The Nature of God in the Atonement

[Dizerner]

Yes. Death is God's judgement for sin.

I noticed you quoted this:

but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,
there will be wrath and fury.

Would you see that as a kind or form of death?

What happens with Satan is Irrelevant for many reasons.

Perhaps you don't think Satan sinned?

Is Satan exempt from God's Word?

Does Satan not get sin's wages?

Death is and always will be God's judgement for sin.

And would define death as the cessation of physical life only?

Is the Second Death also considered death?

We must know exactly what death means...

 

[Dizerner]

It is good that you mention the second death.
There is more than one death that we face.

Excellent point, here, py.

 

[Joe]

I noticed you quoted this:

but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,
there will be wrath and fury.

Would you see that as a kind or form of death?

No, death is death. The peace one has in death or torment one has in death happens to them in death.

Perhaps you don't think Satan sinned?

Is Satan exempt from God's Word?

Does Satan not get sin's wages?

Again, what happens with Satan is irrelevant for many reasons.

And would define death as the cessation of physical life only?

Is the Second Death also considered death?

We must know exactly what death means...

When people of faith died before the coming of our Lord were they tormented in the grave or not? We know they went into the grave, sheol, hades, hell, but were they tormented for their sins, or were they comforted-at peace-in a place of paradise awaiting resurrection?

King David said, "For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption."

Was king David in torment while waiting on the Holy One to die and resurrect? Or was he in a state of peace-comfort-in a place of paradise awaiting resurrection from the Holy One?

Did the believing sinner on the cross beside our Lord go into torment upon his death or be with our Lord in paradise?
"Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise"

And knowing the righteous and unrighteous both died and went into the grave, sheol, hades, hell, what makes you think our Lord became Godless and suffered torment while in sheol? There is zero biblical evidence for this teaching.

Yes, the second death is death.

What is death? Not being alive. If it is anything but this, then you'll need to prove the Godless person that is alive is actually dead. If they're alive in the flesh and yet dead in the heart towards God, they are still alive. Death and torment awaits them, but they are still alive. And for this reason we preach Jesus Christ to the world for, "he (God) says, “At an acceptable time I listened to you, in a day of salvation I helped you.”Behold, now is the acceptable time. Behold, now is the day of salvation.

God Bless

 

[praise_yeshua]

Excellent point, here, py.

So what brings about the second death?

Debt?

 

[Dizerner]

No, death is death. The peace one has in death or torment one has in death happens to them in death.

The relief of non-existence is not the wages of sin, and this lie will encourage many sinners there is no great price to pay.

Scripture says the wrath of God is against all ungodliness.

Again, what happens with Satan is irrelevant for many reasons.

Satan sinned, and gets sin's wages, he is NOT exempt from Scripture.

To say Satan is not a lesson for all of us, and is "irrelevant" from Scripture, is to set a very godless example to others.

When people of faith died before the coming of our Lord were they tormented in the grave or not? We know they went into the grave, sheol, hades, hell, but were they tormented for their sins, or were they comforted-at peace-in a place of paradise awaiting resurrection?

Jesus took the wages of sin, the torment all those who trusted in him deserved for their sin.

This alone is why they go to Paradise in Sheol in Abraham's bosom and receive peace.

Not because the wages of sin is peace in death, a very grievous lie of Satan.

And knowing the righteous and unrighteous both died and went into the grave, sheol, hades, hell, what makes you think our Lord became Godless and suffered torment while in sheol? There is zero biblical evidence for this teaching.

Zero, lol? That's really untrue and even bizarre to say.

You said Jesus took the penalty of sin for humanity.

You say hell really does exist.

Then you do something really, really strange—you disconnect hell from the wages of sin.

Why?

No, wrath and fury to all those who are disobedient is not a peaceful relief, what an encouragement for unbelievers.

There is in fact, overwhelming and massive evidence in Scripture that the penalty of sin is God's wrath.

How can one not see it when it's almost on every page?

I wonder.

Yes, the second death is death.

And of course we are told the Second Death is the Lake of Fire in the wrath of God being tormented nonstop.

Death and torment awaits them

Exactly why we must warn all sinners, and not tell them the wages of sin is relief and peace.

No, hell is a real place, and the wages of sin is the BIBLICAL definition of death, not the secular definition of death.

Jesus did indeed pay the penalty of sin for all humanity, and it is not a secular materialists idea of death.

The justice of God was fully upheld and in God's mercy no single point of justice was violated.

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound!

