The Trinity and the Incarnation

[civic]

How trinitarians teach the Trinity...

I say...
If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it?

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

Gods word states in many places that YHWH is plural. These Three are One. Baptism is done also as the Three who are One- in the NAME (singular ) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The same at Sons baptism- we see the Three who are One- the same in Creation- Let Us make man in OUR ( plural ) image after OUR (plural ) likeness. God made adam/eve the TWO ( Plural ) who are One (singular ) flesh- The Unity in marriage reflects the same Unity in our Plural God. There are many other passages that reflect God is plural. The Shema in 1 Corinthians 8:6 reflect both the Father/Son (plural) who are the Co-Creators in that passage- the One God/Lord of the scriptures. The Shema reflects the One God/Lord as Plural.

conclusion: the Trinity is true even though that specific word is not found in the bible but the concept goes from Genesis 1 through Revelation 22. Tri is 3 and Unity is One- Tri-Unity- Trinity. The Plural God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

So you better open that case right back up because your argument just lost all of its steam.

Jesus doesn't know when he returns according to Matthew 24:36,37 so it would be nonsense to say that God doesn't know when He returns, but your argument necessitates this is what your conclusion would be.

Next, God and Jesus appear distinctly, not as the same person, but as one bringing the other.

Θεὸς (Theos) ἄξει (axei) σὺν (syn) αὐτῷ (autō) - "God will bring with Jesus..." is written in such a way as to be a verb in the active voice, performing an action on Jesus being the subject and possessive. In other words, Jesus will receive an action from God that he will not perform himself.

1 Thessalonians 4
14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

Pivoting back to Titus 2:13, now fully understanding that Jesus is not the Great God who is appearing, but rather the Great God and our Savior Jesus are two distinct persons.

Also drop your granville-sharp "rule" arguments. Those are not rules in English grammar nor are they taught to anyone in school. Nor were they rules in Greek grammar. The granville-sharp "rule" was not invented until the late 19th century and early Bibles before that period didn't contain it. Hence, the KJV clearly and grammatically states Jesus and God aren't the same person in the Greek of Titus 2:13.

wrong as I already disproved your fallacious argument and that the terrible KJV translation is a failure as all the other reliable translations show its one person, not 2 persons. Besides that fact we know only the Son is the One who VISIBLY APPEARS/ is COMING, since no man has ever seen the Father who dwells in unapproachable light.

the scriptures rebuke your false doctrine as I have succinctly and thoroughly demonstrated with Scripture in my previous post. you are up a creek without a paddle. you have also ignored all the biblical evidence that exposes your erroneous view and replaced it with your biased view.

next fallacy.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ, that's right all in one.

The phrase "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" is a theological declaration found in Titus 2:13. It is used to affirm the Christian belief that Jesus is both the Son of God and God himself, who came to save humanity from sin. This phrase is often used in discussions about Christ's divinity, the hope for his return, and his role in bringing salvation.

Yep the same with all the passages in 1 Peter that have the exact Greek wording with God and Savior, Lord and Savior. Jesus Christ is being described as both God and Savior, Lord and Savior.

 

[civic]

Jesus returns because God brings Jesus back. Thus proving that Jesus isn't the great God.

1 Thessalonians 4​

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. ​

​

Titus 2​

13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; ​

Jesus doesn't return under his own power, similar to how Acts says Jesus didn't go to heaven under his own power. This is why Jesus is brought back the same way he was taken:

Acts 1​

11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”​

nope read again as this single verse refutes your false claims.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance(epiphenia) of His coming(parousia);

Above we see both words are combined to the singular event- the 2nd Coming of Christ.


Peter refers to Christ as our God and Saviour- Lord and Saviour just the same as Paul in Titus 2:13 and it’s the same Greek construction in Titus 2:13 as it is in 2 Peter 1:1and 1:11.



