The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

[Pancho Frijoles]

It is not a place of suffering for the sake of suffering.

I agree that the purpose of hell is not suffering for the sake of suffering.
It is suffering for the sake of something else. Suffering has a purpose.

What would this purpose be?
You mention in your post two purposes:

1. To remove evil
2. To protect the good from contamination from evil.

Let's examine these two purposes:

TO REMOVE EVIL:
I agree with you, but if the damned continue to be evil for eternity, how is that evil removed?
There are only 2 ways to remove evil: by annihilation or by transformation/purification. Both are represented symbolically by fire.

TO PROTECT THE GOOD FROM CONTAMINATION:
I agree with you again, but I have two questions:

• Why would the threat of contamination be permanent over the good ones? The ideal society is not one that keeps its jails full of prisoners for life, but one that performs a successful rehabilitation of those criminals so that they can get back to society as honest, productive men. The ideal society is the one that keeps its jails almost empty.
• Wouldn't isolation /separation be enough? Why would the criminals need to be tortured day and night forever? When you go to visit a prisoner, you don't want to see him or her being tortured. You want to see him/her reading, learning pottery or computers or theater, doing sports.

Annihilation and transformation are two far better ways to remove evil and to protect the good.

 

[Studyman]

Can a false christ save a person if they believe in an unbiblical Jesus ? yes or no

A religious sect or business that "Comes in Christ's Name" but doesn't believe Moses and the Prophets is no better than a religious sect or business that doesn't come in Christ's Name and doesn't believe Moses and the Prophets.

The Jesus "of the Bible" believed Moses and the Prophets and instructed men to "Live By" the Words of God delivered therein. Can a christ that doesn't believe Moses and the Prophets save someone? I think not.

Can a false gospel save anyone who believes in a false gospel ? yes or no

The Bible isn't a false Gospel, in my view. I believe every jot and title written therein. Shall a man cherry pick the Words of God and then judge them, some as worthy of honor and respect, and others as not worthy of honor and respect, and then call it the Gospel of Christ? Is this how the Jesus "of the bible" lived? I think not.

Can a false god save anyone who believes in. a false god ? yes or no

What is a false god? In this world's religious system, a world God placed me in, there is a god promoted who was a friend of Abraham, and when Abraham's children had lost sight of God in Egypt, HE had compassion on them, and did many wonderful works to show these children that HE was the God of their fathers. And after He gained their trust, and left Egypt with Him, HE placed on their necks egregious Laws and Judgments impossible to obey, then lied to them by telling them they could obey Him, then slaughtered them by the thousands when they didn't obey Him. So His Son had to come and save mankind from this god.

This is not the God and Father of the Lord's Christ as defined in the Holy Scriptures, but a false god that only exists in the hearts of men who have adopted this world's religious sects and businesses. Can this god save anyone? I think not.

Can an idol save anyone who believes in that idol/ idolatry ? yes or no

Are idols or the religious sects and businesses of this world who promote them able to save anyone? I think not.

As the Jesus "of the Bible" declares;

John 4: 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

[civic]

A religious sect or business that "Comes in Christ's Name" but doesn't believe Moses and the Prophets is no better than a religious sect or business that doesn't come in Christ's Name and doesn't believe Moses and the Prophets.

The Jesus "of the Bible" believed Moses and the Prophets and instructed men to "Live By" the Words of God delivered therein. Can a christ that doesn't believe Moses and the Prophets save someone? I think not.



The Bible isn't a false Gospel, in my view. I believe every jot and title written therein. Shall a man cherry pick the Words of God and then judge them, some as worthy of honor and respect, and others as not worthy of honor and respect, and then call it the Gospel of Christ? Is this how the Jesus "of the bible" lived? I think not.



What is a false god? In this world's religious system, a world God placed me in, there is a god promoted who was a friend of Abraham, and when Abraham's children had lost sight of God in Egypt, HE had compassion on them, and did many wonderful works to show these children that HE was the God of their fathers. And after He gained their trust, and left Egypt with Him, HE placed on their necks egregious Laws and Judgments impossible to obey, then lied to them by telling them they could obey Him, then slaughtered them by the thousands when they didn't obey Him. So His Son had to come and save mankind from this god.

This is not the God and Father of the Lord's Christ as defined in the Holy Scriptures, but a false god that only exists in the hearts of men who have adopted this world's religious sects and businesses. Can this god save anyone? I think not.



View attachment 1587 View attachment 1589 View attachment 1591 View attachment 1592

Are idols or the religious sects and businesses of this world who promote them able to save anyone? I think not.

