Runningman
Active Member
Since you seem to show awareness of how to count, that's good to know. How many persons are you counting as God in 1 Corinthians 8:4-6? 1 or 3?
The Trinity study ,plural references to God in the Old Testament:Plural nouns, pronouns, verbs, adverbs
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FreeInChrist
Active Member
No one denies that God the Father is one .
God is a title. Therefore...
God the Son is one and God the Holy Spirit is one.
And that is how you get 3 in one. No over thinking at all.
atpollard
Active Member
None at all! ... EXCEPT FOR ALL THESE FROM THE OP:
A. Two plural pronouns, (Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages. Remember the word God (elohim) is also plural every time it is used in the Old Testament. Gen 11:7 also includes a plural verb (confuse) which even further, through grammar reinforces the plural "elohim" and the plural pronoun US.
- "Our" Gen 1:26
- "Us" Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8
B. These are the four passages where God speaks for Himself and uses plural pronouns:
- "Then God [plural elohim] said, "Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness" Genesis 1:26
- "Then Yahweh God [plural elohim] said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us [plural pronoun], knowing good and evil" Genesis 3:22
- "Come, let Us [plural pronoun] go down and there confuse [plural form of balal] their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." Genesis 11:7
- "Then I heard the voice of the Lord [plural elohim], saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us [plural pronoun]?"" Isaiah 6:8
So the "Alter2Ego bible" is missing the following verses:
- Genesis: 1:26; 3:22; 11:7
- Isaiah 6:8
atpollard
Active Member
"ad hominem"
An ad hominem fallacy is a logical error where someone attacks an opponent's character, motive, or personal attributes instead of addressing the substance of their argument. Latin for "to the person," this tactic aims to discredit an argument by undermining the speaker rather than engaging with evidence.
Key aspects of the ad hominem fallacy include:
- Definition: Shifting focus away from the topic to personal attacks (e.g., calling someone a "numbskull" instead of addressing their claim).
- Types:
- Abusive: Direct insults or attacks on character.
- Circumstantial: Suggesting a person’s argument is invalid due to their circumstances or personal interest.
- Tu Quoque: Discrediting an argument by pointing out hypocrisy, or claiming the speaker is guilty of what they are criticizing.
- Purpose: It is used to divert attention from the real issue and manipulate the audience into rejecting an argument based on irrelevance.
- Why it's a Fallacy: A person's character or personal traits have no inherent bearing on the logic or evidence of their argument.
Runningman
Active Member
But God is referred to with singular personal pronouns, exhaustively, and without exception from cover to cover, thousands of times, but never a they or them. In all languages and cultures throughout the history of human civilization, singular pronouns always refer to one person. Hence God is explicitly defined as one person, not just in pronouns only, but also explicitly identified as the Father alone.
This debate quickly moves from the Bible into the realm of English grammar. That's a debate you'll lose. I hope you weren't thinking you can somehow change English just to suit your religion.
Don't overthink it.
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As no, I believe you confirm that Jesus and Bible lexicon was correct what "anytime" means, as Jesus specifically said about the "voice" of the Father.
You are welcome. Glory to God alone.
I believe the Tetragrammaton is only one, as the personal name of the Father.
The plural pronoun could be use or applied to the "God/Elohim" as it is plural. Singular is "Eloah."
Yes, during the creation week, the three were present, the Holy Spirit, the Logos and the Father.
Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Yisra’ěl: יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one! , יהוה is one!
Job 3:4 Let that day be darkness. Let not Eloah from above seek for it, nor let light shine upon it.
Job 3:4 "May that day be darkness; Let not God above care for it, Nor light shine on it.
Job 3:4 "May that dayH3117 be darknessH2822; Let not GodH433 aboveH4605 careH1875 for it, NorH408 lightH5105 shineH3313 on it.
H430
אלהים 'ĕlôhı̂ym
BDB Definition:
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God
Part of Speech: noun masculine plural
I believe the Tetragrammaton is only one, as the personal name of the Father.
The word God by itself as "Elohim" is plural, though referred with singular pronoun.
If you believe "God" is explicitly defined as one person, Jesus could be that person, as the Father Himself identify Jesus as God. (Heb 1:8,9)
Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Yisra’ěl: יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one!
H430
אלהים 'ĕlôhı̂ym
BDB Definition:
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
I believe English grammar cannot decides what the Biblical Greek grammar supposed to be, they differ significantly.
