.

I do thank you for telling me about good stories, readings and talks on satan from ancient Judaism.
I'm sure they're all very interesting.

BUT
Like I ALREADY told you, satanic/demonic possession is real even if YOU don't believe it...
and, as far as I'm concerned, that's enough for me to know without reading about ancient stories in Judaism.

I gather from your last few posts to me, and especially the one above to which I'm replying,,,
that we really cannot BE SURE of WHAT Jesus spoke...if it was metaphorical, literal, analogical, etc.

We Christians are very secure in what Jesus taught.

I think you should read:

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot * understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

I Corinthians 2:14 gets right to my point, Godgrace.
These things have to be understood spiritually… not literally.
There re many things that, if understood literally, make no sense and can even be dangerous in some cases.
We have dig into the spiritual truths behind the words, instead of sticking to the words, and we apply those truths in our life, we are understanding them spiritually.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

In this life, yes. But when this life is over… He is not far from any of us in this life… And there is only this one life we are given, and after that comes the Judgement. If you want to be saved, and spend eternity in Heaven with Jesus instead of in Hell away from Him, NOW is the time to come to Him, because we are not promised tomorrow; we are not even promised the time it will take you to finish reading this sentence.

I fully agree with you that the time to be saved is NOW, TODAY, and that there are consequences of every oppportunity we waste.
I agree as well that after death comes judgement, and then the verdict or sentence. We only differ in the purpose of that verdict or sentence.
To me, the purpose is to offer people through suffering something to learn, to understand.

 

[Doug Brents]

I fully agree with you that the time to be saved is NOW, TODAY, and that there are consequences of every oppportunity we waste.
I agree as well that after death comes judgement, and then the verdict or sentence. We only differ in the purpose of that verdict or sentence.
To me, the purpose is to offer people through suffering something to learn, to understand.

What part of "eternal", "everlasting", "forever and ever" indicates any possibility of a change in circumstance after Judgement? There will certainly be something learned by the people in Hell, but it will be far too late to do anything about it. As God says, EVERY knee will bow to Jesus and EVERY tongue will confess that He is Lord, but the evil ones will still spend eternity in Hell with no possibility of parole, or reprieve, or change, ever.

I understand your wanting to give people who go to Hell a hope of redemption from that suffering. But God does not give that hope. He says that we must be saved NOW, so NOW is when you yourself should be saved, and then turn your effort to saving other souls NOW, so that they never know the terror of being without God.

 

[TedT]

Why not create them? Does it make Him a bad God in your opinion?

Because love does no harm, Rom 13:10 and it is very harmful to those who are created just to suffer eternally in hell and GOD is love...you seem to know some theology but you do not know GOD at all if you think HE would do this.

I base my understanding of HIS omniscience on
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

The idea that HIS omniscience is from eternity to eternity and covers all that can be known is a pagan Greek philosophical idea that crept into the Church and supported the blasphemy that GOD knew who would go to perdition before HE created them but created them anyway.

Much better is the Biblical definition:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. This limits HIS omniscience to 'all HIS works' and it started at 'the beginning of the world.' All HIS works describe HIS creative decrees. The beginning of the world is when the elect were chosen and the rest were reprobated due to their fee will choice about HIM....

If HE did not decree something into creation, HE did not know it...and I contend HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for ourselves. How can a will that is decreed by GOD to chose only one way be called free?

It is NOT a mystery how we can have a free will while we are also under the compulsion of a decree for GOD , it is a foolishness, a perfect example of doublethink logic designed to uphold a false theology.

ImCo, GOD only decreed our lives after HE learned what relationship we wanted with HIM from us our response to HIS proclamation of HIS deity and the gospel of salvation from sin only being found in the Son, Col 1:23. AFTER we chose our FATES by our free will, HE chose our LIVES to fulfill our self chosen fates.

Peace, Ted

 

[Doug Brents]

Because love does no harm, Rom 13:10 and it is very harmful to those who are created just to suffer eternally in hell and GOD is love...you seem to know some theology but you do not know GOD at all if you think HE would do this.

God is not doing harm. He is offering peace, joy, comfort, etc., but He is not forcing it upon anyone. Those who go to Hell choose Hell, and they are without excuse (Rom 1:20).

I base my understanding of HIS omniscience on
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

The idea that HIS omniscience is from eternity to eternity and covers all that can be known is a pagan Greek philosophical idea that crept into the Church and supported the blasphemy that GOD knew who would go to perdition before HE created them but created them anyway.

Rom 8:28-30 is clear that God knew who would accept Him before He created the world, before He even laid the foundation of it. This is not blasphemy, it is Scripture.

