The Trinity made easy

[Pancho Frijoles]

1

I also do believe that, Fred.
So, that person, that single person we know as Jesus, received authority from God, and will submit himself eternally to God.
Now think by yourself if God is the one who gave authority or who received authority. The one who submits himself, or the one to whom all submits.

That's your rejection of the fact that God is more than 1 Person.

That is not a fact. It is a belief, and a wrong one.
I am a strictly monotheist theist.
A theist believes God is personal (has a mind, a will)
A mono-theist believes only one person is God.
A poly-theist believes that several persons are God.

Try not dodging Matthew 28:18 next time.
Jesus (right now) has total authority over the universe which demonstrates He is God (Matthew 28:18).

1. First, don't dodge that Jesus claimed in Mathew 28:18 that his authority was given. The verse says: And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
2. Second, don't dodge the numerous verses in which Jesus confirms that everything He says or does is not on his own authority, but under the authorization of His Father.
3. Third, don't dodge the verses in 1 Corinthians 15:27-29 that clarify that the "total authority" is not total. Jesus has no authority over God. Jesus submits to God.
4. Fourth, and most importantly, think twice before accusing another person of dodging. You might be one of the dodgers, just like my dear fellow countryman Fernando Valenzuela.

 

[Fred]

Only one greater can give that authority to another.=YHVH(Jehovah) the Father= the only true God.

Functional subjection does not necessitate ontological inferiority (cf. Eph. 5:24).

 

[Fred]

First, don't dodge that Jesus claimed in Mathew 28:18 that his authority was given.

The boldface below is mine.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. hh


I find it surprising that those who deny the Lord Jesus is God will sometimes refer to Matthew 28:18 and emphasize that Jesus was GIVEN His authority which they think proves Jesus is not God. Those who believe the Lord Jesus is God can account for the fact that He was "given" all authority in that before His resurrection He simply refused to always employ His omnipotence.

1. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): Elsewhere, however, it is said of the Redeemer during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power and appeared in lowliness and humility, Mt. 11:29; 12:18-21; 2 C. 8:9; Phil. 2:5-8...cf. the temptation of Jesus, Mt. 4:8 f. par. Lk. 4:5 f. Thus, when the full power of Jesus is occasionally mentioned during the time of His humiliation, it is merely a proleptic fact. A new situation is brought into being with the crucifixion and resurrection. The Chosen One seizes the full power which He had from the beginning of the world. Mt. 28:18 (5:895, All, B. Reicke).


The Lord Jesus possesses (right now) universal authority which means He is omnipotent/Almighty.
1. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): His omnipotence, in which Christ shares as kyrios (1 C. 8:6; Col. 1:16; Mt. 28:18), extends over the whole world, over heaven and earth (1:679, Earth, S. Sasse).
2. BDAG (3rd Edition): Of Jesus' total authority Mt 28:18 (exousia, page 353).
a. The Oxford English Dictionary: having full or absolute power or authority (Omnipotent, volume 10, page 790).

That Jesus has total (full) authority demonstrates that He is omnipotent (the Almighty).

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Functional subjection does not necessitate ontological inferiority (cf. Eph. 5:24).

It does, when God is in the equation.
God does what He does not because He is exercising a role, job or function that other person could eventually take.
God does what He does because He is what He is.

Functional subjection to God necessitates ontological inferiority to God.

As a footnote, in Ephesians 5:24, is there an ontological inferiority of husbands to Christ?
You can answer the question, Fred, or dodge it. Both things are OK with me.

 

[Fred]

It does, when God is in the equation.

No proof for that assertion.
As seen in post 884 Jesus function in submission to the Father, but this does not detract from Him being the Almighty in equality with the Father.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

before His resurrection He simply refused to always employ His omnipotence.

Before his resurrection Jesus used the power and authority given to Him for the purpose given to Him.
That Jesus knew and publicly preached that his power and authority did not come from him is more than obvious.
How many verses do we need, from the lips of Jesus, to attest that?
I have already provided several, and can do it again, and again, and again, and again... just ask for them, please.
It will always be my pleasure, since I like the topic.


Resurrection and Ascencion didn't change the fact that Jesus considered his Father to be His God. That's why we find the resurrected Jesus in John 20:17, and the exalted Jesus in Revelation 3:12, speaking about God as "My God", and the author of Revelation, in Rev 1:6.
So, any argument of a pre-resurrection and post-resurrection change of relationship towards His God is false.

 

[Fred]

Before his resurrection Jesus used the power and authority given to Him for the purpose given to Him.
That Jesus knew and publicly preached that his power and authority did not come from him is more than obvious.
How many verses do we need, from the lips of Jesus, to attest that?

You are dodging that fact that He has all authority in the universe. This means the same thing as Jesus is the Almighty.

I have already provided several, and can do it again, and again, and again, and again... just ask for them, please.
It will always be my pleasure, since I like the topic.

It wouldn't matter if you could cite a million more examples. This does nothing to prove He isn't God.

Resurrection and Ascencion didn't change the fact that Jesus considered his Father to be His God.

Irrelevant. Jesus is still the Almighty.

That's why we find the resurrected Jesus in John 20:17, and the exalted Jesus in Revelation 3:12, speaking about God as "My God", and the author of Revelation, in Rev 1:6.

