The Nature of God in the Atonement

[TomL]

I will go on record saying the following with full conviction I'm 100% correct.

PSA basically teaches that God doesn’t save us from sin or from death. But instead God saves us from himself. And he does in by punishing himself since Jesus is God. There is no justice in PSA for the guilty was not punished, but the innocent. That by definition is injustice. PSA is a theological pretzel, a mess.

Those who believe in the heretical doctrine of PSA do not understand the Tri-Unity of God. No matter how much they will deny that fact its true. PSA teaches a fracture Trinity, a separation of the Godhead. A Dis-Unity of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. An angry gos pouring out his vengeance, anger, retribution on his own son- that is pure paganism, greek philosophy, idolatry, gnosticism at its very core. It is anti god, anti-christ, anti-biblical, anti-christian. PSA is a theological stronghold.

And many have the audacity to say its the gospel. PUKE.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5
For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

hope this helps !!!

A colossal objection to PSA

PSA teaches a fractured Trinity, a separation of the Godhead. A Dis-Unity of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. An angry God pouring out his vengeance, anger, retribution on his own son

Making it very difficult to accept the doctrine of PSA

 

[civic]

A colossal objection to PSA

PSA teaches a fractured Trinity, a separation of the Godhead. A Dis-Unity of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. An angry God pouring out his vengeance, anger, retribution on his own son

Making it very difficult to accept the doctrine of PSA

Agree 100% as its actually anti-trinitarian.

Well said brother !!!

 

[Runningman]

Hmm... are you an Annihilationist?

Do you deny the existence of hell?

You could say that, but I prefer the term conditional immortality. The gospel teaches that eternal life is conditional, therefore those who don't obey the gospel do not have eternal life, i.e., people are not living forever in hell.

However, regardless of that, the question you asked me was "Do you believe Christ suffered the punishment for what your sins deserved?" in post #371 and I am curious if you think Jesus went to hell in eternal conscious torment or if he truly died instead.

 

[civic]

You could say that, but I prefer the term conditional immortality. The gospel teaches that eternal life is conditional, therefore those who don't obey the gospel do not have eternal life, i.e., people are not living forever in hell.

However, regardless of that, the question you asked me was "Do you believe Christ suffered the punishment for what your sins deserved?" in post #371 and I am curious if you think Jesus went to hell in eternal conscious torment or if he truly died instead.

a unitarian Annihilationist very similar to the JW's.

 

[Runningman]

a unitarian Annihilationist very similar to the JW's.

Wasn't sure what the JWs believe, but yeah I believe we have a similar belief about that. It's scriptural though.

 

[civic]

However, regardless of that, the question you asked me was "Do you believe Christ suffered the punishment for what your sins deserved?" in post #371 and I am curious if you think Jesus went to hell in eternal conscious torment or if he truly died instead.

good question

 

[Dizerner]

However, regardless of that, the question you asked me was "Do you believe Christ suffered the punishment for what your sins deserved?" in post #371 and I am curious if you think Jesus went to hell in eternal conscious torment or if he truly died instead.

Yes, Jesus experienced the equivalent suffering. You can for example experience twice the suffering in half the time. Remember as well that I believe Jesus is the Infinite Creator, so there is no limit to capacity here.

I would point out to you that mere existence is not "living." Jesus said to people physically alive "you have life in you" and "you are dead in your sins." That materialistic idea of physical existence being life must be discarded.

If physical death were the only price of sin, we all pay off our sin debt just by physically dying. Then after death, we have no more guilt, since we have fulfilled the punishment. What a relief and easy exit for a lifetime of sin—just to say goodbye in a moment.

Many sinners have verbally testified that if death is the only punishment for sin, they would be relieved to take it. There is a degree of suffering where any man alive would wish himself better off dead, and Scripture even speaks specifically of this in judgment.

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

That is after they had believed.

False, it was before Christ sat down at the Right Hand of the Majesty on High Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

 

[praise_yeshua]

So did you know that there are others who are divine, according to the Bible, or not? We can agree that God has divine characteristics. Aside from the Bible teaching people to be like God, it also bluntly states that they can share in the divine nature (of God.) 2 Peter 1:4 is a good place for you to start. Actually, I may open a thread about this soon. I am beginning to notice a pattern of people who don't understand what being divine means.

I'm sure you have a perspective. Feel free to share. I hope you understand the English word perspective. That isn't in the Bible either.

I asked if you where Divine? Can you at least answer that simple question?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, I can, and I have.

Do you somehow in some twisted way think that because God is merciful he has no wrath?

If God has no wrath, what is there even to be merciful for?

You post nonsense.

Geesh....

Wrath comes at the end of being merciful. He isn't denying wrath all together. The sacrifice of Christ didn't require that God personally punish Christ equal to the wrath due those that hate God.

This is really a nonsensical argument you have. The quality of the sacrifice in the Divine Person of Jesus Christ is what established the value of the sacrifice. Not your sin.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, Jesus experienced the equivalent suffering. You can for example experience twice the suffering in half the time. Remember as well that I believe Jesus is the Infinite Creator, so there is no limit to capacity here.

I would point out to you that mere existence is not "living." Jesus said to people physically alive "you have life in you" and "you are dead in your sins." That materialistic idea of physical existence being life must be discarded.

Yeah. A real winner here.....

Do you have children? How do you value them? Just dead carcasses to do with as you please?

If physical death were the only price of sin, we all pay off our sin debt just by physically dying. Then after death, we have no more guilt, since we have fulfilled the punishment. What a relief and easy exit for a lifetime of sin—just to say goodbye in a moment.

