The Things Jesus Did Not Do

Good morning, Dwight

Everybody can, should and will bow down to Christ.... everybody.... except God.
That is the difference between honoring somebody who God has glorified, and considering that somebody God.

The exalted Christ continues to be in a category different than God.
That's why Paul, talking about Christ, explains:

Christ will rule until he puts all his enemies under his power, and the last enemy he destroys will be death. When the Scriptures say he will put everything under his power, they don't include God. It was God who put everything under the power of Christ. After everything is under the power of God's Son, he will put himself under the power of God, who put everything under his Son's power. Then God will mean everything to everyone. (1 Cor 15:25-28, CEV)​

Regarding Revelation 5, my friend, I am not avoiding the chapter. But the Book of Revelation is a whole book, where the Father is presented explicitly as the God of Jesus four times: first in 1:6, and then a second, third and fourth time by Christ Himself in 3:12.


NOBODY should bow down and worship Christ, IF HE IS NOT GOD! To do so would be idolatry, if He is not God. I'm amazed that you can't see that.

The devil told Jesus, "All these things I will give You, if you fall down and worship me."
"Then Jesus said to him, 'Go , Satan! For it is written, YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.' "

By the way, if you're not avoiding Revelation 5, then why are you not willing to discuss it? Again, you didn't in this post. Yes, the Father IS the God of Jesus. But the Father also addresses Jesus as God and Lord in Hebrews 1:8-9 and He commands ALL the angels to WORSHIP Jesus in verse 6. If the Father calls Jesus both Lord and God, don't you think He wants us to do the same, just like Jesus had no issue at all with Thomas calling Him, "My Lord and my God!"?
 
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It is also sheer folly to think that Jesus would not have corrected Him, if Thomas was mistaken in calling Him "my God!" However Jesus did give him a gentle rebuke:

"Jesus said to him, 'Because you have seen Me, have you believed? (What did Thomas believe? That Jesus was his Lord AND HIS GOD.) Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed (Believed what? That Jesus was in fact, Thomas' Lord AND HIS GOD)" (Among others at that time, that would also be us today who believe that Jesus is not only our Lord but also our God.)
Indeed, what Jesus wanted Thomas to believe is that He was alive, and that the other ten and the women were not lying.
This is the reason Jesus manifested Himself to Thomas.

Although Thomas the Twin was one of the twelve disciples, he wasn't with the others when Jesus appeared to them. So they told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But Thomas said, “First, I must see the nail scars in his hands and touch them with my finger. I must put my hand where the spear went into his side. I won't believe unless I do this!”
So, Jesus deity was not the topic here, but the reality of Jesus Alive, and the trust Thomas should exercise in his companions.

I understand your position, Dwight. But if the evangelist had wanted to present Thomas as declaring Jesus his God, then
  • Jesus would have been wrong regarding Who He thought Thomas worshiped.. Jesus had declared just few days before that his disciples had as God the same Person Jesus had as God, namely, their common Father. Didn't Jesus know his disciples well, after all?
  • Thomas would have disregarded what the woman told him Jesus had commanded. Jesus had commanded the woman to tell the disciples that He had to go to his God and Father, who was the same God and Father of them.
  • Thomas would have defied Peter's doctrine and leadership. After Pentecost, disciples preached that the God of their Ancestors (YHWH, the God of Israel they worshiped) had raised Jesus, who is declared God's "Servant".
  • Thomas would have been at odds with subsequent apostolic letters. Over and over, God and Jesus are treated as separate entities within the same salutation or sentence. In several occasions, God is referred to specifically as "The Father", while Jesus is called specifically "Lord".
 
Indeed, what Jesus wanted Thomas to believe is that He was alive, and that the other ten and the women were not lying.
This is the reason Jesus manifested Himself to Thomas.

Although Thomas the Twin was one of the twelve disciples, he wasn't with the others when Jesus appeared to them. So they told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But Thomas said, “First, I must see the nail scars in his hands and touch them with my finger. I must put my hand where the spear went into his side. I won't believe unless I do this!”
So, Jesus deity was not the topic here, but the reality of Jesus Alive, and the trust Thomas should exercise in his companions.