And let us not lessen the holiness of God nor the evilness of our sin nor the greatness of his sacrifice!

Thank you Jesus for taking the hell I deserve!

Please trust him today to do it for you...

Godspeed.

 

[civic]

No, death is death. The peace one has in death or torment one has in death happens to them in death.

Again, what happens with Satan is irrelevant for many reasons.

When people of faith died before the coming of our Lord were they tormented in the grave or not? We know they went into the grave, sheol, hades, hell, but were they tormented for their sins, or were they comforted-at peace-in a place of paradise awaiting resurrection?

King David said, "For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption."

Was king David in torment while waiting on the Holy One to die and resurrect? Or was he in a state of peace-comfort-in a place of paradise awaiting resurrection from the Holy One?

Did the believing sinner on the cross beside our Lord go into torment upon his death or be with our Lord in paradise?
"Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise"

And knowing the righteous and unrighteous both died and went into the grave, sheol, hades, hell, what makes you think our Lord became Godless and suffered torment while in sheol? There is zero biblical evidence for this teaching.

Yes, the second death is death.

What is death? Not being alive. If it is anything but this, then you'll need to prove the Godless person that is alive is actually dead. If they're alive in the flesh and yet dead in the heart towards God, they are still alive. Death and torment awaits them, but they are still alive. And for this reason we preach Jesus Christ to the world for, "he (God) says, “At an acceptable time I listened to you, in a day of salvation I helped you.”Behold, now is the acceptable time. Behold, now is the day of salvation.

God Bless

Amen preach it brother !!!

 

[Johann]

The sacrifice under the OT was holy unto the Lord, as without any doubt our Lord was holy unto His Father. The OT sacrifice never encountered God's wrath, as one needs to get his pound of flesh, but illustrates how God mercifully provided a representative for the people that dies for their sins; thus removing the sins from them and keeping them in covenant with Him.

Hi @Joe

I have observed in you a deep and sincere reverence for the Holy Scriptures.



The sacrifices under the Old Covenant were consecrated as holy unto the Lord (Exodus 29:37; Leviticus 6:25), just as the Lord Jesus was holy unto the Father (Luke 1:35; Hebrews 7:26). The Old Testament sacrifices did not personally experience God's wrath in the sense of punitive justice being poured out upon them, but they did symbolically bear the penalty of the worshiper’s sin (Leviticus 1:4; 4:20–21). These sacrifices illustrate how God, in mercy, provided a representative substitute whose death ritually cleansed the people, removed sin’s defilement, and maintained covenant relationship with Him (Leviticus 17:11; Hebrews 9:22). In this way, they prefigured the perfect sacrifice of Christ, who bore sin as the true substitute and reconciled man to God through His obedient death (Isaiah 53:6, 10; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 10:10).



“The sacrifice under the OT was holy unto the Lord”
Correct--

“Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy...” (Exodus 29:37)
“It is most holy: every male among the priests shall eat thereof: it shall be eaten in the holy place: it is most holy.” (Leviticus 6:25–26)

“as without any doubt our Lord was holy unto His Father”
Correct and Scripturally sound brother.

“That holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35)
“For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners...” (Hebrews 7:26)

“The OT sacrifice never encountered God's wrath, as one needs to get his pound of flesh...”

The idea of "God needing a pound of flesh" is not a biblical description of divine wrath, but a caricature. Sorry Joe.

While OT sacrifices did not personally suffer wrath, they did symbolically bear the consequences of sin (death, bloodshed, expulsion outside the camp - Lev. 16:27). The scapegoat, for instance, bore the people’s sins away (Leviticus 16:22), and the burnt offering was a “soothing aroma” (רֵיחַ נִיחוֹחַ) to the Lord (Leviticus 1:9), indicating divine acceptance of the substitution.

“...but illustrates how God mercifully provided a representative for the people that dies for their sins”
Correct.

“And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.” (Leviticus 1:4)
“For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls...” (Leviticus 17:11)

“thus removing the sins from them and keeping them in covenant with Him.”
Also correct.

“And the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.” (Leviticus 4:20, cf. 4:26, 4:31)
The Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16) was the central act of maintaining the people’s covenant purity and relationship with God, prefiguring Christ’s once-for-all atonement (Hebrews 9:12–14; 10:1–14).

Let's see what we can glean from this--

Your core idea - that Old Testament sacrifices represented God’s mercy in providing a holy substitute to maintain covenantal fellowship - is biblically sound.