You're right in this some degree. You can make the argument that any man could die. Not the requirement of Jesus Christ the only iteration of man that could merit such.

Many sinners have verbally testified that if death is the only punishment for sin, they would be relieved to take it. There is a degree of suffering where any man alive would wish himself better off dead, and Scripture even speaks specifically of this in judgment.

Again. Not just any man. You're seeing value in your sin. Not the merit of Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Wasn't sure what the JWs believe, but yeah I believe we have a similar belief about that. It's scriptural though.

Some advice.....Expand your knowledge. You don't know Trinitarianism. You should get to know it. You don't really know many things that others know. Not saying you need to know everything. Knowing things takes time.

You seem like you want to know more at times and at times you don't.

 

[Dizerner]

Yes, Christ.

I accept your suffering on the Cross as the punishment for my own personal sins as atonement for them.

Thank for you for allowing me the opportunity of sharing Your Gospel with others, and warning them of your Holiness.

All praise to God.

 

[civic]

Yes, Christ.

I accept your suffering on the Cross as the punishment for my own personal sins as atonement for them.

Thank for you for allowing me the opportunity of sharing Your Gospel with others, and warning them of your Holiness.

All praise to God.

Yes Jesus you paid the price for my sins and were crucified by evil men on my behalf. By your stipes I am healed from the guilt and punishment for my sins. You bore my sins on the cross and accomplished the forgiveness for my sins making atonement for them.

And your death on the cross is only half of the gospel, your Resurrection from the dead which gives life is the other half of the gospel message which Paul spent the entire 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians defending as did the Apostles. He has Risen from the dead after He was crucified by wicked men. Jesus conquered sin, death and the devil by His death, burial and Resurrection from the dead.

Your true gospel has been preached here on this forum and We thank you for the opportunity to share your gospel with the online world.

All praise to Jesus, All hail King Jesus, Immanuel.

All hail King Jesus
All hail Emmanuel
King of Kings
Lord of Lords
Bright Morning Star
And throughout eternity
I'll sing Your praises
And I'll reign with You throughout eternity

[Verse]
All hail King Jesus
All hail Emmanuel
King of Kings
Lord of Lords
Bright Morning Star
And throughout eternity
I'll sing Your praises
And I'll reign with You throughout eternity

[Verse]
All hail King Jesus
All hail Emmanuel
King of Kings
Lord of Lords
Bright Morning Star
And throughout eternity
I'll sing Your praises
And I'll reign with You throughout eternity

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, Christ.

I accept your suffering on the Cross as the punishment for my own personal sins as atonement for them.

Thank for you for allowing me the opportunity of sharing Your Gospel with others, and warning them of your Holiness.

All praise to God.

Guilt. You're missing guilt here. I know you want to "shake the dust off your feet" with me.....

How about we compromise in this and talk about guilt.

 

[civic]

Guilt. You're missing guilt here. I know you want to "shake the dust off your feet" with me.....

How about we compromise in this and talk about guilt.

Great topic that deserves being flushed out

 

[TomL]

@TomL



False, it was before Christ sat down at the Right Hand of the Majesty on High Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

That does nothing at all to deny it was after they had faith.

 

[brightfame52]

That does nothing at all to deny it was after they had faith.

Yes it does, ts outright wrong. Jesus had purged their sins away and set down at the Right Hand of God b4 they were born. When current believers were born, they already had their sins purged away, the guilt thereof, back when Christ sat down on the right hand of the majesty on High. And you are denying it saying it wasn't till they believed. Thats denial and it denies Christ and His finished work.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, Jesus experienced the equivalent suffering. You can for example experience twice the suffering in half the time. Remember as well that I believe Jesus is the Infinite Creator, so there is no limit to capacity here.

I would point out to you that mere existence is not "living." Jesus said to people physically alive "you have life in you" and "you are dead in your sins." That materialistic idea of physical existence being life must be discarded.

If physical death were the only price of sin, we all pay off our sin debt just by physically dying. Then after death, we have no more guilt, since we have fulfilled the punishment. What a relief and easy exit for a lifetime of sin—just to say goodbye in a moment.

Many sinners have verbally testified that if death is the only punishment for sin, they would be relieved to take it. There is a degree of suffering where any man alive would wish himself better off dead, and Scripture even speaks specifically of this in judgment.

Your argument requires it be applied to Jesus too. So Jesus was not "living" after he died? That's what I believe too! What do I believe? God resurrected Jesus.

Jesus didn't take our punishment did he? That isn't what the Bible says. Jesus didn't go to hell for eternity. The only way your theory would work is if Jesus was in eternal conscious torment right now. Do you want to know what really happens when we die?

 

[TomL]

Yes it does, ts outright wrong. Jesus had purged their sins away and set down at the Right Hand of God b4 they were born. When current believers were born, they already had their sins purged away, the guilt thereof, back when Christ sat down on the right hand of the majesty on High. And you are denying it saying it wasn't till they believed. Thats denial and it denies Christ and His finished work.

Nothing is stated about this being before they were born

This is after the cross

Hebrews 1:1–4 (LEB) — 1 Although God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets, 2 in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world, 3 who is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, sustaining all things by the word of power. When he had made purification for sins through him, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become by so much better than the angels, by as much as he has inherited a more excellent name than theirs.

Hebrews 1:5–6 (LEB) — 5 For to which of the angels did he ever say, “You are my son, today I have begotten you,” and again, “I will be his father, and he will be my son”? 6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “And let all the angels of God worship him.”