The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

[Pancho Frijoles]

We take it like any thing/

Babylon was told to be a head of God. Now it was not a literal head of gold. but the head of God represented a literal kingdom. and that kingdom fulfilled what was said about it, including her demise by hands of media and persians.

Hi, Eternall-Grateful and @civic

I agree.
Hell is real, just as Babylon was real.
However, hell is not a landfill outside Jerusalem where souls burn, just as Babylon was not a head of gold of the statue. Do we agree?
Both "Gehenna" and "golden head of the statue" are figurative language that means something else, which is very real.

It is important to state again that universalists believe hell is a reality.
But not the reality of lake of fire and brimstone, or the reality or a landfill with burning rubbish outside Jerusalem.
Hell is the reality of a state or condition of the soul, who feels separated from God, isolated, in pain, and without escape or alleviation from any of the means that soul has known.

The metaphor Jesus used (the open dump outside Jerusalem where people burned rubbish) was easy to be understood by the people of his time, to emphasize that a life without spiritual fruit is a wasted life... it is like rubbish. Rubbish serves no practical purpose, so people take it outside the city to be burned. This is in perfect line with other figures Jesus used about a tree who does not bear fruits. It is chopped off and thrown to the fire.

 

[civic]

Hi, Eternall-Grateful and @civic

I agree.
Hell is real, just as Babylon was real.
However, hell is not a landfill outside Jerusalem where souls burn, just as Babylon was not the head of gold of the statue. Do we agree?

It is important to state again that universalists believe hell is a reality.
But not the reality of lake of fire and brimstone, or the reality or a landfill with burning rubbish outside Jerusalem.
Hell is the reality of a state or condition of the soul, who feels separated from God, isolated, in pain, and without escape or alleviation from any of the means that soul has known.

Revelation 20:14-15- hell was thrown into the lake of fire which is eternal as per Revelation 21 and Revelation 22. It never ends.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Doug Brents]

No, absolutely no.
God will save a soul who repents, just as happens in this life.
The only difference between your understanding and my understanding is the duration of God's action.
You believe that once the heart ceases pumping blood to the brain, God ceases being interested in that person. I believe that God's interest for that person is eternal. Even if that person is unfaithful, God is still faithful, because He cannot betray his own nature. (2 Timothy 2:13)

He does not cease to be interested in that person, but that person has chosen, for all time, their own eternal destiny. After death, that person's eternal home cannot be changed. God said that we have one life, and then the Judgement, and that Judgement is final. There will be no changing that Judgement. In this life, we can have faith, but once we have seen God as He is, EVERY tongue will confess that He is Lord, and EVERY knee will bow to Him. That kneeling and confessing, in His presence, will not change the eternal destiny of their soul.

Yes, I agree. In the same sense, I believe that "everlasting" is figurative of the inescapable nature of the suffering by human means.

Now you add "by human means". But that is not part of Scripture. The means will be through the absence of God, the suffering will be because God is not there.

That's exactly the tragedy of hell in the afterlife.
Here, on earth, people resort to money, popularity, sex, drugs, videogames to mitigate or evade from the reality of their suffering. In the afterlife, without these "aspirins" that pertain to the material world, what can mitigate their suffering? Nothing.
That's why they perceive it as a "day and night" suffering.

And that suffering will be ETERNAL. There will be no end, no reprieve, no parole, no "revisit this case in a thousand years". Eternal means exactly that: eternal, without end, etc.

"Eternal" has the same meaning for both eternal life and eternal torment.
It not about chronological duration (souls are immortal anyway, and bodies are mortal anyway).
It is about the fact that such life or such torment cannot end by human means.

Not just "by human means"; it cannot end at all.

When we are in Christ, no threat or temptation created by humans can take us away from the love of Christ.

The love of Christ is not synonymous with salvation. We are loved by Christ whether we are in Him or not, for He loved us while we were yet sinners (Rom 5:8). If we are in Christ, no threat or temptation created by Satan can force us away from salvation in Christ.

When we are not in Christ, no pleasure or alleviation created by humans can take us away from our suffering.

There is NOTHING that can bring us salvation, or an end of our suffering, other than the blood of Jesus Christ. Nothing formed by man, Satan, angels, beasts, gods, or anything else other than the blood of Jesus can take us away from our suffering. And after we die in this life, the blood of Jesus cannot be reached by us. We can no longer be washed in the blood of Jesus after this life is over.