As the Jesus "of the Bible" declares;

John 4: 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

You didn’t answer the questions but instead gave the run around

 

[Studyman]

You didn’t answer the questions but instead gave the run around

I answered them perfectly according to what is actually taught in Scriptures.

 

[civic]

I answered them perfectly according to what is actually taught in Scriptures.

no they were yes or no questions you did not answer. let your yes be yes and your no , no Matthew 5:37

obey Jesus command and answers the questions you were asked and avoided.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

no they were yes or no questions you did not answer. let your yes be yes and your no , no Matthew 5:37

obey Jesus command and answers the questions you were asked and avoided.

Mat 5:37 deals about swearing. Please read the passage.
Answering questions in a debate with a “Yes” or a “No” requires understanding with clarity the terms of the question and the purpose of the question.

 

[synergy]

Are idols or the religious sects and businesses of this world who promote them able to save anyone? I think not.

As the Jesus "of the Bible" declares;

John 4: 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

All statues you presented are idols except for Jesus. How can Jesus' posture of his loving open-armed acceptance of all who believe in him be an idol? Are you against Jesus' gift of salvation for all those who believe in him? Nobody in this day and age is mistaking the statue for the real Jesus. I don't know of anyone who mistakens a statue for the real Jesus, do you?

 

[civic]

Mat 5:37 deals about swearing. Please read the passage.
Answering questions in a debate with a “Yes” or a “No” requires understanding with clarity the terms of the question and the purpose of the question.

They were simple to understand questions regarding an idol, false god/ christ saving a person.

It was avoided like the plague

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

They were simple to understand questions regarding an idol, false god/ christ saving a person.

It was avoided like the plague

You’re right. They were simple questions. My apologies.
As per my post 313, a false God, a false Christ, a false gospel, cannot save.

 

[Doug Brents]

I agree that the purpose of hell is not suffering for the sake of suffering.
It is suffering for the sake of something else. Suffering has a purpose.

What would this purpose be?
You mention in your post two purposes:

1. To remove evil
2. To protect the good from contamination from evil.

Let's examine these two purposes:

TO REMOVE EVIL:
I agree with you, but if the damned continue to be evil for eternity, how is that evil removed?

Evil is not removed from the evil. They are evil, and will forever be evil. They and their evil is removed from the good, the righteous, and the abode of God.

There are only 2 ways to remove evil: by annihilation or by transformation/purification. Both are represented symbolically by fire.

These are not the only two ways to "remove evil". Evil can be removed by banishing the evil ones to Hell for eternity.

TO PROTECT THE GOOD FROM CONTAMINATION:
I agree with you again, but I have two questions:

• Why would the threat of contamination be permanent over the good ones? The ideal society is not one that keeps its jails full of prisoners for life, but one that performs a successful rehabilitation of those criminals so that they can get back to society as honest, productive men. The ideal society is the one that keeps its jails almost empty.

This life is the only opportunity one has to be rehabilitated. There is no rehabilitation for a soul after the death of this physical form. After death, the destination of that soul is set for eternity. The contamination of evil in that soul is permanent, and the threat of the spread of that contamination must be removed to protect the righteous. Therefore, God removes all evil to Hell for all eternity.

• Wouldn't isolation /separation be enough? Why would the criminals need to be tortured day and night forever? When you go to visit a prisoner, you don't want to see him or her being tortured. You want to see him/her reading, learning pottery or computers or theater, doing sports.

Again, you are thinking in terms of this life (which is natural since this life is the only frame of reference we have outside of Scripture). The torture in Hell is primarily the torture of being completely separated from the life-giving source that is God. Having been in His presence for the brief span of Judgement, the evil ones are then completely removed from His presence, and denied that presence forever. This is the source of their torment (I think).

Annihilation and transformation are two far better ways to remove evil and to protect the good.

First, from what I can seen in Scripture, spiritual beings cannot be annihilated; spiritual beings are immortal.
Second, the only opportunity for transformation is during this physical life.

 

[Studyman]

no they were yes or no questions you did not answer. let your yes be yes and your no , no Matthew 5:37

obey Jesus command and answers the questions you were asked and avoided.

As I said and my post clearly show, I did answer your questions, and did not avoid them at all. And for the record, the Jesus "of the Bible", did not command me to answer every question that proceeds from the mouth of the "many" who "come in Christ's Name" but refuse to be "Doers" of His Sayings, instead He instructed me to "Take Heed" of them so as not to be deceived by them. I answered them out of Love for the brethren.

Can a false christ save a person if they believe in an unbiblical Jesus ? yes or no

Can a christ that doesn't believe Moses and the Prophets save someone? I think not.