And the One who is coming / appearing in the NT is always the Son and NEVER the Father


epiphanea

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

1 Timothy 6:14
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 1:10
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus,

2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:8
8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Titus 2:13
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Titus 2:13
Of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ ‎tou ‎‎megalou ‎‎Theou ‎‎kai ‎‎sooteeros ‎‎Ieesou ‎‎Christou‎. This is the necessary meaning of the one article with ‎Theou ‎and ‎sooteeros ‎just as in 2 Peter 1:1,11. See Robertson, Grammar, p. 786. Westcott and Hort read ‎Christou ‎‎Ieesou‎.


Parousia

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:37
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Matthew 24:39
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 2:19
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:13
13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

James 5:7
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.

James 5:8
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

2 Peter 1:16
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Peter 3:4
4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 John 2:28-29
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

And 2 Thessalonians 2:8 links both His appearing / coming as the same event of Christ not the Father. Both epiphenea and parousia together below in the same verse.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

1 Peter 1:7
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


Conclusion : This is where Unitarians really fail badly because they are so consumed with disproving the Deity of Christ that they fail with a well rounded theology which would benefit them greatly . You see how all biblical doctrines fit together seamlessly and especially in this case prove beyond all doubt that the one and only Person Paul was referring to in Titus 2:13 as God was Jesus and not the Father for He is never once in Scripture referred to as the One who is Coming/ Appearing .

hope this helps !!!

 

[Peterlag]

The doctrine of the Trinity is foundational to the Christian faith. It is crucial for properly understanding what God is like, how He relates to us, and how we should relate to Him.

The Bible speaks of the Father as God Phil. 1:2

Jesus as God Titus 2:13

Holy Spirit as God Acts 5:3-4.

The Bible also indicates that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. For example, since the Father sent the Son into the world John 3:16 So He cannot be the same person as the Son.

Likewise, after the Son returned to the Father John 16:10

The Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit into the world John 14:26 and Acts 2:33

So we see three persons in one God.

On this Acts 2:33 you use number 3. God mentioned once being referred to by 2 different ways. God is called God and God is called The Holy Spirit. I am called Peter and I'm called man. I'm not two different creatures.

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

 

[mikesw]

God being repeatedly called a He, Him, His, I, etc means they were doing their best to describe God as one person. If they wanted to suggest anything else, their next best option would be to say They or Them, which is not something they ever did. The language gives a glimpse into the beliefs and minds of the people who wrote the manuscripts we call the Bible. They perceived that God is just one person. They referred to Him as an individual. They are authoritative.

We actually have great, common sense, reasons why we believe what we do about God.

you have some reasons to do so. and some of those are halfway-legit if you have only looked briefly at OT passages and never anything else. The effect is that your interpretation is far from authoritative. Indeed there is only one true god among those whom people thought were a god. So that definitely is true. However, we have shown that three are Yahweh. So the Trinity is evident to those who know God.

 

[Peterlag]

The Satanic roots of Babylon inspired the Trinitarian falsehood and misrepresentation of WHO God the Father is.
This is an undeniable realization that has been perpetrated upon false Trinitarian Christianity.
It's time for the Satanic Wizard of Oz, who has deceived and misled too many for too long to be exposed.
It's time for the proverbial Dorothy's like myself and many others to PULL the curtain back and reveal this deceptive hoax.
This is NO coincidence!
It was planned and devised by the workers of Satan; who orchestrated this among the spiritually blinded religious leaders who came up with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They insisted these Triune God's were really only one God.

 

[Blessed]

The Satanic roots of Babylon inspired the Trinitarian falsehood and misrepresentation of WHO God the Father is.
This is an undeniable realization that has been perpetrated upon false Trinitarian Christianity.
It's time for the Satanic Wizard of Oz, who has deceived and misled too many for too long to be exposed.
It's time for the proverbial Dorothy's like myself and many others to PULL the curtain back and reveal this deceptive hoax.
This is NO coincidence!
It was planned and devised by the workers of Satan; who orchestrated this among the spiritually blinded religious leaders who came up with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They insisted these Triune God's were really only one God.