The Father saw to it that in Romans 10:13 Jesus is to be prayed to as being YHWH.
So proving the Father is God does not detract from Jesus being God.

So, any argument of a pre-resurrection and post-resurrection change of relationship towards His God is false.

That's your false hope, because my Jesus has all authority in the universe - this is what Matthew 28:18 teaches.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No proof for that assertion.
As seen in post 884 Jesus function in submission to the Father, but this does not detract from Him being the Almighty in equality with the Father.

In the meaning of the concept "God" resides the proof that functional submission to Gods necessitates ontological inferiority.

True equality would mean that The Father can also obey Jesus, and submit to Jesus, and need to be authorized by Jesus to perform X and Y.
True equality would mean that The Father can also act as a Mediator between man and Jesus, and be raised from the dead by Jesus, and many things more.
True equality, in summary, would mean that to be "The Father" or "The Son" means playing a role that can be exchanged.
This is not how Jesus presented his relationship with the Father.

In the meaning of the concept "God" resides the proof that functional submission to Gods necessitates ontological inferiority. Unless... of course... I am debating with a Greek polytheist, who believes that Hermes can submit to Zeus without being ontologically inferior to Zeus.
In such instance, the debate would be over, since "god" for my interlocutor would be a category that, just as "whale", "tree" or "woman", can encompass many individuals.

 

[Fred]

In the meaning of the concept "God" resides the proof that functional submission to Gods necessitates ontological inferiority.

It doesn't.

True equality would mean that The Father can also obey Jesus,

No, because that would also mean that the husband should submit to his wife.
The Bible doesn't teach that.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It wouldn't matter if you could cite a million more examples. This does nothing to prove He isn't God.

One single example suffices, because God by definition don't need authorization or power from anyone else.
Unless, of course, I am debating with a Greek polytheist who believes that Hermes can submit to Zeus, be the messenger of Zeus, need approval from Zeus, and yet be as god as Zeus.
In that case, the debate is over.

 

[Fred]

One single example suffices, because God by definition don't need authorization or power from anyone else.
Unless, of course, I am debating with a Greek polytheist who believes that Hermes can submit to Zeus, be the messenger of Zeus, need approval from Zeus, and yet be as god as Zeus.
In that case, the debate is over.

Does the Jesus you believe in have all authority over the universe (Matthew 28:18)?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Does the Jesus you believe in have all authority over the universe (Matthew 28:18)?

No.
The Jesus I believe has been given by God all authority needed to perform what He has been asked to perform in the time and place He has been asked to perform it.

You keep saying "have" when the text in Mathew 28:8 says "has been given". Since you are a good reader, and the text is in front of your eyes, you seem to de dodging. Furthermore, you keep dodging the explanations Jesus Himself gave to his authority:

• Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. (John 8:28)
• “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. (John 8:54)
• For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. (John 12:49)

 

[Fred]

No.
The Jesus I believe has been given by God all authority

Matthew 28:18 teaches He has all authority --> in the universe (heaven and earth).

Your argument is with this passage.

You'll always lose when refusing to believe what it is teaching.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Matthew 28:18 teaches He has all authority --> in the universe (heaven and earth).

No. It does not. Read again Mathew 28:18, and read the whole gospels, including the three verses I have mentioned from John (there are more).

You'll always lose when refusing to believe what it is teaching.

You have been refuted, Fred.
Fortunately, this has no more relevance than losing to a chess game.
In the eyes of God, you are his beloved son and a sincere believer.

 

[Fred]

No. It does not.

I have already cited enough sources that refute your confusion.



https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-trinity-made-easy.87/page-45#post-148601

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Irrelevant. Jesus is still the Almighty.

It is completely relevant that Jesus calls The Father His God.
By definition, an Almighty being cannot have a God, because such worsihped God would be truly the Almighty God.

This holds true, of course, unless.... unless... unless I am debating with a Greek polytheist.
In such case, Hermes, a god, can call Zeus, another god, his god. No problem.
In such case, the debate is over.

 

[Fred]

It is completely relevant

Dodge.

Matthew 28:18 is still there.

You can come out from hiding now.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I have already cited enough sources that refute your confusion.

Your sources are wrong, and you are confused, my brother.
Functional submission to God necessitates ontological inferiority to God.

This is because the concept of "God" implies supremacy, uniqueness, oneness.

Unless... unless... unless I am debating with a Greek polytheist. He would say that the concept "God" does not imply absolute supremacy, but a set of abilities and features shared in common among several divine persons... dozens, hundreds, and even unknown persons.

 

[Fred]

Your sources are wrong, and you are confused, my brother.

Pathetic.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Matthew 28:18 is still there.

Not there. Here:
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth".

Here are also three verses from Jesus own's lips, explaining his authority.
Will you dodge them or comment on them?

• Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. (John 8:28)
• “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. (John 8:54)
• For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. (John 12:49)

Jesus is the Annointed of God.
To be the Annointed of God, you first need God. It is the person with authority who anoints.

Jesus is the Son of God.
To be the Son of God, you first need God. It is the person who is the source of life who begets a son, and the person with authority who behaves as father of a son.