The Trinity study ,plural references to God in the Old Testament:Plural nouns, pronouns, verbs, adverbs

[amazing grace]

<snip>
The word "nature" in Heb 1:3, with Strong#G5287, in Greek "ὑπόστασις hypostasis" defined by Mounce Bible lexicon means as - essence, etc.

While, Louw and Nida Greek-English Lexicon based on semantic domain define the it as means -the essential or basic nature of an entity, substance, nature, essence, real being etc.

Thus, Bible lexicons definition proves that Jesus is the exact representation of God the Fathers essence as God.
Also as the as the substance, real being, essential nature, essence of God the Father.

Heb 1:3 N1And He is the radianceG541 of His gloryG1391 and the exactG5481 R1representationG5481 of His natureG5287, and N2 R2upholdsG5342 allG3956 thingsG3956 by the wordG4487 of His powerG1411. When He had madeG4160 R3purificationG2512 of sinsG266, He R4satG2523 downG2523 at the rightG1188 handG1188 of the R5MajestyG3172 on highG5308.

G5287 (Mounce)
ὑπόστασις hypostasis
5x: pr. a standing under; a taking of a thing upon one’s self; an assumed position, an assumption of a specific character, 2Co_11:17; an engagement undertaken with regard to the conduct of others, a vouching, 2Co_9:4; or of one’s self, a pledged profession, Heb_3:14; an assured impression, a mental realizing, Heb_11:1; a substructure, basis; subsistence, essence, Heb_1:3.

G5287 (Louw and Nida Greek- English Lexicon)
ὑπόστασις hypostasis
the essential or basic nature of an entity - 'substance, nature, essence, real being.
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)

If the main meaning of hypostasis is essence why out of the 5x it's used, is it translated 'confidence, confident' 3x?
KJV - has exact image of his person (1x) at Hebrews 1:3 and then Hebrews 11:1 translated 'substance' (1x), why wasn't it translated 'essence'?

YES, Jesus reflected the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature..... Jesus made purification for sins and is at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Jesus reflects and is the express imprint ---- (charakter - the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile)

exact representation of God the Fathers essence as God......nope a representation is not the original.

 

[atpollard]

Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

That does not say that Jesus made the world.

???

Who is the "whom" in "Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world." if not Jesus? What does it mean to "make the world" THROUGH someone, but that person DOES NOT "make the world"?

... then the world was NOT made THROUGH "whom" and scripture misspoke, right???

 

[amazing grace]

???

Who is the "whom" in "Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world." if not Jesus? What does it mean to "make the world" THROUGH someone, but that person DOES NOT "make the world"?

... then the world was NOT made THROUGH "whom" and scripture misspoke, right???

Who is the 'whom'? God's Son - the heir of all things....... to make something THROUGH someone means the someone you are making something THROUGH is not the one doing the making.
This echoes John 1:1 where God created through his Word ---- the word being the personified agent through which God created and that word became flesh, the only Son from the Father. It is the same poetic language John used that the author of Hebrews is using. Hebrews 1:3 --- Jesus is the exact representation of God his Father = John 1:1c 'the word was God' not equal but qualitative. Being a representation of God then he is not God.

 

[atpollard]

Who is the 'whom'? God's Son - the heir of all things....... to make something THROUGH someone means the someone you are making something THROUGH is not the one doing the making.
This echoes John 1:1 where God created through his Word ---- the word being the personified agent through which God created and that word became flesh, the only Son from the Father. It is the same poetic language John used that the author of Hebrews is using. Hebrews 1:3 --- Jesus is the exact representation of God his Father = John 1:1c 'the word was God' not equal but qualitative. Being a representation of God then he is not God.

OK, so "GOD" made the world, and "God's son" did ... WHAT?
You are implying "through" has no meaning: GOD did all and SON did nothing, so how is that "made through"?

That is "GOD made the world and the Son watched GOD do it" [not what scripture says].

 

[amazing grace]

OK, so "GOD" made the world, and "God's son" did ... WHAT?
You are implying "through" has no meaning: GOD did all and SON did nothing, so how is that "made through"?

That is "GOD made the world and the Son watched GOD do it" [not what scripture says].

Since God's Son was not there in Genesis, i.e. in the beginning, the Son did nothing not even watched!
Edited to add: This could also be understood in the context of the 'age to come' ---- Hebrews 2:5. (just saying could be)

Again: This echoes John 1:1 where God created through his Word ---- the word being the personified agent through which God created and that word became flesh, the only Son from the Father. It is the same poetic language John used that the author of Hebrews is using. Hebrews 1:3 --- Jesus is the exact representation of God his Father = John 1:1c 'the word was God' not equal but qualitative. Being a representation of God then he is not God.