Not a thing to do with Christianity.

 

[Apain]

Not a thing to do with Christianity.

Seriously, just made up malarky trying to make the Holy Trinity look bad.

 

[civic]

you have some reasons to do so. and some of those are halfway-legit if you have only looked briefly at OT passages and never anything else. The effect is that your interpretation is far from authoritative. Indeed there is only one true god among those whom people thought were a god. So that definitely is true. However, we have shown that three are Yahweh. So the Trinity is evident to those who know God.

and to those the Lord has revealed.

 

[Peterlag]

Not a thing to do with Christianity.

I never cared for the Catholic doctrine or the philosophy of its protestant sisters.

There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

 

[Runningman]

wrong as I already disproved your fallacious argument and that the terrible KJV translation is a failure as all the other reliable translations show its one person, not 2 persons. Besides that fact we know only the Son is the One who VISIBLY APPEARS/ is COMING, since no man has ever seen the Father who dwells in unapproachable light.

the scriptures rebuke your false doctrine as I have succinctly and thoroughly demonstrated with Scripture in my previous post. you are up a creek without a paddle. you have also ignored all the biblical evidence that exposes your erroneous view and replaced it with your biased view.

next fallacy.

hope this helps !!!

Can you explain why this is wrong instead of just claiming it is?

Jesus doesn't know when he returns according to Matthew 24:36,37 so it would be nonsense to say that God doesn't know when He returns, but your argument necessitates this is what your conclusion would be.

Next, God and Jesus appear distinctly, not as the same person, but as one bringing the other.

Θεὸς (Theos) ἄξει (axei) σὺν (syn) αὐτῷ (autō) - "God will bring with Jesus..." is written in such a way as to be a verb in the active voice, performing an action on Jesus being the subject and possessive. In other words, Jesus will receive an action from God that he will not perform himself.

1 Thessalonians 4
14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

Pivoting back to Titus 2:13, now fully understanding that Jesus is not the Great God who is appearing, but rather the Great God and our Savior Jesus are two distinct persons.

Also drop your granville-sharp "rule" arguments. Those are not rules in English grammar nor are they taught to anyone in school. Nor were they rules in Greek grammar. The granville-sharp "rule" was not invented until the late 19th century and early Bibles before that period didn't contain it. Hence, the KJV clearly and grammatically states Jesus and God aren't the same person in the Greek of Titus 2:13.

 

[civic]

Can you explain why this is wrong instead of just claiming it is?

Jesus doesn't know when he returns according to Matthew 24:36,37 so it would be nonsense to say that God doesn't know when He returns, but your argument necessitates this is what your conclusion would be.

Next, God and Jesus appear distinctly, not as the same person, but as one bringing the other.

Θεὸς (Theos) ἄξει (axei) σὺν (syn) αὐτῷ (autō) - "God will bring with Jesus..." is written in such a way as to be a verb in the active voice, performing an action on Jesus being the subject and possessive. In other words, Jesus will receive an action from God that he will not perform himself.

1 Thessalonians 4
14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

The Father is not the one returning at the 2nd Coming its the Son as I have demonstrated with over 2 dozen passages. The Father dwells in unapproachable light, has never been seen, is invisible etc...... The 2nd Coming is a VISIBLE return of the Son coming in Glory, not the Father.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father


1 Timothy 6:13-16
I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time — God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1 Timothy 6:15-16
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen

And you argument about the day of the return is nonsense since Jesus is human and voluntarily limited His use of His divine attributes in submission to do the Father will in accomplishing salvation.

And just because Jesus at times does not use His divine attributes does not make Him not God just the same as God restraining Himself from using His attributes of wrath, sovereignty, control, judgment etc......

next fallacy.......