However, describing the absence of wrath needs nuance... while the animal did not personally endure wrath in a penal-legal sense, it did serve as a substitutionary figure within a typological system anticipating the true wrath-bearing Servant in Isaiah 53:10.

Christ fulfilled this as the antitype, bearing sin in full under divine judgment, not as arbitrary punishment, but as the redemptive fulfillment of divine justice and mercy.

Aside from that, a reverent and well-considered response, brother.

Does Isaiah 53 Support Penal Substitutionary Atonement? (A Response to the Progressive Christian Interpretation of the Suffering Servant)

Alisa Childers

www.alisachildersblog.com

Penal substitution: The testimony of Scripture | Bible League Trust

www.bibleleaguetrust.org

Johann.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The relief of non-existence is not the wages of sin, and this lie will encourage many sinners there is no great price to pay.

Scripture says the wrath of God is against all ungodliness.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Pay attention to what you reference.

 

[civic]

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Pay attention to what you reference.

Ditto

 

[praise_yeshua]

Thank you Jesus for taking the hell I deserve!

Please trust him today to do it for you...

Godspeed.

The idea that Christ literally suffered hell for you is preposterous. Christ died for you. You believe that isn't enough FOR YOU.

Why do you deserve hell?

 

[praise_yeshua]

While OT sacrifices did not personally suffer wrath, they did symbolically bear the consequences of sin (death, bloodshed, expulsion outside the camp - Lev. 16:27). The scapegoat, for instance, bore the people’s sins away (Leviticus 16:22), and the burnt offering was a “soothing aroma” (רֵיחַ נִיחוֹחַ) to the Lord (Leviticus 1:9), indicating divine acceptance of the substitution.

“...but illustrates how God mercifully provided a representative for the people that dies for their sins”
Correct.

“And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.” (Leviticus 1:4)
“For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls...” (Leviticus 17:11)

“thus removing the sins from them and keeping them in covenant with Him.”
Also correct.

“And the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.” (Leviticus 4:20, cf. 4:26, 4:31)
The Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16) was the central act of maintaining the people’s covenant purity and relationship with God, prefiguring Christ’s once-for-all atonement (Hebrews 9:12–14; 10:1–14).

Let's see what we can glean from this--

Your core idea - that Old Testament sacrifices represented God’s mercy in providing a holy substitute to maintain covenantal fellowship - is biblically sound.

However, describing the absence of wrath needs nuance... while the animal did not personally endure wrath in a penal-legal sense, it did serve as a substitutionary figure within a typological system anticipating the true wrath-bearing Servant in Isaiah 53:10.

Christ fulfilled this as the antitype, bearing sin in full under divine judgment, not as arbitrary punishment, but as the redemptive fulfillment of divine justice and mercy.

So... when did this "wrath" you insist was need take place?

You seemingly abandoned this argument you're trying to make. I'm glad you're back for another "round". Unfortunately, you need correcting.

If you insist that Christ suffered wrath from God, when did this take place? Be specific. All those who make these arguments NEVER detail when such took place. There is only one possible biblical answer and I haven't seen it from you yet. That is why I asked from your "top" argument. Please share.

Christ never faced wrath from God.

 

[Dizerner]

The idea that Christ literally suffered hell for you is preposterous. Christ died for you. You believe that isn't enough FOR YOU.

It's literally what Scripture teaches and the heart of the Good News itself, that Christ bore my punishment.

YOU are the one ridiculous to be calling God's Word and God's holiness ridiculous!

Get behind me Satan!

Why do you deserve hell?

It's the wages of sin, spiritual death.

 

[Johann]

So... when did this "wrath" you insist was need take place?

You seemingly abandoned this argument you're trying to make. I'm glad you're back for another "round". Unfortunately, you need correcting.

If you insist that Christ suffered wrath from God, when did this take place? Be specific. All those who make these arguments NEVER detail when such took place. There is only one possible biblical answer and I haven't seen it from you yet. That is why I asked from your "top" argument. Please share.

Christ never faced wrath from God.

If I don't respond to you, don't take it personally.

J.

 

[Dizerner]

If you insist that Christ suffered wrath from God, when did this take place? Be specific. All those who make these arguments NEVER detail when such took place.

Lies and slander.

It's been said, over and over again, what Scripture says, what Jesus said:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

And the sky became completely darkened.

Why do you fight the very Gospel itself, you need to repent before God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It's literally what Scripture teaches and the heart of the Good News itself, that Christ bore my punishment.

So Christ's death wasn't enough for you?

YOU are the one ridiculous to be calling God's Word and God's holiness ridiculous!