Biblical (Koine) Greek grammar is not the same as English grammar, they differ significantly in structure, precision, and mechanics. While English relies on word order to convey meaning, Greek is a highly inflected language, using word endings (cases) to determine the grammatical role of words, allowing for more flexible word order. https://www.google.com/search?q=is+Bible+greek+grammar+same+with+english+grammar&client=firefox-b-e&hs=hHu9&sca_esv=e65071d0be4bfe9c&sxsrf=ANbL-n4z8y8aMyXhbaRZyx2wkCX-rc50Hw:1769497549396&ei=zWN4aeX4F87l2roPmaCXwAY&ved=0ahUKEwilk_OGlKuSAxXOslYBHRnQBWgQ4dUDCBE&uact=5&oq=is+Bible+greek+grammar+same+with+english+grammar&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiMGlzIEJpYmxlIGdyZWVrIGdyYW1tYXIgc2FtZSB3aXRoIGVuZ2xpc2ggZ3JhbW1hcjIIEAAYgAQYogQyBRAAGO8FMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYgAQYogRIjSBQ7wZYgBJwAXgBkAEAmAHiAaABjAmqAQUwLjMuM7gBA8gBAPgBAZgCB6ACvwnCAgoQABiwAxjWBBhHwgIEECMYJ8ICCBAAGKIEGIkFwgIIECEYoAEYwwTCAgoQIRigARjDBBgKmAMAiAYBkAYIkgcFMS4zLjOgB-UZsgcFMC4zLjO4B7IJwgcHMC4yLjMuMsgHHYAIAA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@Runningman ,
What's to overthink? No over thinking when facts are facts.... only when twisting those facts to make them fit.
Your argument confuses grammar with ontology. Singular pronouns don’t mean “one person,” they mean one entity.
We say, you and I....
“the team… it”
“the family… it”
“the committee… it”
Singular grammar, multiple persons. So that rule already fails in normal English. And it fails biblically too.
YOU said God is never referred to plurally — but Scripture literally says..
“Let Us make man in Our image” (Gen 1:26)
“one of Us” (Gen 3:22)
“Let Us go down” (Gen 11:7)
“Who will go for Us?” (Isa 6:8)
So grammar clearly isn’t defining personhood.
Also, “God” isn’t a person-word — it’s a nature word.
The Bible calls,
the Father God
the Son God (John 1:1; John 20:28; Heb 1:8) and
the Spirit God (Acts 5:3–4)
Yet says God is one (Deut 6:4).
So either Scripture contradicts itself, or your “one pronoun = one person” rule is wrong.
This isn’t about English grammar. It’s about what Scripture actually says.
REMEMBER....
Singular pronouns prove one being, not one person. We use singulars for groups all the time. Scripture even uses “Us/Our” for God. The Father, Son, and Spirit are each called God, yet God is one. That’s Bible, not grammar.
amazing grace
Active Member
He couldn't possibly have been discussing the creating of human beings with other created spiritual beings, i.e. the angels - who would have been in his presence because it seems much more logical that God was discussing the creating of human beings with the other persons within himself - the second person of the Trinity and the third person of the Trinity. Okay then.
If you believe that God created all things through the Word, before He became flesh in the New Testament.
Who would you believe Whose "speech/logos" was in the Old Testament, that by Him and apart from Him created all things, I believe including angels?
I believe all the "voice/utterances/speeches/logos" was by the "Word" not the Father, except when the Father bore witness or testify for Jesus like Hebrews Chapter 1, the transfiguration, Jesus baptism and etc.
John 1:1-3 is in harmony with John 5:37.
Joh 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
amazing grace
Active Member
God created all things: By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.
God did not become flesh.
We are not discussing John 1.
I believe Yahweh spoke in the OT - either through his own mouth, or through his angels or through his prophets.
But again, none of the above is what the thread is about!!!
John 1 explains the Trinity in the creation week.
The presence of the Spirit, the logos and the Father.
Do that mean you do not believe John 1:3?
Who became flesh in the New Testament?
John 1:1-3, will helps us understand the role of the Trinity in the creation week.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
The worst possible answer for any discussion in any forum starts with I believe or I think. There is not an iota of proof in those words and truly should not be used.....
If you do not believe that one other from the Godhead spoke for God in the OT, yet you can assume that speaking through angels is a viable choice, or through the prophets is also... though generally they seem to indicate that who is being spoken for .... I have one question ......
Since God has many names anyd the one we most commonly use is Father or Heavenly Father, and the Son was given the name Jesus because it was said they had to name him Jesus but the arch angel Gabriel... which by example was identified and was speaking for God......