Much better is the Biblical definition:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. This limits HIS omniscience to 'all HIS works' and it started at 'the beginning of the world.' All HIS works describe HIS creative decrees. The beginning of the world is when the elect were chosen and the rest were reprobated due to their fee will choice about HIM....

You limit God? He doesn't limit Himself.
1 John 3:20 - He knows everything (what is the limit of EVERYTHING?).
Eph 1:4-5 - Before He laid the foundation of the world, He chose us, and in Love predestined us for salvation.

If HE did not decree something into creation, HE did not know it...and I contend HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for ourselves. How can a will that is decreed by GOD to chose only one way be called free?

He did not decree the choice we would make, but He did decree that we would have a choice, and He knew the choice each person would make before He even created the World.

ImCo, GOD only decreed our lives after HE learned what relationship we wanted with HIM from us our response to HIS proclamation of HIS deity and the gospel of salvation from sin only being found in the Son, Col 1:23. AFTER we chose our FATES by our free will, HE chose our LIVES to fulfill our self chosen fates.

By this comment, you deny Scripture's statement that He chose us before Creation, because He knew us before Creation.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

What part of "eternal", "everlasting", "forever and ever" indicates any possibility of a change in circumstance after Judgement? There will certainly be something learned by the people in Hell, but it will be far too late to do anything about it. As God says, EVERY knee will bow to Jesus and EVERY tongue will confess that He is Lord, but the evil ones will still spend eternity in Hell with no possibility of parole, or reprieve, or change, ever.

I understand your wanting to give people who go to Hell a hope of redemption from that suffering. But God does not give that hope. He says that we must be saved NOW, so NOW is when you yourself should be saved, and then turn your effort to saving other souls NOW, so that they never know the terror of being without God.

Hi Doug

Thanks for keeping the conversation going. I had a lot of work yesterday and could not join the Forum, so I appreciate your patience.
I would like to make two comments on your post

1. You are asking me why I don't accept as literal terms as "eternal", "everlasting" or "forever and ever" when applied to hell. The answer is that I don't take all words from the Bible literally. You also don't take them all literally, and nobody should take them all literally. Particularly we shouldn't take words literally when they contradict reason and the most basic concepts of God, good, and evil.

2. You say you understand that I want to give those who go to hell a hope of redemption from their suffering. I thank you for that understanding. I personally believe that you and everyone in this Forum also want to give the wicked a hope of redemption. What is intriguing, then, is why you think God does not want to give them that hope, if God's love, justice and wisdom is infinitely greater than your love, justice and wisdom. So either God does not want it, or He wants but He can't... what takes us to the same intriguing situation. Why an All-Powerful God can't achieve what He wants, without violating free will.

 

[Studyman]

Hi Doug

Thanks for keeping the conversation going. I had a lot of work yesterday and could not join the Forum, so I appreciate your patience.
I would like to make two comments on your post

1. You are asking me why I don't accept as literal terms as "eternal", "everlasting" or "forever and ever" when applied to hell. The answer is that I don't take all words from the Bible literally. You also don't take them all literally, and nobody should take them all literally. Particularly we shouldn't take words literally when they contradict reason and the most basic concepts of God, good, and evil.

2. You say you understand that I want to give those who go to hell a hope of redemption from their suffering. I thank you for that understanding. I personally believe that you and everyone in this Forum also want to give the wicked a hope of redemption. What is intriguing, then, is why you think God does not want to give them that hope, if God's love, justice and wisdom is infinitely greater than your love, justice and wisdom. So either God does not want it, or He wants but He can't... what takes us to the same intriguing situation. Why an All-Powerful God can't achieve what He wants, without violating free will.

I agree that God doesn't grant mortal humans immortality, only to torture them forever and ever in a fire made for immortals. And the Bible certainly doesn't teach such a thing. But the Bible does teach that men die, and it speaks to an "Everlasting death", that is, a death that there is no resurrection from, no more "life", a death in which there is no return. While I can see the seduction of a religion that promotes to humans that "thou shall not die", or the philosophy that humans are all born with "immortal souls", such a teaching doesn't align with the Bible at all, in my understanding.

For me, it seems very relevant that the very first recorded deception shown in the Bible, was to trick Eve into believing that she will never die, even though God said she would, and to reason out in her mind, to justify disobedience and unbelief towards God. And that is the Key, YES? To believe God?

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Will HE not keep His Promisse's?

 

[TedT]

He did not decree the choice we would make, but He did decree that we would have a choice, and He knew the choice each person would make before He even created the World.