Can a false gospel save anyone who believes in a false gospel ? yes or no

Shall a man cherry pick the Words of God and then judge them, some as worthy of honor and respect, and others as not worthy of honor and respect, and then call it the Gospel of Christ? I think not.

Can a false god save anyone who believes in. a false god ? yes or no

What is a false god? In this world's religious system, a world God placed me in, there is a god promoted who was a friend of Abraham, and when Abraham's children had lost sight of God in Egypt, HE had compassion on them, and did many wonderful works to show these children that HE was the God of their fathers. And after He gained their trust, and left Egypt with Him, HE placed on their necks egregious Laws and Judgments impossible to obey, then lied to them by telling them they could obey Him, then slaughtered them by the thousands when they didn't obey Him. So His Son had to come and save mankind from this god.

This is not the God and Father of the Lord's Christ as defined in the Holy Scriptures, but a false god that only exists in the hearts of men who have adopted this world's religious sects and businesses. Can this god save anyone? I think not.

Can an idol save anyone who believes in that idol/ idolatry ? yes or no

Are idols or the religious sects and businesses of this world who promote them able to save anyone? I think not.

I hope this helps.

 

[civic]

As I said and my post clearly show, I did answer your questions, and did not avoid them at all. And for the record, the Jesus "of the Bible", did not command me to answer every question that proceeds from the mouth of the "many" who "come in Christ's Name" but refuse to be "Doers" of His Sayings, instead He instructed me to "Take Heed" of them so as not to be deceived by them. I answered them out of Love for the brethren.



Can a christ that doesn't believe Moses and the Prophets save someone? I think not.



Shall a man cherry pick the Words of God and then judge them, some as worthy of honor and respect, and others as not worthy of honor and respect, and then call it the Gospel of Christ? I think not.



What is a false god? In this world's religious system, a world God placed me in, there is a god promoted who was a friend of Abraham, and when Abraham's children had lost sight of God in Egypt, HE had compassion on them, and did many wonderful works to show these children that HE was the God of their fathers. And after He gained their trust, and left Egypt with Him, HE placed on their necks egregious Laws and Judgments impossible to obey, then lied to them by telling them they could obey Him, then slaughtered them by the thousands when they didn't obey Him. So His Son had to come and save mankind from this god.

This is not the God and Father of the Lord's Christ as defined in the Holy Scriptures, but a false god that only exists in the hearts of men who have adopted this world's religious sects and businesses. Can this god save anyone? I think not.



Are idols or the religious sects and businesses of this world who promote them able to save anyone? I think not.

I hope this helps.

Thanks for clarifying!

 

[Studyman]

All statues you presented are idols except for Jesus. How can Jesus' posture of his loving open-armed acceptance of all who believe in him be an idol? Are you against Jesus' gift of salvation for all those who believe in him? Nobody in this day and age is mistaking the statue for the real Jesus. I don't know of anyone who mistakens a statue for the real Jesus, do you?

Well of course the statue of Zues or Venus or who you call "Jesus" is not the "real" Zues or Venus or Jesus, in the eyes of those who have adopted the specific religious sects who promote them. And the believer of the Roman gods would call the statue you call "Jesus" an idol, in the same way you judge their statues as idols.

The "Jesus" of the Bible said He actually saw God. Did HE then create an image of God in the likeness of anything on earth or in the heavens? Of course not, such a religious tradition, although popular in this world's religious system, is forbidden by the God and Father of the Lord's Christ. The Jesus "of the bible" said men are to "Live by" the Words of God His Father, Words that HE said would not pass as long as the heavens He walked under, and earth HE walked in remains. It is an undeniable truth that I am walking on the same earth that the Jesus "of the bible" walked. And I am awaiting His Return for the fulfillment of all things Prophesied by Moses and Prophets concerning Him.

So the tradition of creating images of God in the likeness of men or women or animals is a long held religious tradition practiced by this world's religious sects and businesses long before God placed you or me in the world.

And who are these Statutes created for? Does God need to see a statue or necklace, or image or bumper sticker to know who has "Yielded themselves" to Him and who has not? Of course not. These Idols and images are created to be seen of men, just like the man-made temples of wood and stone, just like the cross and the "Jesus Bobblehead" or any religious symbol.



Didn't the "Jesus" of the Bible say, "Be not ye therefore like unto them"? And in another place, "Come out of her My people"?

When a man "Yields Himself" to become a "doer" of the Christ's Sayings, and not a hearer only, he will see that there is really no difference at all between any of the religious sects and businesses which make up this world's religious system. Only in the hearts of those who have adopted them.

 

[synergy]

Didn't the "Jesus" of the Bible say, "Be not ye therefore like unto them"? And in another place, "Come out of her My people"?