WHY? was the WORD from John 1 called the WORD?
What would the purpose have been to call an entity the WORD?
In the beginning was the Word.......................................... John 1 even in the NWT.
This " Word" ("Logos" ) was not the Father.
So WHY????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
amazing grace
Active Member
I disagree.
I believe John 1:3 ---- what does that have to do with
We are not discussing John 1 or the Genesis creation.
amazing grace
Active Member
I am so glad you took me off ignore! It's good to see you and I thank you for your opinion.
I am not assuming that God spoke through angels --- It is written:
Hebrews 2:2a For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable .... the message given to angles was given by God and therefore reliable as we see throughout the OT. God sent out his angels to speak for him and act on his behalf.
I am not assuming that God spoke by his prophets --- It is written:
Hebrews 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets ---- God sent out his prophets to speak for him and act on his behalf.
Then it is written:
but in these last days......God spoke by his Son. And if it is "during these last days" that God specifically spoke to us through his Son then he didn't speak through his Son in the OT. Therefore Jesus wasn't speaking when scripture uses us, our, we, in the three records in Genesis and the one in Isaiah.
Why did John use 'word' in John 1:1 because in the beginning God spoke creation into being and without God's powerful creative word/speech nothing would have been created.
The better question would be WHY out of all the usages of logos (some 300x) did the translators capitalize 'Word' in only 4 places? (John 1:1; 1:14; 1 John 1:1; Rev. 19:14) What was the authors intent - an actual person or the use of personification, i.e. attributing a personal nature or human characteristics to something inanimate?
The 'word' (God's word, God's speech) is being personified just as 'wisdom' (God's wisdom) is personified in Proverbs.
The Proverbs wife --- she is the embodiment of God's wisdom just as Jesus is the embodiment of God's word.
Simplicity.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
WORD. You do not know who this is... and it is a who.
Why did John use 'word' in John 1:1 because in the beginning God spoke creation into being and without God's powerful creative word/speech nothing would have been created.
The better question would be WHY out of all the usages of logos (some 300x) did the translators capitalize 'Word' in only 4 places? (John 1:1; 1:14; 1 John 1:1; Rev. 19:14) What was the authors intent - an actual person or the use of personification, i.e. attributing a personal nature or human characteristics to something inanimate?
The 'word' (God's word, God's speech) is being personified just as 'wisdom' (God's wisdom) is personified in Proverbs.
The Proverbs wife --- she is the embodiment of God's wisdom just as Jesus is the embodiment of God's word.
Simplicity.
amazing grace
Active Member
My points were not addressed ........ but "C'est la vie".
I KNOW EXACTLY who my Lord and Christ is . . .
The title of the thread is about "The Trinity study, plural references to God in the Old Testament, Plural noun, pronouns, verb, adverb."
Yes, there are verses that speaks of plural references of God in the Old Testament.
The word "God" with Strong#H430, in Hebrew "אלהים 'ĕlôhı̂ym" is plural, could be referred to divine ones, gods, angels, rulers, judges etc.
Scripture used the first person plural pronoun "us, our" proves that "Elohim" is more than one person whom have the power to create. As "Elohim" created all things through the Word, proves the logos was there, the logos was with God and the the Word was God. It was not stated as "and the Word was the God." It implies a separate, not the Father voice. (John 5:37)
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen 1:26 Then GodH430 saidH559, "Let R1Us makeH6213a R2manH120 in Our imageH6754, according to Our likenessH1823; and let them R3ruleH7287a over the fishH1710 of the seaH3220 and over the birdsH5775 of the N1skyH8064 and over the cattleH929 and over allH3605 the earthH776, and over everyH3605 creepingH7431 thingH7431 that creepsH7430 on the earthH776."
H430
אלהים 'ĕlôhı̂ym
BDB Definition:
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
amazing grace
Active Member
I didn't mean that we had to start the WHOLE conversation OVER!!!
It seems you left out the 'plural intensive - singular meaning'.........
A "plural intensive" (or "plural of majesty") is a linguistic concept, primarily in Hebrew, where a noun uses a plural form (like a plural suffix) but refers to a single entity, emphasizing its greatness, majesty, or power, not its quantity. For example, the Hebrew word Elohim (God) is a plural form used to denote the singular, supreme God, conveying divine greatness rather than multiple gods, as it takes singular verbs and adjectives. -- AI
"God said" ---- said is singular therefore God is singular. That is how the Hebrew works ---- singular verbs, singular pronouns and singular adjectives ----- point to a singular subject.