I understand your position, Dwight. But if the evangelist had wanted to present Thomas as declaring Jesus his God, then
  • Jesus would have been wrong regarding Who He thought Thomas worshiped.. Jesus had declared just few days before that his disciples had as God the same Person Jesus had as God, namely, their common Father. Didn't Jesus know his disciples well, after all?
  • Thomas would have disregarded what the woman told him Jesus had commanded. Jesus had commanded the woman to tell the disciples that He had to go to his God and Father, who was the same God and Father of them.
  • Thomas would have defied Peter's doctrine and leadership. After Pentecost, disciples preached that the God of their Ancestors (YHWH, the God of Israel they worshiped) had raised Jesus, who is declared God's "Servant".
  • Thomas would have been at odds with subsequent apostolic letters. Over and over, God and Jesus are treated as separate entities within the same salutation or sentence. In several occasions, God is referred to specifically as "The Father", while Jesus is called specifically "Lord".
What we see here from Paul is that he equates Jesus as the source of grace and peace with the Father. Paul clearly identifies Jesus as equal with the Father and expresses His Deity with these invocations in his epistles. Not only is this a prayer from Paul but an act of worship in Paul's letters. Paul is giving Jesus the identical same honor to Jesus as he does to the Father. After all Jesus in His very own words commanded others to honor Him as you do the Father(John 5:23) Jesus thought equality with God was not something He needed to grasp for it was inherent within His nature.(Phil 2,Col 1,John 1, Heb 1, 1 John 1 etc.....) He was God in the flesh(John 1:1,14) He said he who has seen Me has seen the Father and I and the Father are one. Why would you ask to show you the Father ? You are looking at God!!!!!!! Jesus also said before Abraham was born " I Am" ( the self existing One, with no beginning). The case for the deity of Christ is bullet proof in scripture.

Rom 1:7
7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

1 Cor 1:3
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 1:2
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:3-4
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 1:1-2
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Phil 1:2
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 1:1-2
To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philem 3
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
NOBODY should bow down and worship Christ, IF HE IS NOT GOD! To do so would be idolatry, if He is not God. I'm amazed that you can't see that.
You wouldn't be amazed if you understood that idolatry means to disobey God on the basis of obeying another god.
Whoever loves and obeys Jesus loves and obeys God.
If Jesus taught something opposite to God's will, then we would have a problem deciding who to follow. But that's not the case.

I don't know if you, in your daily life, kneel down to Jesus. But if you do it, I want to understand you do it for the glory of His Father.
In contrast with Jehovah Witnesses, I do believe you worship the Only and True God through Jesus Christ. I have absolutely no issues with that.
I praise you for that.



The devil told Jesus, "All these things I will give You, if you fall down and worship me."
"Then Jesus said to him, 'Go , Satan! For it is written, YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.' "
Yes, Jesus said that.
And Jesus was quoting the Torah. Jesus was telling Satan that we should worship YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who is not Jesus.
So, by quoting this verse, you have a chance to see that Jesus want us to worship his Father, the Only and True God.
 
A Doxology is reserved for God. Below we see the Triune God mentioned in the Doxologies and opening of some of the N.T. letters. The NT declares that honor and glory are due to God alone. Some doxologies only mention Christ which speaks volumes about what the Apostles thought about Him and His Glory as God. The clear fact is Jesus receives the identical glory that the Father receives. These passages also make it abundantly clear of Christ’s pre existence and glory prior to creation(see John 17:5 below). He is therefore eternal just as the Father is eternal. Jesus received the Worship and Glory while on the earth and in Revelation receives the same honor,glory,praise and worship the Father receives in heaven. Jesus must be God Incarnate !


2 Tim 4:18
18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Phil 4:20
20 Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Gal 1:3-5
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be the glory forevermore. Amen.



Eph 3:16-21

I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge — that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.



Rom 9:5

Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.



Rom 16:25-27

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.



2 Cor 13:14

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.





1 Thess 5:19-28

Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.

23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

25 Brothers, pray for us. 26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. 27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers.

28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.





2 Tim 4:22


The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.



Philem 25

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.



Heb 13:20-21

May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.



Jude 24-25


24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.



1 Peter 5:14

Peace to all of you who are in Christ.





2 Peter 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:





2 Peter 3:18

But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.





1 John 5:20-21

We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

21 Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.



Rev 5:11-14
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,

"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."

13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,

"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.





Rev 22:17-21

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

hope this helps !!!



