The Trinity study ,plural references to God in the Old Testament:Plural nouns, pronouns, verbs, adverbs

[Runningman]

we have the testimony of what Jesus said and John shared. But that is not enough for unitarians.
We show probable examples of the Angel of the Lord that is probably the One who became incarnate and known as Jesus. But that is not enough for unitarians.
There simply is not enough evidence of who Jesus is such that a unitarian would be satisfied with his pre-existence.

There are examples of people being foreknown and predestined which is a way to pre-exist in the mind and thoughts of God. Of all the people who were foreknown by God, none of them pre-existed their birth. Since there is no example of Jesus pre-existing his birth then the way Jesus could have pre-existed would be in God's plans and foreknowledge, hence there are prophecies of a future messiah in the Old Testament, but no example of anyone who could be recognized as Jesus actually pre-existing.

 

[Runningman]

Again. you miss all of John 1. You miss Jesus and John the Baptist speaking of the One who became incarnate as Jesus. There never is an adequate reason shared by unitarians to dismiss their testimony but they keep denying the obvious meaning.

You miss the entire Bible. John 1:1 doesn't alter the absence of Jesus in the Old Testament, it doesn't alter that the Father alone is God, doesn't alter there is no mention of Jesus incarnating in the Bible. You are what I would call a Logos theologian. You laser focus in on John 1:1 and hang your hat on it, but that very narrow focus of Scripture doesn't work.

 

[amazing grace]

You have dodged a fact throughout the entire time I have known you .

Can you answer me in what year the son of God was born from Mary ... and how he got his name..... and when that name was told that he had to be called that.. This is not a trick question, it goes to the point that for all your bellyaching with multiple people about showing you where he's at saying or doing anything prior to his birth, is merely your way of deflecting what you know to be true, but are afraid to admit it.

“Show me Jesus doing or saying something before His birth.”?????????????????????????????????/

If someone expects to see “Jesus of Nazareth walking around talking before Bethlehem,” then no — you will not find that exact form. Because the man Jesus begins at the incarnation (John 1:14).

But Scripture teaches that the Person who became Jesus already existed as the Word/Son before taking flesh.

So the evidence you seek is not “baby Jesus in Genesis,” but the pre-incarnate Son/Word acting before becoming flesh.

Your trouble is you do not want to understand this.....!

Here’s how you can see it biblically and clearly. We will start with..............

1. Direct statements of pre-existence ​

These are not symbolic — they’re plain claims.

John 8:58 “Before Abraham was, I AM.”

Not “I was.” Present tense, divine name (Exodus 3:14).

The Jews tried to stone Him because they understood this as: pre-existence and divine identity
John 17: 5 "Father , glorify me...with the glory I had with you before the world existed.”

Jesus explicitly says He was with the Father before creation sharing divine glory.

There is no way to read that as only “planned in God’s mind.”

The question is not DID Jesus preexist - it is HOW he preexisted - literally or notionally.
Jesus wasn't 'slain from the foundation of the world' [Rev. 13:8] but it was 'according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God'. [Acts 2:23]----It's the language of scripture to say something existed before it actually existed ----- God's plans, God's promises in the Old Testament were so sure to take place that they existed before the world existed, before the foundation of the world, etc.
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you [1 Peter 1:20]

John 6:38 “I came down from heaven.”​

You cannot “come down” from somewhere you never were.

Philippians 2:6–7 “Who, being in the form of God… emptied himself, taking the form of a servant.”​

The proper sequence is he, existed in God’s form ...then took human form.

That is pre-existence before incarnation.

You can come down from heaven if you come from God, God sent you, etc. and this was done by way of a miraculous conception and birth.
Philippians 2 - Paul is teaching about humility - we are to have the same attitude as Christ who denied himself of his status of privilege and took on the attitude of a servant in service and obedience.

2. John tells us who He was before birth​

John 1:1–3, 14 “In the beginning was the Word… the Word was with God… all things were made by him…And the Word became flesh.”​

The only logical way to understand this is He already was , He created all things , then He became flesh

You cannot become something you didn’t exist before.
So: Word , existed then created then became Jesus

You are concerned about....