When a man "Yields Himself" to become a "doer" of the Christ's Sayings, and not a hearer only, he will see that there is really no difference at all between any of the religious sects and businesses which make up this world's religious system. Only in the hearts of those who have adopted them.

There were many images in the Solomon's Temple. Are you saying that people should have come out of that Temple? We are all made in the image of God. Evidently, there are images that are acceptable to God. We just should never make idols out of them.

 

[Behold]

3. UNIVERSALIST SOLUTION:
God's plan was to save everyone, sooner or later, persuading (not forcing) men to accept the Gospel. So, his plan is not frustrated because that's exactly what happens in the end.

The Theology of Universalism is designed to cause an unbeliever to believe He will be saved in the end, so, no need to trust in Christ and be born again, even tho Jesus told them.....""you MUST be born again""", and you can't be born again unless you TRUST IN CHRIST.
So, that secures His damnation.

Universalism is designed to keep you from trusting in Christ, which keeps you from being born again, which secures your eternal damnation.

In this we see the Devil's work.

A.) Universalism is of the Devil, and its Preachers/Ministers/Teachers are no different.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Evil is not removed from the evil. They are evil, and will forever be evil. They and their evil is removed from the good, the righteous, and the abode of God.

These are not the only two ways to "remove evil". Evil can be removed by banishing the evil ones to Hell for eternity.

That’s not what I understand by “removed”.
To me, the removal of evil means the removal of evil from existence.
You seem to believe in the eternity of evil. Evil, however, is something to be destroyed. Spiritual death is something to be destroyed. In that way God can be all in all.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Theology of Universalism is designed to cause an unbeliever to believe He will be saved in the end, so, no need to trust in Christ and be born again, even tho Jesus told them.....""you MUST be born again""", and you can't be born again unless you TRUST IN CHRIST.
So, that secures His damnation.

Universalism is designed to keep you from trusting in Christ, which keeps you from being born again, which secures your eternal damnation.

In this we see the Devil's work.

A.) Universalism is of the Devil, and its Preachers/Ministers/Teachers are no different.

Hi Behold.

No, universalism does not bypass the necessity of repenting and being born again.
Salvation necessarily implies repenting and being born again. Otherwise it is not salvation.
So, the greedy needs to be saved from his greed, and the violent from his violence, or otherwise cannot enter the presence of God.

Universalism affirms that suffering is a consequence of sin. If I sin, I will suffer. There is no joy nor peace in sin.
So hell exists, as a condition of painful and sorrowful separation from God.
But hell has a purpose, derived from God’s love.

 

[Doug Brents]

That’s not what I understand by “removed”.
To me, the removal of evil means the removal of evil from existence.
You seem to believe in the eternity of evil. Evil, however, is something to be destroyed. Spiritual death is something to be destroyed. In that way God can be all in all.

"To me" is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what you think. What matters is what God said. God said that all evil will spend all of eternity in Hell with Satan.

Evil cannot be measured on its own. Like darkness can only be measured by the amount of light present, and coldness can only be measured by the amount of heat present, you can only measure evil by the amount of goodness present (or lack thereof). In Heaven, there will be NO evil; in Hell there will be NO good.

 

[TedT]

"To me" is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what you think. What matters is what God said. God said that all evil will spend all of eternity in Hell with Satan.

Please consider,
The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion by a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Claiming to only follow what GOD said without thinking is most often the hubris of the very young, it sounds oh so holy.

Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions. All theology as choosing between options by liking some ideas and not liking others is by eisegesis...

 

[Studyman]

There were many images in the Solomon's Temple. Are you saying that people should have come out of that Temple?

God, at least the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, doesn't dwell in temples made of wood and stone. So yes, if the Temple promotes for doctrines the traditions, commandments and philosophies of men, we should come out of that man-made shrine of worship made of wood and stone.

We are all made in the image of God.

This is true. God made us, we didn't create ourselves. And HE gave us His Judgments. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth".

God is a Spirit, and Jesus said that "True worshippers" worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. God made men. But this world's religious sects and businesses created the following graven images, after their own likeness. God did not make these images of Himself after the likeness of men. Rather, they were created by men who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate". By "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord but work iniquity. You are free to engage in this popular religious behavior, as Solomon was also enticed to do. But God has already promised the outcome of such behavior. And I believe Him.

Evidently, there are images that are acceptable to God. We just should never make idols out of them.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth".

I get that each religious sect will defend and promote their adopted image of God in the likeness of man. But how is one adopted image of God any different than the others? Do you think that just because men call their image, "Jesus", that they are above the Commandment?