 

[civic]

He does not cease to be interested in that person, but that person has chosen, for all time, their own eternal destiny. After death, that person's eternal home cannot be changed. God said that we have one life, and then the Judgement, and that Judgement is final. There will be no changing that Judgement. In this life, we can have faith, but once we have seen God as He is, EVERY tongue will confess that He is Lord, and EVERY knee will bow to Him. That kneeling and confessing, in His presence, will not change the eternal destiny of their soul.

Now you add "by human means". But that is not part of Scripture. The means will be through the absence of God, the suffering will be because God is not there.

And that suffering will be ETERNAL. There will be no end, no reprieve, no parole, no "revisit this case in a thousand years". Eternal means exactly that: eternal, without end, etc.

Not just "by human means"; it cannot end at all.

The love of Christ is not synonymous with salvation. We are loved by Christ whether we are in Him or not, for He loved us while we were yet sinners (Rom 5:8). If we are in Christ, no threat or temptation created by Satan can force us away from salvation in Christ.

There is NOTHING that can bring us salvation, or an end of our suffering, other than the blood of Jesus Christ. Nothing formed by man, Satan, angels, beasts, gods, or anything else other than the blood of Jesus can take us away from our suffering. And after we die in this life, the blood of Jesus cannot be reached by us. We can no longer be washed in the blood of Jesus after this life is over.

Nothing but the Blood of Jesus ! Amen

1 What can wash away my sin?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Refrain:
O precious is the flow
that makes me white as snow;
no other fount I know;
nothing but the blood of Jesus.

2 For my pardon this I see:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
For my cleansing this my plea:
nothing but the blood of Jesus. [Refrain]

3 Nothing can for sin atone:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Naught of good that I have done:
nothing but the blood of Jesus. [Refrain]

4 This is all my hope and peace:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
This is all my righteousness:
nothing but the blood of Jesus. [Refrain]

Some cannot sing this and deny Him.

The same with on Christ the solid Rock I stand

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus' blood and righteousness
I dare not trust the sweetest frame
But wholly lean on Jesus' name
On Christ the solid rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground is sinking sand

When darkness
When darkness veils His lovely face
I'll rest on His unchanging grace
In every high and stormy day
My anchor holds within the veil
On Christ the solid rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground is sinking sand

And His oath
His oath, His covenant, His blood
Support me in the whelming flood
When all around my soul gives way
He then is all my hope and stay
On Christ the solid rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground is sinking sand

Let's just revisit and visualise it
Just think about what that is gonna look like
When we hear that trunpet sound
When He shall come
When He shall come with trumpet sound

Oh, may I then in Him be found
Dressed in His righteousness alone
Faultless to stand before the throne
On Christ the solid rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground is sinking sand

Jesus cross and blood atonement is a stumbling block for many.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Revelation 20:14-15- hell was thrown into the lake of fire which is eternal as per Revelation 21 and Revelation 22. It never ends.

hope this helps !!!

Revelation 20:14-15 reinforces the figurative tone of the language used to describe the condition of the lost souls.

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. "
How can death be thrown into a lake of fire, if it is a concept? What does it mean?
How can Hades be thrown into a lake of fire, if Hades is a concept (and a Pagan one) ? What does it mean?

Hades is the Greek concept of an underworld (ruled by god Hades) where dead people, good or bad, went after death (similar to the Hebrew Sheol). Hades was not particularly evil. He reigned over the underworld just because of luck: Zeus, Poseidon and Hades had drawn lots to see who would reign over heavens, oceans, and the underworld. Nothing related to the Christian concept of Satan.

In Hades, there were places or subkingdoms for particularly wicked people (Tartarus), for extraordinarily righteous people (Elysium), and for "normal people" like you and me (the Asphodel Meadows). The underworld featured five rivers: Styx (river of oaths), Acheron (river of sorrow), Cocytus (river of lamentation), Phlegethon (river of fire), and Lethe (river of forgetfulness), which souls had to cross in their journey after death. Does the Bible confirms the concept of Hades?

Below a Greek statue representing Hades, the god of the underworld.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Not just "by human means"; it cannot end at all.

I strongly disagree.
The starting point of salvation is to realize that we cannot save ourselves by human means... but God can save us.
Hell is a state in which we are trying unsuccessfully to save ourselves.
Paradise is a state in which we have been saved by the power of God.

The young rich was in hell, trapped by his adherence to material possessions. He could not escape even if he tried to keep the Ten Comandments.
When the apostles noticed how extremely difficult was to enter the Kingdom of God, they asked with concern: "Then, who will be saved"?
And Jesus answered: "What is impossible for men, is possible for God".