 
Not only is this a prayer from Paul but an act of worship in Paul's letters. Paul is giving Jesus the identical same honor to Jesus as he does to the Father.
Not at all, civic.
In all those verses you've quoted Paul mentions two separate Persons: The Father and Jesus Christ... and Paul gives the title "God" to only one of them. Which of the two?
I think the implication should be obvious.
 
Not at all, civic.
In all those verses you've quoted Paul mentions two separate Persons: The Father and Jesus Christ... and Paul gives the title "God" to only one of them. Which of the two?
I think the implication should be obvious.
And God is Plural in Persons not singular. So there is no contradictions in Trinitarianism.

And as an FYI there are 3 major world religions all recognized by all reliable and unbiased sources as Monotheistic- Judaism, Islam and Christianity who all teach there is One God.

hope this helps !!!
 
Indeed, what Jesus wanted Thomas to believe is that He was alive, and that the other ten and the women were not lying.
This is the reason Jesus manifested Himself to Thomas.

Although Thomas the Twin was one of the twelve disciples, he wasn't with the others when Jesus appeared to them. So they told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But Thomas said, “First, I must see the nail scars in his hands and touch them with my finger. I must put my hand where the spear went into his side. I won't believe unless I do this!”
So, Jesus deity was not the topic here, but the reality of Jesus Alive, and the trust Thomas should exercise in his companions.

I understand your position, Dwight. But if the evangelist had wanted to present Thomas as declaring Jesus his God, then
  • Jesus would have been wrong regarding Who He thought Thomas worshiped.. Jesus had declared just few days before that his disciples had as God the same Person Jesus had as God, namely, their common Father. Didn't Jesus know his disciples well, after all?
  • Thomas would have disregarded what the woman told him Jesus had commanded. Jesus had commanded the woman to tell the disciples that He had to go to his God and Father, who was the same God and Father of them.
  • Thomas would have defied Peter's doctrine and leadership. After Pentecost, disciples preached that the God of their Ancestors (YHWH, the God of Israel they worshiped) had raised Jesus, who is declared God's "Servant".
  • Thomas would have been at odds with subsequent apostolic letters. Over and over, God and Jesus are treated as separate entities within the same salutation or sentence. In several occasions, God is referred to specifically as "The Father", while Jesus is called specifically "Lord".

Of course they're separate entities, yet they are each also God. That's the Trinity. Distinct, yet at the same time, equal.

You said: "In several occasions, God is referred to specifically as "The Father", while Jesus is called specifically "Lord"."

So what's the point? How many times is God called "Lord"? Tons! What about Jesus, is He ever called "Father" or "God"? Yes, in Isaiah 9:6 "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; ... and His name will be called ... Mighty God, Eternal Father ..."
 
Of course they're separate entities, yet they are each also God. That's the Trinity. Distinct, yet at the same time, equal.

You said: "In several occasions, God is referred to specifically as "The Father", while Jesus is called specifically "Lord"."

So what's the point? How many times is God called "Lord"? Tons! What about Jesus, is He ever called "Father" or "God"? Yes, in Isaiah 9:6 "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; ... and His name will be called ... Mighty God, Eternal Father ..."
Perhaps I wasn't clear in my statement, Dwight and @civic
There are manty instances in the New Testament which the The Father and Jesus Christ are presented as two different persons within the same sentence.
So, this would be an excellent opportunity to give both Persons the title "God"... but this does not happen. Over and over and over, it is the Father (and not Jesus) who receives the title "God". How do you explain this?
 
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And God is Plural in Persons not singular. So there is no contradictions in Trinitarianism.
Well, only One of those Persons is called by Jesus "The Only and True God"... while identifying himself as someone sent by God.

You believe that God sent Christ to the world as per John 3:16 and 8:42, Galatians 4.4 among others
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
"I came from God and proceeded into the world. I did not come of My own authority, but He sent Me."
"But when the fullness of time came, God sent forth His Son"

Well, Jesus clarifies Who is that God who sent him. He does it 17 times in the same gospel. Seventeen times. Such God is a person with a specific name: The Father. So, if the Father is One Single Person, then God, who is the one who sent Jesus, is One Single Person.