You cannot exist before you come into existence. The word was God in a qualitative sense, all the qualities of God, his righteousness, his faithfulness, his justice, his kindness, his gentleness, etc. became flesh and dwelt among us......as the only Son from the Father full of grace and truth.

3. Old Testament appearances of the pre-incarnate Son​

This answers the “doing or saying anything before birth” part more directly. Many Christians understand the Angel of the LORD passages this way.

Why?

Because this figure: speaks as God , is called God , yet is distinct from God.

Examples you can look up for yourself.​

Genesis 16 – Hagar​

The Angel of the LORD speaks, Then it says:

“She called the name of the LORD that spoke to her, Thou God seest me.”

Therefore, Angel = LORD = God

Exodus 3 – Burning bush​

“The Angel of the LORD appeared…” then “God called to him out of the bush…”

Same person.

Nope, not the same person ---- God's agent, the one sent by God carries all the authority of God including the authority to speak as God himself. Hebrews says that God spoke in these last days by his Son......... that excludes the OT.

1 Corinthians 10:4, 9 (huge )​

Paul says: “They drank… that Rock was Christ…neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them tempted…”

Paul directly identifies Christ as active in the Exodus.

That is explicit New Testament commentary saying: Christ was there.

This : Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink.” And Moses did so, in the sight of the elders of Israel. ..... is a foreshadowing and type of Christ ----- 1 Cor. 10 is Christ fulfilling the living water.......'For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.' ..... the Rock that followed or came after them was Christ.

4. Reasoning ​

So you say Jesus didn’t exist before birth? Tell me “Then who created the world?”

Because Scripture says: All things made by Him (John 1:3) , By Him all things were created (Col 1:16) , Through whom also He made the worlds (Heb 1:2)

If He created everything, He must exist before everything.

personification of 'word' with a masculine pronoun - All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made....... all things were made through the word - And God said, And God said, And God said, etc.
Colossians 1:16 tells what things were created and it wasn't the things created in the beginning.......

By the word of the LORD (Yahweh) the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. [Psalm 33:6]
Thus says the LORD (Yahweh), your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD (Yahweh), who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, [Isaiah 44:24]

Now here is the clarification you need to avoid confusion:

Jesus as a man ..... begins at Bethlehem
The Son/Word ..... eternal

Therefore
not pre-existent flesh ..... but pre-existent Person

To sum this up.

Jesus didn’t exist as a man before Bethlehem, but the Person who became Jesus did.
Scripture says He was with the Father before creation (John 17:5), came down from heaven (John 6:38), created all things (John 1:3; Col 1:16), and even appeared in the OT (1 Cor 10:4).
The Word existed first — then became flesh (John 1:14).

Gen. 3:15 The offspring of the woman did not pre-exist except in God's plan and foreknowlege - prophecy.
Deut. 18 The prophet God was going to raise up like Moses did not pre-exist except in God's plan and foreknowledge - prophecy.
2 Samuel 7 The descendant of David to come from David's own body did not preexist except in God's plan and foreknowledge - prophecy.

Jesus did not become the Son of God until Luke 1:35 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore (for this reason, because of this) the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God."

View attachment 2812 "Good night, Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are."

I remember you telling me about her!

 

[mikesw]

There are examples of people being foreknown and predestined which is a way to pre-exist in the mind and thoughts of God. Of all the people who were foreknown by God, none of them pre-existed their birth. Since there is no example of Jesus pre-existing his birth then the way Jesus could have pre-existed would be in God's plans and foreknowledge, hence there are prophecies of a future messiah in the Old Testament, but no example of anyone who could be recognized as Jesus actually pre-existing.

you maybe heard that Jesus is not just some man on the street? There is nothing mentioned about prophecy in the verses that we address for pre-existence. Why do you change the topic?