God created: By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. [Psalm 33:6]
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself [Isaiah 44:24]

 

[atpollard]

Since God's Son was not there in Genesis, i.e. in the beginning, the Son did nothing not even watched!
Edited to add: This could also be understood in the context of the 'age to come' ---- Hebrews 2:5. (just saying could be)

Tell that to Hebrews 1:2 "in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world."

 

[mikesw]

I mean Jesus didn't exist in the Old Testament except in prophecy. For starters, we have no clear examples of him there saying or doing anything,

Again, your point depends on limiting what you think can be the preexisting One who becomes incarnate as Jesus. The preexistence would essentially have to be without the name Jesus. How can you exclude the Angel of the Lord and the Word of the Lord if these would not be able to be called Jesus even if the preexistent One who becomes incarnate? He even is called the logos of the Lord when using the LXX, like Zeph 1:1 (whether or not that is the clearest example).

but also Scripture states that speaking through the Son isn't the way God spoke in the beginning, when God was speaking to create, contrary to trinitarians stating that Jesus is the Word of creation. Doesn't jive well with Scripture.

Hebrews 1
1God, having spoken long ago to our fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,

The errors of your thinking have been addressed. You question remains nonsensical.
Remember that the problem with your use of Heb 1:2 here is that it refers to the physical person Jesus speaking among the Jews in the first century about their judgment and the gift of his sacrifice for their sins. Nor does that deny the preexisting One in any sense. The verse exists limited to what is said in the last days without mention of that One speaking in previous days nor of speaking to narrow people. The problem with unitarian thought is the heavy effort to find anything and everything, no matter how weak, to deny who Christ is.

 

[amazing grace]

Tell that to Hebrews 1:2 "in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world."

In these last days (God) has spoken to us in HIS Son, whom He (God) appointed heir of all things, through whom (the Son) also HE (God) made the world...... God created ---- through the Son, through God's personified word/wisdom.

God created: By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. [Psalm 33:6]
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself [Isaiah 44:24]

I don't think I can talk to "Hebrews 1:2" but I'm sure the author of Hebrews was familiar with OT scipture in which God alone created the heavens, the earth, the world.

 

[JesusFan]

Nothing in the Bible says that.

Its right there in the OT

 

[mikesw]

In these last days (God) has spoken to us in HIS Son, whom He (God) appointed heir of all things, through whom (the Son) also HE (God) made the world...... God created ---- through the Son, through God's personified word/wisdom.

That is a grand glossing over of Heb 1:2. I thought you could make better arguments than that.
Creation could not be through the Son in any respect if he only exists in the first century.

I don't think I can talk to "Hebrews 1:2" but I'm sure the author of Hebrews was familiar with OT scipture in which God alone created the heavens, the earth, the world.

So then the writer of Hebrews would be unaware that creation was done through the preexisting One who became incarnate as Jesus? You might as well reject the whole NT when whitewashing the testimony of who Jesus is. You just gloss over the testimony in Heb 1:2 with your imaginary "what the author of Hebrews would think."

 

[JesusFan]

No reference to a pre-existence here. No mention of Jesus in the Old Testament.

No, as was not named jesus intil the Incarnation, but appeared before the Incarnation in those OT places mentioned

 

[JesusFan]

I mean Jesus didn't exist in the Old Testament except in prophecy. For starters, we have no clear examples of him there saying or doing anything, but also Scripture states that speaking through the Son isn't the way God spoke in the beginning, when God was speaking to create, contrary to trinitarians stating that Jesus is the Word of creation. Doesn't jive well with Scripture.

Hebrews 1
1God, having spoken long ago to our fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,

pewr the Boible God spoke all creation into existence, and Jesus was that eternal Word of the Father

 

[JesusFan]

amazing grace why skip my Post#101?

The word "nature" in Heb 1:3, with Strong#G5287, in Greek "ὑπόστασις hypostasis" defined by Mounce Bible lexicon means as - essence, etc.

While, Louw and Nida Greek-English Lexicon based on semantic domain define the it as means -the essential or basic nature of an entity, substance, nature, essence, real being etc.

Thus, Bible lexicons definition proves that Jesus is the exact representation of God the Fathers essence as God.
Also as the as the substance, real being, essential nature, essence of God the Father.

Heb 1:3 N1And He is the radianceG541 of His gloryG1391 and the exactG5481 R1representationG5481 of His natureG5287, and N2 R2upholdsG5342 allG3956 thingsG3956 by the wordG4487 of His powerG1411. When He had madeG4160 R3purificationG2512 of sinsG266, He R4satG2523 downG2523 at the rightG1188 handG1188 of the R5MajestyG3172 on highG5308.