  1. John 5:23 that all men should honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
  2. John 5:30 I can do nothing of Myself. As I hear, I judge. My judgment is just, because I seek not My own will, but the will of the Father who sent Me.
  3. John 5:36 “I have greater testimony than that of John. The works which the Father has given Me to finish, the very works that I do, bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
  4. John 5:37 The Father Himself, who has sent Me, has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
  5. John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who has sent Me, that of all whom He has given Me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
  6. John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
  7. John 6:57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on Me also will live because of Me.
  8. John 8:16 Yet if I do judge, My judgment is true. For I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
  9. John 8:18 I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father that sent Me bears witness of Me.”
  10. John 8:29 He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.”
  11. John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and proceeded into the world. I did not come of My own authority, but He sent Me.
  12. John 10:36 do you say of Him, whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
  13. John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority, but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
  14. John 14:24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words. The word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
  15. John 17:21 that they may all be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You. May they also be one in Us, that the world may believe that You have sent Me.
  16. John 17:25 “O righteous Father, the world has not known You, but I have known You, and these have known that You sent Me.
  17. John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As My Father has sent Me, even so I send you.”
 
Well, only One of those Persons is called by Jesus "The Only and True God"... while identifying himself as someone sent by God.

You believe that God sent Christ to the world as per John 3:16 and 8:42, Galatians 4.4 among others
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
"I came from God and proceeded into the world. I did not come of My own authority, but He sent Me."
"But when the fullness of time came, God sent forth His Son"

Well, Jesus clarifies Who is that God who sent him. He does it 17 times in the same gospel. Seventeen times. Such God is a person with a specific name: The Father. So, if the Father is One Single Person, then God, who is the one who sent Jesus, is One Single Person.

  1. John 5:23 that all men should honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
  2. John 5:30 I can do nothing of Myself. As I hear, I judge. My judgment is just, because I seek not My own will, but the will of the Father who sent Me.
  3. John 5:36 “I have greater testimony than that of John. The works which the Father has given Me to finish, the very works that I do, bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
  4. John 5:37 The Father Himself, who has sent Me, has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
  5. John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who has sent Me, that of all whom He has given Me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
  6. John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
  7. John 6:57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on Me also will live because of Me.
  8. John 8:16 Yet if I do judge, My judgment is true. For I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
  9. John 8:18 I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father that sent Me bears witness of Me.”
  10. John 8:29 He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.”
  11. John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and proceeded into the world. I did not come of My own authority, but He sent Me.
  12. John 10:36 do you say of Him, whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
  13. John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority, but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
  14. John 14:24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words. The word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
  15. John 17:21 that they may all be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You. May they also be one in Us, that the world may believe that You have sent Me.
  16. John 17:25 “O righteous Father, the world has not known You, but I have known You, and these have known that You sent Me.
  17. John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As My Father has sent Me, even so I send you.”
Thanks for those references which will prove my point :)

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.

John 1:15
15
John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.


John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.


John 17:5

And now, Father, glorify Me(your Son in verse 2) in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God.

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

Below we read it was the Son who already existed as the Son which the Father sent into the world.

John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

1 Cor 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.


Gal 4:4
But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

1 John 4:14
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

In 1 John 3:8 we see that the Son of Gods appearance or manifestation was for this very purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. The verb φανερόω means to make manifest, appeared, to make visible or to bring to light something that was previously hidden. This clearly means that Jesus had already existed as the Son of God and He was made manifest or visible to us.

Now we also know from Johns writings that those who deny Jesus came in the flesh are the spirit of antichrist. Those who deny God became flesh and dwelt among us are deceivers. The Incarnation was permanent as we read in 2 John 7- Jesus has come in the flesh. A past action with present results.

Col 1:13-18
For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Heb 1:2-3
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

Heb 1:8
But of the Son He says,

"Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,

Heb 5:7-8
In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

The question is who or what was He before the days of His flesh? It is obvious that He pre existed before His birth(days of His flesh) as the Son.

The Father sent the Son into this world and we know this as the Incarnation. Meaning God became flesh( a man). Since the Son is God, the 2nd Person of the Trinity scripture calls the Son- God manifest in the flesh.


hope this helps !!!
 
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

1 John 5:20-21
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Regarding these two verses, I want to bring your attention to the fact that
  • The words "God" and "Jesus" are presented within the same verse 209 times in the New Testament (Modern English Version) while the words "God" and "Christ" are presented within the same verse 204 times.
  • In all of them they are presented as different persons (eg God doing something towards Christ)... and in none of them, except the verses above quoted by our friend @civic, Jesus is called God.

This means that in 99% of verses that refer to God and to Jesus in the same verse, Jesus is NOT identified as God while in 1% Jesus is identified as God.