 

[mikesw]

You miss the entire Bible. John 1:1 doesn't alter the absence of Jesus in the Old Testament, it doesn't alter that the Father alone is God, doesn't alter there is no mention of Jesus incarnating in the Bible. You are what I would call a Logos theologian. You laser focus in on John 1:1 and hang your hat on it, but that very narrow focus of Scripture doesn't work.

you get confused because you speak as if a human in a body named Jesus was walking around in the the Old Testament. I see how that can confuse a newbie.
If you like calling Christians as logos theologians, we have to wear that in the glory that Christ gives us. Our goal is to accept what scripture shares rather than cling to a novel, new, gnostic, private interpretation pushed by you.
You just seek to attack the clearest passage and hope that all of scripture will fall after that. All you need is a logical argument to discredit Jesus as the Son of God and show John 1:1 does not mean what John shares with us.

 

[synergy]

Not like that because Jesus is not ever described as an eternal being, not omnipotent, not omniscient, etc. There are plenty examples where the Son in your trinity does not contain those particular characteristics of God, but represents God perfectly in terms on nature, namely the fruits of the Spirit, as @amazing grace so excellently pointed out.

You continue to ignore the fact that the Word, who was God (John 1:1c), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14), proving that Jesus is God.

 

[synergy]

I know nothing about Norse, Roman, or Greek gods.

I know that the Greeks thought gods (sound familiar!) came to earth and the only way I know that is from the record in Acts where the Gentiles thought Paul and Barnabas were gods, i.e. Zeus and Hermes.

Although I have seen Disney movies that depicted Zeus and I think Thor.........

Who else other than God has the "nature of God" (as RM claims) that is eternal and uncreated?

 

[mikesw]

The question is not DID Jesus preexist - it is HOW he preexisted - literally or notionally.
Jesus wasn't 'slain from the foundation of the world' [Rev. 13:8] but it was 'according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God'. [Acts 2:23]----It's the language of scripture to say something existed before it actually existed ----- God's plans, God's promises in the Old Testament were so sure to take place that they existed before the world existed, before the foundation of the world, etc.
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you [1 Peter 1:20]

so the whole of creation came into existence only notionally through Jesus? I guess that means we only notionally exist rather than being breathing and living bodies.
You take a less explicit verse, 1 Peter 1:20, about his deity to deny the more explicit details of his pre-existence with God before being incarnate. Maybe John should have written a version so unitarians would understand scripture.

You can come down from heaven if you come from God, God sent you, etc. and this was done by way of a miraculous conception and birth.
Philippians 2 - Paul is teaching about humility - we are to have the same attitude as Christ who denied himself of his status of privilege and took on the attitude of a servant in service and obedience.

Great. Diminish everything Jesus said of himself so it is nonsensical. I think you missed the parable of God sending servants who were not come down from God but sent God's message to the Jews. That distinguishes Jesus, God's Son, who is sent from God. You just make the contrast totally insignificant.

You cannot exist before you come into existence. The word was God in a qualitative sense, all the qualities of God, his righteousness, his faithfulness, his justice, his kindness, his gentleness, etc. became flesh and dwelt among us......as the only Son from the Father full of grace and truth.

Nope, not the same person ---- God's agent, the one sent by God carries all the authority of God including the authority to speak as God himself. Hebrews says that God spoke in these last days by his Son......... that excludes the OT.

Jesus did not exist as Jesus before he had a physical body. That is why John 1:1-18 says the pre-existent One was with God and was God before becoming incarnate as Jesus. Such basic points get so readily missed by hyperliteralist unitarians.

This : Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink.” And Moses did so, in the sight of the elders of Israel. ..... is a foreshadowing and type of Christ ----- 1 Cor. 10 is Christ fulfilling the living water.......'For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.' ..... the Rock that followed or came after them was Christ.

personification of 'word' with a masculine pronoun - All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made....... all things were made through the word - And God said, And God said, And God said, etc.
Colossians 1:16 tells what things were created and it wasn't the things created in the beginning.......