What makes our points of views different is that you believe that God stops trying at the moment the person gets a flat line on the monitor.
I believe God keeps trying after that moment, because His mercy and love are not subject to biology.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Hi, Eternall-Grateful and @civic

I agree.
Hell is real, just as Babylon was real.
However, hell is not a landfill outside Jerusalem where souls burn, just as Babylon was not a head of gold of the statue. Do we agree?
Both "Gehenna" and "golden head of the statue" are figurative language that means something else, which is very real.

It is important to state again that universalists believe hell is a reality.
But not the reality of lake of fire and brimstone, or the reality or a landfill with burning rubbish outside Jerusalem.
Hell is the reality of a state or condition of the soul, who feels separated from God, isolated, in pain, and without escape or alleviation from any of the means that soul has known.

The metaphor Jesus used (the open dump outside Jerusalem where people burned rubbish) was easy to be understood by the people of his time, to emphasize that a life without spiritual fruit is a wasted life... it is like rubbish. Rubbish serves no practical purpose, so people take it outside the city to be burned. This is in perfect line with other figures Jesus used about a tree who does not bear fruits. It is chopped off and thrown to the fire.

I sort of agree.

a non child of God can not bear fruit though.. They remain condemned because of unbelief (john 3)

A child of God can bear fruit. and their works will be tried by fire (a different fire) and they will not even be present at the final great white judgment. which is for the lost.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I strongly disagree.
The starting point of salvation is to realize that we cannot save ourselves by human means... but God can save us.
Hell is a state in which we are trying unsuccessfully to save ourselves.
Paradise is a state in which we have been saved by the power of God.

The young rich was in hell, trapped by his adherence to material possessions. He could not escape even if he tried to keep the Ten Comandments.
When the apostles noticed how extremely difficult was to enter the Kingdom of God, they asked with concern: "Then, who will be saved"?
And Jesus answered: "What is impossible for men, is possible for God".

What makes our points of views different is that you believe that God stops trying at the moment the person gets a flat line on the monitor.
I believe God keeps trying after that moment, because His mercy and love are not subject to biology.

yes. part of becoming poor, or bankrupt, in spirit

 

[civic]

Revelation 20:14-15 reinforces the figurative tone of the language used to describe the condition of the lost souls.

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. "
How can death be thrown into a lake of fire, if it is a concept? What does it mean?
How can Hades be thrown into a lake of fire, if Hades is a concept (and a Pagan one) ? What does it mean?

Hades is the Greek concept of an underworld (ruled by god Hades) where dead people, good or bad, went after death (similar to the Hebrew Sheol). Hades was not particularly evil. He reigned over the underworld just because of luck: Zeus, Poseidon and Hades had drawn lots to see who would reign over heavens, oceans, and the underworld. Nothing related to the Christian concept of Satan.

In Hades, there were places or subkingdoms for particularly wicked people (Tartarus), for extraordinarily righteous people (Elysium), and for "normal people" like you and me (the Asphodel Meadows). The underworld featured five rivers: Styx (river of oaths), Acheron (river of sorrow), Cocytus (river of lamentation), Phlegethon (river of fire), and Lethe (river of forgetfulness), which souls had to cross in their journey after death. Does the Bible confirms the concept of Hades?

Below a Greek statue representing Hades, the god of the underworld.

View attachment 1576

Things figuratively spoken or taught have literal meanings. Jesus teaching in parables are proof positive this is true. Paul and the other Apostles do the same. We are in a race figuratively and literally in this life. We are pilgrims and strangers figuratively and literally. It’s not an either or it’s and and both. You are creating the false dilemma fallacy.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If we are in Christ, no threat or temptation created by Satan can force us away from salvation in Christ.

I agree, and I insist: it is God's love, manifested through Jesus Christ, which produces our salvation.

So, this is how the life Christ provides is eternal:

"Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Things figuratively spoken or taught have literal meanings. Jesus teaching in parables are proof positive this is true. Paul and the other Apostles do the same. We are in a race figuratively and literally in this life. We are pilgrims and strangers figuratively and literally. It’s not an either or it’s and and both. You are creating the false dilemma fallacy.

