The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

[Pancho Frijoles]

These are not mysteries.
Why would an atonement theory be a mystery?
Why would the CC or any denomination, present an atonement theory as a mystery?

IF it were a mystery,,,it would not be possible to explain it,
and yet there are books written on atonement theories.

The very fact that there are so many theories and debates strongly suggest that there are aspects we don't understand.
Good news is that we don't need to understand them to enjoy God's love.

Same with other concepts, like the nature of God, or the nature of the relationship of Christ and God, or the Holy Spirit, or creation, or the nature of our souls. We think we know some aspects of it, but most is unreachable to our minds.
Recognizing that they are in part mysteries should help us to approach any debate with humbleness.

After my death, I will for sure realize that I was wrong about so many things.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Atonement theories are not analogies:
They are taken from scripture and explain WHY Jesus died on the cross.

Atonement theories use analogies and metaphors or figurative language to be taught and understood better.
This is the way often God reveals Himself in the Bible.

 

[Doug Brents]

Well, leaving the metaphor "sheep" or "shepherd" aside, I believe that God is the only true and legitimate owner of every soul and every creature.
The proof is that no unsaved soul can escape God's jurisdiction and say "Since I don't belong to you, you don't have any right to make me accountable for anything." or "Why did I get terminal cancer? God has no right over my body. It belongs to someone else".

If I understand you correctly, some people have subjected themselves to the control of Satan. I agree. (Later on I will pick your question on why I am mentioning Satan, if I don't believe there is one).

Now, why do I mention Satan? Because the devil as an archetype of evil is very useful in theological dialogue, and used in the Scriptures. But that would require another thread.

Satan is a very real being.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are correct, Satan does not care about us nor does he love us. But he does have control of us, and if we die in his control then we are stuck with him for eternity. Satan will lose, and lose bigger than he ever hoped to gain, and all those who are not in Christ will spend eternity with him in Hell.

Yes, we are the offspring of God. But there are two different ways Scripture presents this. In the way you are looking at it, yes, everyone is His child, and everyone is known by God for He knows everything.
But, Scripture also presents God as only KNOWING those who are in Christ, those who have been adopted into His family. In this was of looking at what God knows, He does not know those who are not His. We see this in two places: Matt 7:23 and Gal 4:9.

What do you think of this?
We are all children of God in that HE created everything, including every single human being.

But we are not all sons of God in that we would have to freely choose to belong to the family of God...
OR be a bride of Christ....be a member of the Body of Christ.

I'm not sure there's scripture for this....
Just a thought.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, leaving the metaphor "sheep" or "shepherd" aside, I believe that God is the only true and legitimate owner of every soul and every creature.
The proof is that no unsaved soul can escape God's jurisdiction and say "Since I don't belong to you, you don't have any right to make me accountable for anything." or "Why did I get terminal cancer? God has no right over my body. It belongs to someone else".

If I understand you correctly, some people have subjected themselves to the control of Satan. I agree. (Later on I will pick your question on why I am mentioning Satan, if I don't believe there is one).

No Pancho.
You're not repeating what I stated.
I did NOT state that SOME PEOPLE SUBJECATE THEMSELVES TO THE CONTROL OF SATAN....
I said that we all serve the master to whom we present ourselves....OK

but let's not forget the scripture I posted:
Those that DO NOT OFFER THEMSELVES TO GOD are ALREADY LOST...
John 3:18
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

UNLESS we present ourselves to God....
we are, by default, presenting ourselves to satan.

Now, why do I mention Satan? Because the devil as an archetype of evil is very useful in theological dialogue, and used in the Scriptures. But that would require another thread.

Herein is a problem:
We Christians believe satan is a real being.
I suppose you don't believe in possession...
but it's real and those that come into contact with it know
that satan is a real being.

Jesus called satan YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL....
that doesn't sound like an archetype of evil...
It sounds like a REAL being.

John 8:44
44;You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Sounds like a real "person" to me.
We either believe Jesus or we don't.

 

[GodsGrace]

The very fact that there are so many theories and debates strongly suggest that there are aspects we don't understand.
Good news is that we don't need to understand them to enjoy God's love.

I'd say that each atonement theory focuses on a different aspect of it.
Some will like one more than another.
The parties could debate WHY they like one over another.
But it should NOT be a debate over one being correct and one being wrong.

Same with other concepts, like the nature of God, or the nature of the relationship of Christ and God, or the Holy Spirit, or creation, or the nature of our souls. We think we know some aspects of it, but most is unreachable to our minds.
Recognizing that they are in part mysteries should help us to approach any debate with humbleness.

After my death, I will for sure realize that I was wrong about so many things.

Of course the above is correct.
We cannot fully know God...only what He either revealed to us
or what we can grasp because we're familiar with the idea.

 

[GodsGrace]

Atonement theories use analogies and metaphors or figurative language to be taught and understood better.
This is the way often God reveals Himself in the Bible.

I'd love to hear some of that figurative language.
Satan stole us from God through Adam.
Is that figurative or real?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I'd love to hear some of that figurative language.
Satan stole us from God through Adam.
Is that figurative or real?

From my perspective, you’re using figurative language. Even that short sentence contains 3 metaphors
1) Satan, 2) theft, and 3) Adam as mean for such theft.

Jesus used many metaphors and analogies. The apostles added even more. So soteriology is taught and learnt through these metaphors and analogies. This is beautiful as didactic tool… language that facilitates the embbending of the principles or ideas it convys… but It becomes absurd and dangerous when people take it as literal language and demand other people to accept it as literal.