By the word of the LORD (Yahweh) the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. [Psalm 33:6]
Thus says the LORD (Yahweh), your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD (Yahweh), who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, [Isaiah 44:24]

Gen. 3:15 The offspring of the woman did not pre-exist except in God's plan and foreknowlege - prophecy.
Deut. 18 The prophet God was going to raise up like Moses did not pre-exist except in God's plan and foreknowledge - prophecy.
2 Samuel 7 The descendant of David to come from David's own body did not preexist except in God's plan and foreknowledge - prophecy.

Jesus did not become the Son of God until Luke 1:35 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore (for this reason, because of this) the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God."

I remember you telling me about her!

 

[Runningman]

you maybe heard that Jesus is not just some man on the street? There is nothing mentioned about prophecy in the verses that we address for pre-existence. Why do you change the topic?

Please show a verse about Jesus in the Old Testament that is not a prophecy. Thanks.

 

[Runningman]

you get confused because you speak as if a human in a body named Jesus was walking around in the the Old Testament. I see how that can confuse a newbie.
If you like calling Christians as logos theologians, we have to wear that in the glory that Christ gives us. Our goal is to accept what scripture shares rather than cling to a novel, new, gnostic, private interpretation pushed by you.
You just seek to attack the clearest passage and hope that all of scripture will fall after that. All you need is a logical argument to discredit Jesus as the Son of God and show John 1:1 does not mean what John shares with us.

Jesus, Son of Man, Son of God, all different titles for the same identical person. Under what name or title can you find Jesus in the Old Testament? Enough soapboxing, just show the proof if you have any.

 

[Runningman]

You continue to ignore the fact that the Word, who was God (John 1:1c), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14), proving that Jesus is God.

Please provide any supporting evidence that supports your interpretation from anywhere else in scripture. I can support what my point is, but I have a feeling this is going to be something you can't do because the Bible never states the Word is God or the same God as the one it's with anywhere other than John 1:1. Again, minority, fringe, isolated verses don't change the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The Bible is perfectly clear that Jesus isn't God, that Jesus isn't omniscient, isn't immortal, etc.

So just one verse is not a convincing argument at all and it isn't even a verse that is above contest. There are plenty of ways to translate John 1:1 differently as have already been proven.

 

[mikesw]

Please show a verse about Jesus in the Old Testament that is not a prophecy. Thanks.

What do you even mean by that request? Do you want a verse where David says "hi" to Jesus and tells him he is looking good today? You get this weird idea that someone thinks Jesus is being seen by Jabal while on a trip to Ashan.

 

[mikesw]

Jesus, Son of Man, Son of God, all different titles for the same identical person. Under what name or title can you find Jesus in the Old Testament? Enough soapboxing, just show the proof if you have any.

What do you even mean by that request? Do you want a verse where David says "hi" to Jesus and tells him he is looking good today? You get this weird idea that someone thinks Jesus is being seen by Jabal while on a trip to Ashan.

We already see the Two Powers of Heaven where the Angel of the Lord is with Yahweh and speaks as Yahweh. This was recognized by teachers of Judah and was debated. We have the Word of the Lord giving insight to the prophets. If you exclude the source of the prophetic messages, then you just exclude all scripture. The Word of Lord (like Eze 1:3) is not just some vapor nor in the opposite extreme the full glory of God appearing before Ezekiel. You just exclude everything that speaks of the Word acting in conscious action in the OT and then being incarnated as Jesus. Do you have more things you do not like in scripture that you also wish to exclude?
Your questions get weird and more desperate all the time.

 

[Runningman]

What do you even mean by that request? Do you want a verse where David says "hi" to Jesus and tells him he is looking good today? You get this weird idea that someone thinks Jesus is being seen by Jabal while on a trip to Ashan.

Yeah, if Jesus is supposed to be God then he needs to be doing something like God does. I can find where God is directly called Father in the Old Testament, exhaustively with singular person pronouns, never a they or them or a "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" which is not Biblical terminology or phraseology.

 

[Runningman]

What do you even mean by that request? Do you want a verse where David says "hi" to Jesus and tells him he is looking good today? You get this weird idea that someone thinks Jesus is being seen by Jabal while on a trip to Ashan.