No false dilemma at all.
Hell is real.
So, where is the false dilemma?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

a non child of God can not bear fruit though.. They remain condemned because of unbelief (john 3)

Nobody can bear good fruit, if it is not by the undeserved grace of God.
Our stance is similar, but the difference, as I say, is that universalists believe that God's love and interest does not stop at the moment of biological death.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Nobody can bear good fruit, if it is not by the undeserved grace of God.
Our stance is similar, but the difference, as I say, is that universalists believe that God's love and interest does not stop at the moment of biological death.

yes,

sadly, they are mistaken.. if they are waiting for this, they will not be happy

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

yes,

sadly, they are mistaken.. if they are waiting for this, they will not be happy

Hell is not a state a believer wants to be, regardless of the theological stance.
Paradise is a state a believer wants to be, regardless of the theological stance.

I don't think a believer is happy if such believer truly believed that his/her spouse, children, parents, friends, colleagues, co-workers, doctors, employers or employees will be tormented forever... and I don't think a believer is happy knowing that the God he loves and worships will put people in eternal torment without any purpose.

 

[TedT]

So instead of arguing surety, you argue your "possible interpretation"?

Please consider:
... that faith is an unproven hope, from Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.(ie, unproven).

Things not seen means they are unproven but someone has claimed them to be true. We believe them to be true without proof because we hope they are true. Those who demand proof that these things are true before they will believe in them have no faith.

Faith is our ability to believe on all the evidence but without actual proof that something is true and all scripture is understood by faith, not proof...faith in the interpretation we have learned from an authority we accept or the spirit who leads us.

2 Corinthians 5:7 We live by faith, not by sight, ie proof. NO SECT / PERSON HAS PROOF, just faith....even you.

Why is faith so important to GOD?
Faith has the unique characteristic of allowing us to define who we are and what we want that can't be duplicated by any other method.

Our hope and the depth of our faith / conviction in that hope separates us all in our relationship with GOD by a spectrum of self definition ranging
from those who quickly and fully hope deeply that GOD is who HE claims to be,
to those who accepted because they hoped only to miss damnation,

to those who refused to have faith in HIM at all, putting their faith and hopes in their own person, plans and desires. OUR HOPES DEFINE US PERFECTLY AND FULLY...and inform our faith.

Proof of YHWH's divinity and power would destroy our hopes into knowledge because as Romans 8:4 puts it: For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see?

The gospel of salvation is only meaningful if it includes the claims that the source of the gospel is Divine, that HE desires a marriage with us, and is teaching the truth of the legal and natural consequences of sin and that He is the only saviour from sin so that without HIM a sinner ends banished from HIS presence for eternity.

Therefore when GOD proclaimed the gospel to every creature under heaven, Colossians 1:23, it cannot have been with a display of the proof of these claims or AFTER any proof of these claim had been given or there could be no faith, no exposing of our deepest hopes that HIS claims were true or that HE was a liar....

Proof after the choice would metaphorically "freeze" everyone's choice at that stage because with that proof would come the end of faith...faith proven is knowledge, not anymore faith. After proof there would be no introspection about HIS claims, no free will decision to accept them or to reject them, no Satanic fall with the contrasting decision to choose faith unto holiness by the holy angels...free will is abrogated by proof so no true marriage, no true holiness which depends upon our free will, could come into existence.

Therefore faith, not proof, defines the self, the deepest desires of the heart, what you want if you were in charge, (or some better way of saying it), while leaving the hope based faith totally free, without coercion, and limited only by our imagination.

That is why faith based choices with no proof with options ranging from a supposed reality without god, to many gods, to ONE TRUE GOD, to we are god, have all developed.

That is why faith is so important to GOD in HIS search for loving communion with a created spirit. GOD let everyone choose by faith, ie a hope without proof, by a true free will choice, their future reality with HIM and we all self chose our own destiny by faith, proving the importance faith has in the free will process and to life.

Peace, Ted

 

[Doug Brents]

I strongly disagree.
The starting point of salvation is to realize that we cannot save ourselves by human means... but God can save us.
Hell is a state in which we are trying unsuccessfully to save ourselves.

No, Hell is a place where God will not be, and His glory will not reach, after this life is over. Hell is not in this lifetime, nor is it part of the physical world. Hell is a real place where the souls of those who are not in Christ will go after the Judgement.

Paradise is a state in which we have been saved by the power of God.

Again, Paradise is a place, not a state, where we will live in God's presence for eternity.

The young rich was in hell, trapped by his adherence to material possessions.

He was trapped by his sin, his adherence to self over God. His possessions were just a symptom of his sin.

He could not escape even if he tried to keep the Ten Comandments.
When the apostles noticed how extremely difficult was to enter the Kingdom of God, they asked with concern: "Then, who will be saved"?
And Jesus answered: "What is impossible for men, is possible for God".