Then HE did create them to end in hell...lovely thought...for no stated or known reason and against all that HE has revealed to us of HIS character as LOVE and LIGHT...

The Spirit who convicted me, who brought me to repentance in Christ and to faith in Him as my only Saviour, has intimated to me that He would never do this as HE wants no one to die in hell:

GOD does not take pleasure in the deaths of anyone: Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked...yet GOD does only that which gives HIM pleasure...so why would HE create people knowing they would end in hell when He has no desire for them to do so and not creating them fulfills HIS desire?

Also, HE wants all people to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4...who WANTS all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. so whether HE will get this want fulfilled or not, HE obviously did NOT create anyone without the possibility for salvation, ie, foreknown, that is, foreordained (same word), to end hell at creation!

 

[TedT]

By this comment, you deny Scripture's statement that He chose us before Creation, because He knew us before Creation.

No sir, I find these verses fulfilled in creation referring first to the creation of all the spirits in HIS image and then to the creation of the physical universe which all the Sons of GOD saw and sang HIS praises, (proving their creation), Job 38:7 but never to our being conceived as men in the world which is called a sowning, a moving from a place of storage to a place of growth, Matt 13:36-39...and since the devil sows too, to sow cannot mean to create.

We were there with HIM and heard HIS first proclamation of the gospel, Col 1:23, and HE responded with love and their election to those who put their faith, their unproven hope, in HIM and HE responded with hate and condemnation for those who put their faith, their unproven hope, in HIS being a liar and therefore a false god, consigning themselves to hell forever. Not by HIS foreknowledge / foreordination but by their own free will choice which HE must not have known they would choose or HE would not have created those individuals because HIS hope was to keep hell empty.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I agree that God doesn't grant mortal humans immortality, only to torture them forever and ever in a fire made for immortals. And the Bible certainly doesn't teach such a thing. But the Bible does teach that men die, and it speaks to an "Everlasting death", that is, a death that there is no resurrection from, no more "life", a death in which there is no return. While I can see the seduction of a religion that promotes to humans that "thou shall not die", or the philosophy that humans are all born with "immortal souls", such a teaching doesn't align with the Bible at all, in my understanding.

I deeply respect those who believe in the annihilation of the wicked ones as opposed to their eternal torment. It makes far more sense, and there is also some biblical and philosophical support for it.
Certainly, from my perspective, it does not solve all logical issues related to God's justice and mercy, but I see it like a big step in the right direction.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don’t think you have understood me, Godgrace.
Of course God is our Creator. And of course He is our Father, for all spiritual purposes.
I constantly refer to Him as a Father. I pray to Him calling Him Father.
The only thing I said about this topic is that these terms are metaphors or figurative language.

Is it so difficult to tell literal from figurative language?
Does God dwell in Heaven, for example? We understand that heaven is figurative language that conveys a Deep spiritual meaning.
Because Heaven is so close to us, and so far at the same time. There are many meanings we can extract from “heaven”.
But literally, God does not dwell in heaven, more than he dwells in the ocean or in earth or in our hearts.

That’s what I was talking about.

It's what I'm talking about too.
God is our FATHER.
If a woman has a child with a man....
and then divorces him after a year....
and gets married to another man....(the marriage was annulled, of course)
and the second husband RAISES the child...
which man is the father?
I'd say the second.

If God created us,,,He is our Father.
No metaphor.

God is in heaven.
No metaphor.
He is ALSO everywhere else.
Heaven is a spiritual realm where God resides.
No metaphor.

We could not agree on this...OK
But you can't take real, literal ideas from scripture and call them metaphors,
otherwise, yes, it becomes difficult to distinguish the difference.

The devil, agian,,,is NOT a metaphor.
Christians believe he is a real being/entity.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Heaven is a spiritual realm where God resides.
No metaphor.

I share 100% your understanding of "heaven".
Both you and me believe that "heaven" means "spiritual realm where God resides".
But that is not the literal meaning of heaven. If it we understood it literally, then we would conclude that God dwells in the sky (either in the earth atmosphere or in the interstellar space, but not in the ocean or earth crust).

The ancient inspired authors found important to use "heaven" (and not "top of the mountain", for example) because "heaven" is associated with several concepts that "top of the mountain" does not convey so well. Even so, in Exodus, God speaks to Moses in a mountain, as a mountain is the part of earth that is closer to heaven, and therefore, metaphorically represents a connection between the realm of God and the realm of human beings.

I hope this helps to clarify what I meant by "metaphorical".
I never meant that truths revealed through metaphorical language are less real than those revealed in plain language. Both are 100% real... it is the method to convey the truths that is different, and requires from us a different exegetical approach.