Notably, this 1% does not appear in any of the gospels, nor Pauline letters, nor Acts of the Apostles.
One verse appears in Second Peter, an epistle suspicious to early Christians who hardly came into the canon, and another in 1 John, who we already know was manipulated in the same chapter to include the doctrine of Trinity in 5:7-8.

So, my friends, please think, using Occham's razor again: What explanation is more plausible?
  1. The 99% verses missed a great opportunity to convey such a crucial information, or were otherwise manipulated or copied with errors.
  2. The 1% represents an intentional manipulation or perhaps an unintentional error.
 
Thanks for those references which will prove my point :)

Hi:

I don't understand how the 20 references I posted will prove your point... or what's the point you want to prove.

You admit that the Bible teaches that God sent Jesus.
You admit that the Bible teaches that the Father sent Jesus.
You admit that the Bible presents The Father as a single Person, a Person who is not Jesus.
You admit (I guess) that the Bible does not teach that Jesus sent Himself, nor that the Holy Spirit sent Jesus. Am I right?

So, there is one single Person (The Father) who sent Jesus... and this single Person is called "God" in the Bible. Can we agree on this?
 
To validate the claim that Thomas was declaring Jesus his God...

  • Jesus would have been wrong regarding Who He thought Thomas worshiped.. Jesus had declared just few days before that his disciples had as God the same Person Jesus had as God, namely, their common Father. Didn't Jesus know his disciples well, after all?


This doesn't at all detract from the fact that Jesus is referred to as "my God" in John 20:28.

  • Thomas would have disregarded what the woman told him Jesus had commanded. Jesus had commanded the woman to tell the disciples that He had to go to his God and Father, who was the same God and Father of them.

See above.

  • Thomas would have defied Peter's doctrine and leadership. After Pentecost, disciples preached that the God of their Ancestors (YHWH, the God of Israel they worshiped) had raised Jesus, who is declared God's "Servant".

Keep going...

Acts 3:14
But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you.


"The Righteous One" (in reference to Jesus) is also used in Acts 7.

Acts 7:52
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? And they have slain those who previously announced the coming of the Righteous One; whose betrayers and murderers you have now become.

The Righteous One, being the Lord, links with the fact that the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer (which proves He is God).
Acts 7:59-60
(59) And they stoned Stephen as he called out saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
(60) And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not hold this sin against them!


  • Thomas would have been at odds with subsequent apostolic letters. Over and over, God and Jesus are treated as separate entities within the same salutation or sentence. In several occasions, God is referred to specifically as "The Father", while Jesus is called specifically "Lord".


See my first comment.
 
It's not actually saying that the Father received power from a supposed higher being, because there is no higher being. That verse is an expression of praise towards the Father from beings who are inferior to Him, since He created them. The four living creatures and the 24 elders are worshiping Him by acknowledging that it is only right and just that He receives all glory and honor and power. Why? Because He created all things and by His will they exist. God has received nothing from anyone, because He created all things to begin with.
Error, no one can give POWER in worship. now read the scripture, Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
so, please school us on how God is to receive "POWER" from us? and the term POWER here is
G1411 δύναμις dunamis (d̮ï '-na-mis) n.
1. force.
2. (specially) miraculous power.
3. (usually by implication) a miracle itself.
{literally or figuratively}
[from G1410]
KJV: ability, abundance, meaning, might(-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle(-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work
Root(s): G1410

so please tell us how God receive "POWER" when he has it all?

see, that want fly at all.

now the TRUTH. the one who sits on the Throne did received POWER. let the bible tell you. Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

well the Lord Jesus received how much power? ...... ALL, yes the G1411 δύναμις dunamis (d̮ï '-na-mis) n. and the G1849 ἐξουσία exousia (e-xou-siy'-a) n. see how simple it is when one just says what the bible says. and it is he, the "Lord" Jesus who sits on the throne.

so try again, because your theology about the trinity is in ERROR.

101G.
 
Hi Fred and @Peterlag

I read the post that Fred is referring us to, concerning the text in Greek for Thomas' exclamation.
The examination of the Greek text does not allow us to state, as Fred intends, that Thomas was calling Jesus God. It just tell us that he used "Lord" and "God" in the same sentence... a practice that, as we will see, would be common in apostolic letters and would indeed indicate the opposite of what our friend Fred claims: that Lord Jesus and God were treated as different persons.