G5287 (Mounce)
ὑπόστασις hypostasis
5x: pr. a standing under; a taking of a thing upon one’s self; an assumed position, an assumption of a specific character, 2Co_11:17; an engagement undertaken with regard to the conduct of others, a vouching, 2Co_9:4; or of one’s self, a pledged profession, Heb_3:14; an assured impression, a mental realizing, Heb_11:1; a substructure, basis; subsistence, essence, Heb_1:3.

G5287 (Louw and Nida Greek- English Lexicon)
ὑπόστασις hypostasis
the essential or basic nature of an entity - 'substance, nature, essence, real being.
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)

All that makes the ftaher to be God is also what Jesus has and possesses

 

[JesusFan]

Yes exactly, Jesus represents the nature of God. That's what we're saying too. Representing the divine nature of God is something others can do too.

2 Peter 1
4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Jesus exact image in visble form of the Invisible God the father, as ONLY He could say if you seen me, you have seen the father

 

[JesusFan]

That is a grand glossing over of Heb 1:2. I thought you could make better arguments than that.
Creation could not be through the Son in any respect if he only exists in the first century.

So then the writer of Hebrews would be unaware that creation was done through the preexisting One who became incarnate as Jesus? You might as well reject the whole NT when whitewashing the testimony of who Jesus is. You just gloss over the testimony in Heb 1:2 with your imaginary "what the author of Hebrews would think."

That would mean the Holy Spirit was very ignorant, as he inspired the author to write down Hebrews, and have Jesus exalted as very God

 

[Runningman]

Again, your point depends on limiting what you think can be the preexisting One who becomes incarnate as Jesus. The preexistence would essentially have to be without the name Jesus. How can you exclude the Angel of the Lord and the Word of the Lord if these would not be able to be called Jesus even if the preexistent One who becomes incarnate? He even is called the logos of the Lord when using the LXX, like Zeph 1:1 (whether or not that is the clearest example).

You still lack any evidence that your opinions are textually accurate. Jesus is never stated to be the angel of the Lord, no one ever referred to Jesus as such or suggested he is.

The errors of your thinking have been addressed. You question remains nonsensical.
Remember that the problem with your use of Heb 1:2 here is that it refers to the physical person Jesus speaking among the Jews in the first century about their judgment and the gift of his sacrifice for their sins. Nor does that deny the preexisting One in any sense. The verse exists limited to what is said in the last days without mention of that One speaking in previous days nor of speaking to narrow people. The problem with unitarian thought is the heavy effort to find anything and everything, no matter how weak, to deny who Christ is.

So God spoke to the prophets in the past, but speaking in the past through the Son isn't a way God spoke to the prophets, but rather God only spoke to prophets through the Son in these last days. When God speaks, it doesn't mean the Son is speaking because the Son isn't God. Furthermore, the Son (Jesus) is an appointed heir, not the first cause or sovereign owner.

See what I mean now? Your theory about Jesus pre-existing and saying or doing anything is a Biblical impossibility. The Son speaking prior to his creation is not a biblically viable doctrine. As you can see, Hebrews 1:1,2 directly contradicts your claims.

 

[Runningman]

Its right there in the OT

Please provide the verse that says "he (Jesus) appeared to Joshua, to Samson parents, to Abraham with the 2 Angels etc"

 

[Runningman]

No, as was not named jesus intil the Incarnation, but appeared before the Incarnation in those OT places mentioned

The Bible never says Jesus is an incarnate being or person. Please show where Jesus is in the OT under a different name or title if not by the name of Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

pewr the Boible God spoke all creation into existence, and Jesus was that eternal Word of the Father

Never read that in any Bible and I have read most versions. I could see maybe The Message or Passion Translation saying something like that somewhere.

 

[mikesw]

You still lack any evidence that your opinions are textually accurate. Jesus is never stated to be the angel of the Lord, no one ever referred to Jesus as such or suggested he is.

They can recognize Jesus as such and then share it like done in Heb 1:2. Your basis for rejection of the testimony of scripture is far too self-assured rather than supported by anything you have said.

So God spoke to the prophets in the past, but speaking in the past through the Son isn't a way God spoke to the prophets, but rather God only spoke to prophets through the Son in these last days. When God speaks, it doesn't mean the Son is speaking because the Son isn't God. Furthermore, the Son (Jesus) is an appointed heir, not the first cause or sovereign owner.

That is not what Heb 1:2 says. The point is that God sent his Son in the flesh as a prophet of warning at that time. That verse does not prohibit the Word of Yahweh in the OT coming to prophets and then becoming flesh as Jesus. It becomes obvious the bias you use against the testimony of Jesus.

See what I mean now? Your theory about Jesus pre-existing and saying or doing anything is a Biblical impossibility. The Son speaking prior to his creation is not a biblically viable doctrine. As you can see, Hebrews 1:1,2 directly contradicts your claims.

Maybe you can also demonstrate your rejection of Jesus in the creation of the world per Heb 1:2.