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Gods word states in many places that YHWH is plural. These Three are One. Baptism is done also as the Three who are One- in the NAME (singular ) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The same at Sons baptism- we see the Three who are One- the same in Creation- Let Us make man in OUR ( plural ) image after OUR (plural ) likeness. God made adam/eve the TWO ( Plural ) who are One (singular ) flesh- The Unity in marriage reflects the same Unity in our Plural God. There are many other passages that reflect God is plural. The Shema in 1 Corinthians 8:6 reflect both the Father/Son (plural) who are the Co-Creators in that passage- the One God/Lord of the scriptures. The Shema reflects the One God/Lord as Plural.

conclusion: the Trinity is true even though that specific word is not found in the bible but the concept goes from Genesis 1 through Revelation 22. Tri is 3 and Unity is One- Tri-Unity- Trinity. The Plural God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit

hope this helps !!!

More evidence for the readers on the forum. YHWH's identity.


Isaiah 43: 11- Yahweh said that He is our only Savior- Even I Am Yahweh and there is no other Savior besides Me. This verse is very clear as to its meaning. We see that Yahweh is the Name God bestowed on Jesus and it is Yahweh which is the Name that is above every name and it is Yahweh to which every knee will bow. There is no mistaking that Paul declares in his epistles that Jesus is the Yahweh of the Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus is our Lord Yahweh in the New Testament as well as our Savior. These were the specific names that were Gods alone in the Old Testament. Yahweh is the name given by God for Himself. In the OT YHWH and was considered so holy that a devout Jew would not pronounce it. God revealed His name to Moses in Exodus 3:14 When God said, "I Am Who I AM." YHWH is only used to refer to the one true God. His name and glory were not to be given to another. Isaiah wrote:” Thus says the Lord (YHWH)I Am the First and I Am the Last and beside me there is no God. "I Am (YHWH) that is My name; and My Glory I will not give to another, neither My praise to graven images. (Isaiah 42:8) That is why the Jews picked up stones and accused Jesus of blasphemy when He claimed to be YHWH. Jesus claimed to be the judge of all men (Matt 25:31, John 5:27) Joel quotes Yahweh as saying, "For there I will sit to judge all surrounding nations" (Joel 3:12).Jesus prayed, "Father, glorify Me with Thy own self with the Glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5) But here we read that YHWH said, "I will not give My Glory to another" (Isaiah 42:8). But we see in Scripture that God/Yahweh offers all His Glory to Jesus. Christ says, "I Am the first and the last" (Rev 1:17) the exact words used by YHWH in Isaiah 42:28. In John 8:58 where Jesus says:” Before Abraham was born, I Am." Jesus was either "guilty" as the Jews charged Him of blasphemy, or He is who He claimed to be(YHWH). He clearly claimed to be God. If He is only a good teacher or prophet then He would be a liar as the late CS Lewis once said on par with a poached egg, because He claimed equality with God and no created being has equality with God. The Jews knew and understood His meaning and picked up stones to kill Him for blaspheming. (John 8:58, 10:31-33). We can clearly see the identity of the Almighty God of scripture and He is none other than Jesus who is YHWH(Almighty God) in the flesh. He appeared to men in the OT as the angel(messenger) of the Lord and now is permanently both YHWH and man. He is forever the Godman in the flesh. YHWH has come in the flesh and those who deny this scripture declares are the spirit of antichrist(1 John 4:1-4, 2 John 7).


John 1:18 says, "No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God/Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared of explained Him." And then there is John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath sen the Father." The point being made is the fact that the Son of God is the visible manifestation of God (Hebrews 1:3) and the kicker verse if you wil is John 5:37, "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. YOU HAVE NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS FORM." So Jesus here out His own mouth says you have neither heard the Fathers voice nor seen His form."

Jesus is the Lord 9 YHWH ) in Joel, Isaiah and Jeremiah. No ambiguity

Joel 2:27-32
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the LORD has said,
Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Paul quotes Joel below and says it is Jesus who is the Lord(YHWH) whom all will call upon


Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of C all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."


Isaiah 45:21-24
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 " Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 "I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.'