To validate the claim that Thomas was declaring Jesus his God...

  • Jesus would have been wrong regarding Who He thought Thomas worshiped.. Jesus had declared just few days before that his disciples had as God the same Person Jesus had as God, namely, their common Father. Didn't Jesus know his disciples well, after all?
  • Thomas would have disregarded what the woman told him Jesus had commanded. Jesus had commanded the woman to tell the disciples that He had to go to his God and Father, who was the same God and Father of them.
  • Thomas would have defied Peter's doctrine and leadership. After Pentecost, disciples preached that the God of their Ancestors (YHWH, the God of Israel they worshiped) had raised Jesus, who is declared God's "Servant".
  • Thomas would have been at odds with subsequent apostolic letters. Over and over, God and Jesus are treated as separate entities within the same salutation or sentence. In several occasions, God is referred to specifically as "The Father", while Jesus is called specifically "Lord".
So let's think: Using Ockham's razor, Which hypothesis explains things in a simpler way...
  1. Was Thomas recognizing that God (YHWH) had raised his Lord (Jesus) and this is why He cried: "My Lord and My God!", or
  2. Was Thomas following a different doctrinal path from Jesus, the other 11 apostles, and his nation?
We have to remember that Thomas’ statement occurred in a moment of surprise and even perhaps shock. Thomas could no longer deny that Jesus was alive and that God had raised him from the dead. Thomas saw that what Jesus had said was true. The Father had worked in Jesus and raised him from the dead. Thomas, looking at the living Jesus, saw both Jesus and the God who raised him from the dead.
 
He went a little farther, and falling on His face, He prayed, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” (Matthew 26:39)

View attachment 755
I personally like to pray with my face to the ground, as Jesus did.

Jesus said that Our Father was His God (John 20:17). So He worshiped Him.
ONLY while HE was on earth as a 'man' = SEE Philippians 2:5-11 and Hebrews chapter 1

the LORD does not bow down to His FATHER in Revelation

But the Holy Angels and Cherubim bow down to the LORD who Stands in the Midst of the Throne.
As does ALL of Heaven, except the FATHER
 
Jesus did not correct Thomas because Thomas was not addressing Jesus when he said “My God”.
Thomas adressed Jesus when he said “My Lord”.
The apostles taught that God (the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) had raised Jesus from the dead, so they knew that well.
In apostolic letters, they typically give the Father the title of “God” while they give Jesus the title of “Lord”.
Must few days before Thomas, Jesus had declared his God and Father to be the same God and Father of His disciples.(John 20:17]
You are lacking in understanding here in your post.

As such, you have formed an erroneous opinion of who Christ is: OT/NT/Revelation

Please read carefully beginning in Genesis, with much prayer and patience.
 
ONLY while HE was on earth as a 'man' = SEE Philippians 2:5-11 and Hebrews chapter 1

the LORD does not bow down to His FATHER in Revelation

But the Holy Angels and Cherubim bow down to the LORD who Stands in the Midst of the Throne.
As does ALL of Heaven, except the FATHER

Hi, DavidTree

Bowing down is certainly a cultural gesture, proper of this earth.
We don't know what "cultural gestures" will be preserved in the future or beyond our grave. We just don't know.
What I know is that Jesus keeps considering God "his God" in the Book of Revelation.

Have a great day, David, and nice meeting you on the Forum
 
This doesn't at all detract from the fact that Jesus is referred to as "my God" in John 20:28.

See above.

See my first comment.

Good morning Fred

I'm afraid you're just stating "Arguments A, B and C does not detract from X", without reconciling X with the arguments presented.
So here I go again with the 3 issues you seem to have dismissed without refutation.

To validate the claim that Thomas was declaring Jesus his God...

  • Jesus would have been wrong regarding Who He thought Thomas worshiped. Jesus had declared just few days before that his disciples had as God the same Person Jesus had as God, namely, their common Father. Didn't Jesus know his disciples well, after all?
  • Thomas would have disregarded what the woman told him Jesus had commanded. Jesus had commanded the woman to tell the disciples that He had to go to his God and Father, who was the same God and Father of them.
  • Thomas would have been at odds with subsequent apostolic letters. Over and over, God and Jesus are treated as separate entities within the same salutation or sentence. In several occasions, God is referred to specifically as "The Father", while Jesus is called specifically "Lord".
 
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