What makes our points of views different is that you believe that God stops trying at the moment the person gets a flat line on the monitor.
I believe God keeps trying after that moment, because His mercy and love are not subject to biology.

Then you have read the Scripture wrong, or you are trusting in some other God that the Scripture does not describe. There is only one hope for salvation, and that is Jesus; and His salvation is only available to us in this life. Once we pass beyond this life, we will see God and Jesus as they are, and there will be no more chance to repent, to change, to accept Christ. Everyone will bow before Him then, but it will be too late then.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Hell is not a state a believer wants to be, regardless of the theological stance.
Paradise is a state a believer wants to be, regardless of the theological stance.

I don't think a believer is happy if such believer truly believed that his/her spouse, children, parents, friends, colleagues, co-workers, doctors, employers or employees will be tormented forever... and I don't think a believer is happy knowing that the God he loves and worships will put people in eternal torment without any purpose.

we won't be happy.

that's why we should do whatever we can to get them to repent.

I saw a documentary about a guy who killed his parents last night. The family (since the accused was a blood son) kept trying to accuse a non blood son (He was not the fathers son, but the mothers) of killing the father and mother. to stick up for the blood son. Even though the evidence clearly showed it would be impossible for the child the family accused to do it. and the only evidence pointed to the blood son.

after 2 mistrials the third trial finally resolved in a guilty against the blood son.

The family was not happy he was executed for capitol murder.

But the law is the law..

Same with hell. We will not be happy. But the law of God is the law. he is a perfect judge.. He came to die for your whole family. if some of your family rejects Gods salvation. They are not going to be happy the some of the family will be seperated from God for eternity. but its the law..

 

[Doug Brents]

I agree, and I insist: it is God's love, manifested through Jesus Christ, which produces our salvation.

So, this is how the life Christ provides is eternal:

"Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Obviously.

But none of this indicates a possible salvation beyond the grave. Again, God's love for us is not synonymous with salvation. He will love us beyond the grave, but He will not save us beyond the grave. There is not a single Scripture that indicates that there is a possibility of changing our eternal destiny after we die. Because it is allotted once for a man to die, and then he will go to Judgement. And he will be judged by what is written in God's book, the Book of Life, and the book that records what that person did in this life (nothing else).

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Obviously.

Again, God's love for us is not synonymous with salvation. He will love us beyond the grave, but He will not save us beyond the grave.

Intriguing thought. You recognize that God will love those people beyond the grave, even if they are never saved. Well, That’s a big step forward in the right direction, Doug.
Once you have acknowledged this, I would encourage you to think how this love will be expressed.
A love that does nothing in favor of the beloved person is not love. isn’t it?
That’s why God says through Jesus that He chastens those He loves.

Since Jesus used as analogy the love of a human father to illustrate the love of The Father, please imagine what kind of love would I have to my daughter if I sent her to prison, not to learn anything and reform her life…. not to protect anyone else… not to pay back or repair anything… just to suffer for the sake of suffering.
Suppose I don’t visit her in jail, nor talk to her, nor seek medical attention for her, nor help her in any way… and yet I say I love her.
Would that be love?

 

[Doug Brents]

Intriguing thought. You recognize that God will love those people beyond the grave, even if they are never saved. Well, That’s a big step forward in the right direction, Doug.

Read back through my posts, this is not a new thought on my part; just that you have finally caught on.

Once you have acknowledged this, I would encourage you to think how this love will be expressed.
A love that does nothing in favor of the beloved person is not love. isn’t it?
That’s why God says through Jesus that He chastens those He loves.

Since Jesus used as analogy the love of a human father to illustrate the love of The Father, please imagine what kind of love would I have to my daughter if I sent her to prison, not to learn anything and reform her life…. not to protect anyone else… not to pay back or repair anything… just to suffer for the sake of suffering.
Suppose I don’t visit her in jail, nor talk to her, nor seek medical attention for her, nor help her in any way… and yet I say I love her.
Would that be love?

You misconstrue the purpose of Hell. It is a place in which all evil is removed, to protect the good from the stain and contamination of evil. It is not a place of suffering for the sake of suffering. It is the life that the evil have chosen by their own actions. Those who love God will receive the reward of love. Those who love only themselves (everyone who does not love God) will receive the reward of selfishness. Yes, God will love everyone He sends there, but just as you would send your daughter to her just reward for crimes (whether theft, or murder, or whatever) committed, so too God will send all who are evil to hell for eternity.