Now Paul quotes Isaiah about YHWH and declares it is Jesus(YHWH) whom all will bow before,

Philippians 2:9-11
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Isaiah 6:1-5
In the year of King, Uzziah's death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called out to another and said,
"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,,
The whole earth is full of His glory."
4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5 Then I said,
5"Woe is me, for I am ruined!,
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;,
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."

Below John says Isaiah saw His ( Jesus the Son's ) glory. This was the only time the prophet Isaiah saw the Lord ( YHWH )

John 12:41
These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him


Jeremiah 17:10 the Lord says
"I the LORD search the heart, I test the mind. Even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings"

In Revelation 2:23 Jesus says
"I am He who searches the minds and hearts and I will give to each one of you according to your works"

So if Jesus is not God ( YHWH ) why would he claim to do something in Revelation that Yahweh claimed in Jeremiah?

So is it Yahweh or Jesus who searches hearts and minds?

The only name that can possibly be above all names is the name of YHWH. This means that Jesus shares the personal name and authority of YHWH, making Him God Himself as no one can be equal to God except God alone.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

The Father is not the one returning at the 2nd Coming its the Son as I have demonstrated with over 2 dozen passages. The Father dwells in unapproachable light, has never been seen, is invisible etc...... The 2nd Coming is a VISIBLE return of the Son coming in Glory, not the Father.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father


1 Timothy 6:13-16
I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time — God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1 Timothy 6:15-16
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen

And you argument about the day of the return is nonsense since Jesus is human and voluntarily limited His use of His divine attributes in submission to do the Father will in accomplishing salvation.

And just because Jesus at times does not use His divine attributes does not make Him not God just the same as God restraining Himself from using His attributes of wrath, sovereignty, control, judgment etc......

next fallacy.......

hope this helps !!!

Jesus doesn't bring about his own appearing because he doesn't know when he appears.

​

Matthew 24​

36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.​

You also pointed out that no one has seen or can see, thus you can provided a strong case that proves this isn't Jesus it's talking about. Why? Because when God brings back Jesus, every eye will see Jesus.

Revelation 1​

7Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.​

​

1 Thess. 4​

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.​

So we know that Jesus isn't the invisible God that Paul was talking about. Jesus is entirely visible when he comes back, but God isn't. This also proves that Jesus isn't the Only Ruler and King of kings and Lord of lords, nor was immortal because he died. Why? Compared to God, Jesus is a prince.

Acts 3​

15and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.​

​

Acts 5​

31Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.​

Next fallacy. I hope that helps!!!!

 

[Runningman]

More evidence for the readers on the forum. YHWH's identity.


Isaiah 43: 11- Yahweh said that He is our only Savior- Even I Am Yahweh and there is no other Savior besides Me. This verse is very clear as to its meaning. We see that Yahweh is the Name God bestowed on Jesus and it is Yahweh which is the Name that is above every name and it is Yahweh to which every knee will bow. There is no mistaking that Paul declares in his epistles that Jesus is the Yahweh of the Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus is our Lord Yahweh in the New Testament as well as our Savior. These were the specific names that were Gods alone in the Old Testament. Yahweh is the name given by God for Himself. In the OT YHWH and was considered so holy that a devout Jew would not pronounce it. God revealed His name to Moses in Exodus 3:14 When God said, "I Am Who I AM." YHWH is only used to refer to the one true God. His name and glory were not to be given to another. Isaiah wrote:” Thus says the Lord (YHWH)I Am the First and I Am the Last and beside me there is no God. "I Am (YHWH) that is My name; and My Glory I will not give to another, neither My praise to graven images. (Isaiah 42:8) That is why the Jews picked up stones and accused Jesus of blasphemy when He claimed to be YHWH. Jesus claimed to be the judge of all men (Matt 25:31, John 5:27) Joel quotes Yahweh as saying, "For there I will sit to judge all surrounding nations" (Joel 3:12).Jesus prayed, "Father, glorify Me with Thy own self with the Glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5) But here we read that YHWH said, "I will not give My Glory to another" (Isaiah 42:8). But we see in Scripture that God/Yahweh offers all His Glory to Jesus. Christ says, "I Am the first and the last" (Rev 1:17) the exact words used by YHWH in Isaiah 42:28. In John 8:58 where Jesus says:” Before Abraham was born, I Am." Jesus was either "guilty" as the Jews charged Him of blasphemy, or He is who He claimed to be(YHWH). He clearly claimed to be God. If He is only a good teacher or prophet then He would be a liar as the late CS Lewis once said on par with a poached egg, because He claimed equality with God and no created being has equality with God. The Jews knew and understood His meaning and picked up stones to kill Him for blaspheming. (John 8:58, 10:31-33). We can clearly see the identity of the Almighty God of scripture and He is none other than Jesus who is YHWH(Almighty God) in the flesh. He appeared to men in the OT as the angel(messenger) of the Lord and now is permanently both YHWH and man. He is forever the Godman in the flesh. YHWH has come in the flesh and those who deny this scripture declares are the spirit of antichrist(1 John 4:1-4, 2 John 7).