We already see the Two Powers of Heaven where the Angel of the Lord is with Yahweh and speaks as Yahweh. This was recognized by teachers of Judah and was debated. We have the Word of the Lord giving insight to the prophets. If you exclude the source of the prophetic messages, then you just exclude all scripture. The Word of Lord (like Eze 1:3) is not just some vapor nor in the opposite extreme the full glory of God appearing before Ezekiel. You just exclude everything that speaks of the Word acting in conscious action in the OT and then being incarnated as Jesus. Do you have more things you do not like in scripture that you also wish to exclude?
Your questions get weird and more desperate all the time.

No that angel of the Lord isn't YHWH. Angels are messengers, the ones sent, the representatives, speaking on behalf of God, doing His bidding, serving Him, etc. You're automatically at a flaw in your line of reasoning since we know God is not an angel.

Furthermore, nothing there identifies Jesus as that angel. I can find examples of the angel and God speaking to each other, showing that the angel is not YHWH. I can also find examples of the angel of the Lord in the New Testament in proximity to Jesus, proving that Jesus isn't an incarnate angel/God.

 

[synergy]

Please provide any supporting evidence that supports your interpretation from anywhere else in scripture.

John's Prologue is not good enough for you? Well, excuse me.

 

[Runningman]

John's Prologue is not good enough for you? Well, excuse me.

Which prologue? The prologue in 1John 1:1-3 describes the Word like a thing.

 

[mikesw]

Yeah, if Jesus is supposed to be God then he needs to be doing something like God does. I can find where God is directly called Father in the Old Testament, exhaustively with singular person pronouns, never a they or them or a "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" which is not Biblical terminology or phraseology.

I'm sorry you did not get God to write the scriptures so that a hyperliteralist unitarian would be convinced of who the Son is. We already have seen how the Angel of Yahweh has been note as Yahweh. The Jews noted this as in found in The Two Powers of Heaven. This was not just Jews who followed Christ understood how God is seen more than in singleness.

 

[mikesw]

No that angel of the Lord isn't YHWH. Angels are messengers, the ones sent, the representatives, speaking on behalf of God, doing His bidding, serving Him, etc. You're automatically at a flaw in your line of reasoning since we know God is not an angel.

Furthermore, nothing there identifies Jesus as that angel. I can find examples of the angel and God speaking to each other, showing that the angel is not YHWH. I can also find examples of the angel of the Lord in the New Testament in proximity to Jesus, proving that Jesus isn't an incarnate angel/God.

Wow. You always are searching for ways to deny the obvious accounts by finding ones not as obvious. We have seen the obvious ones and we have seen where you try to deny the obvious ones and deny what rabbis had found too.

OH my then you try to bring in Jesus as an angel verging on JW doctrine. You might as well bring in Mormon doctrine as an argument. You are going way off topic on this just to deny the deity of Christ.

 

[mikesw]

No that angel of the Lord isn't YHWH. Angels are messengers, the ones sent, the representatives, speaking on behalf of God, doing His bidding, serving Him, etc. You're automatically at a flaw in your line of reasoning since we know God is not an angel.

Furthermore, nothing there identifies Jesus as that angel. I can find examples of the angel and God speaking to each other, showing that the angel is not YHWH. I can also find examples of the angel of the Lord in the New Testament in proximity to Jesus, proving that Jesus isn't an incarnate angel/God.

Indeed the Angel of the Lord saying things and then explained in the passage as Yahweh speaking to the person is not exactly saying it is the One who becomes incarnate as Jesus but it does show the ambiguity that appears of along with God's oneness. Then we also see Jesus speaking how long he has sought to gather Jerusalem's children together (Matt 23:37-39). This is not what a man speaks. There are too many places showing the pre-existence of Christ to believe your novel interpretations.

You have learned a bunch about the Triune God. And you have a bunch of interpretations you think can deny who Jesus is. Write a book on it and let it stand or fall by those who read it.