John 1:18 says, "No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God/Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared of explained Him." And then there is John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath sen the Father." The point being made is the fact that the Son of God is the visible manifestation of God (Hebrews 1:3) and the kicker verse if you wil is John 5:37, "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. YOU HAVE NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS FORM." So Jesus here out His own mouth says you have neither heard the Fathers voice nor seen His form."

Jesus is the Lord 9 YHWH ) in Joel, Isaiah and Jeremiah. No ambiguity

Joel 2:27-32
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the LORD has said,
Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Paul quotes Joel below and says it is Jesus who is the Lord(YHWH) whom all will call upon


Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of C all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."


Isaiah 45:21-24
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 " Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 "I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.'


Now Paul quotes Isaiah about YHWH and declares it is Jesus(YHWH) whom all will bow before,

Philippians 2:9-11
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Isaiah 6:1-5
In the year of King, Uzziah's death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called out to another and said,
"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,,
The whole earth is full of His glory."
4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5 Then I said,
5"Woe is me, for I am ruined!,
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;,
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."

Below John says Isaiah saw His ( Jesus the Son's ) glory. This was the only time the prophet Isaiah saw the Lord ( YHWH )

John 12:41
These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him


Jeremiah 17:10 the Lord says
"I the LORD search the heart, I test the mind. Even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings"

In Revelation 2:23 Jesus says
"I am He who searches the minds and hearts and I will give to each one of you according to your works"

So if Jesus is not God ( YHWH ) why would he claim to do something in Revelation that Yahweh claimed in Jeremiah?

So is it Yahweh or Jesus who searches hearts and minds?

The only name that can possibly be above all names is the name of YHWH. This means that Jesus shares the personal name and authority of YHWH, making Him God Himself as no one can be equal to God except God alone.

hope this helps !!!

You might want to take a few steps back. Your premise about Jesus being YHWH just got wrecked by Scripture in my previous post.

 

[civic]

You might want to take a few steps back. Your premise about Jesus being YHWH just got wrecked by Scripture in my previous post.

Projecting since the uni doctrine was entirely dismantled

 

[Runningman]

Projecting since the uni doctrine was entirely dismantled

You've done no such thing nor have even came close. I have just completely countered your argument.

 

[civic]

You've done no such thing nor have even came close. I have just completely countered your argument.

still equivocating/projecting

 

[dwight92070]

The Satanic roots of Babylon inspired the Trinitarian falsehood and misrepresentation of WHO God the Father is.
This is an undeniable realization that has been perpetrated upon false Trinitarian Christianity.
It's time for the Satanic Wizard of Oz, who has deceived and misled too many for too long to be exposed.
It's time for the proverbial Dorothy's like myself and many others to PULL the curtain back and reveal this deceptive hoax.
This is NO coincidence!
It was planned and devised by the workers of Satan; who orchestrated this among the spiritually blinded religious leaders who came up with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They insisted these Triune God's were really only one God.

View attachment 2522

Yeah right, tell me another one.