That is what you've been taught. It made you feel wonderful that Christ suffered extreme abuse for you. I once believed the same thing. I know how it made me feel. It gave me value to think that Christ's suffering was so extreme. The more extreme I made it, the more I felt that God cared about me.

Holiness is found in living. What good is holiness that dies or suffers damnation?

Get behind me Satan!

Please..... just let it go. It doesn't add up to anything but self worth and pride in the suffering of Christ.

It's the wages of sin, spiritual death.

Again. Nothing Adam nor Eve did was worthy of damnation. Rejecting the death of Jesus Christ is worthy of damnation. Such is righteous vengeance.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If I don't respond to you, don't take it personally.

J.

I don't. You're being selective in your approach. There is a reason for this. You want to sow seeds that you think will grow. You can't do that with me.

 

[civic]

The idea that Christ literally suffered hell for you is preposterous. Christ died for you. You believe that isn't enough FOR YOU.

Why do you deserve hell?

Ditto

 

[praise_yeshua]

If I don't respond to you, don't take it personally.

J.

I'm curious if you believe Christ still "relives" the sin of humanity in His conscience/soul?

You know.... like this "Hebrew" you know from Isaiah 53:11.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

מֵֽעֲמַ֚ל

מֵֽעֲמַ֚ל נַפְשׁוֹ֙ יִרְאֶ֣ה יִשְׂבָּ֔ע בְּדַעְתּ֗וֹ יַצְדִּ֥יק צַדִּ֛יק עַבְדִּ֖י

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15984#v11

 

[Johann]

I'm curious if you believe Christ still "relives" the sin of humanity in His conscience/soul?

You know.... like this "Hebrew" you know from Isaiah 53:11.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

מֵֽעֲמַ֚ל

מֵֽעֲמַ֚ל נַפְשׁוֹ֙ יִרְאֶ֣ה יִשְׂבָּ֔ע בְּדַעְתּ֗וֹ יַצְדִּ֥יק צַדִּ֛יק עַבְדִּ֖י

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15984#v11

Chabad,org is the last place I would go for info @praise_yeshua and no, I don't believe Messiah "relives" the sin of humanity in His conscience/nephesh-the grammar is explicit.

מֵעֲמַל נַפְשׁוֹ
meʿamal nafsho – “From the labor (or anguish/toil) of his soul”

יִרְאֶה יִשְׂבָּע
yir’eh yisbaʿ – “He shall see [it] and be satisfied”

בְּדַעְתּוֹ
bedaʿto – “By his knowledge”

יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי
yatzdiq tzaddiq ʿavdi – “shall the righteous one, my servant, justify [many]”

לָרַבִּים וַעֲוֹנֹתָם הוּא יִסְבֹּל (from the end of v.11)
larabbim vaʿavonotam hu yisbol – “for the many, and their iniquities he shall bear”

Should you wish, we can parse this section, and come to a deeper understanding of the sufferings of our Lord Jesus Christ, if not, that's fine, no worries.

I know you enjoy the LXX, I read both the LXX and MT--here is a link I want you to peruse and would welcome your review.

Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls - Isaiah 53

Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls Translation page

dssenglishbible.com

Shalom.

Johann.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Chabad,org is the last place I would go for info @praise_yeshua and no, I don't believe Messiah "relives" the sin of humanity in His conscience/nephesh-the grammar is explicit.

מֵעֲמַל נַפְשׁוֹ
meʿamal nafsho – “From the labor (or anguish/toil) of his soul”

יִרְאֶה יִשְׂבָּע
yir’eh yisbaʿ – “He shall see [it] and be satisfied”

בְּדַעְתּוֹ
bedaʿto – “By his knowledge”

יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי
yatzdiq tzaddiq ʿavdi – “shall the righteous one, my servant, justify [many]”

לָרַבִּים וַעֲוֹנֹתָם הוּא יִסְבֹּל (from the end of v.11)
larabbim vaʿavonotam hu yisbol – “for the many, and their iniquities he shall bear”

Should you wish, we can parse this section, and come to a deeper understanding of the sufferings of our Lord Jesus Christ, if not, that's fine, no worries.

I know you enjoy the LXX, I read both the LXX and MT--here is a link I want you to peruse and would welcome your review.

Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls - Isaiah 53

Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls Translation page

dssenglishbible.com

Shalom.

Johann.

The Great Isaiah Scroll has the designation of 1Q. Which comes from the first cave of Qumran. You will notice in the page you reference that there is also a 1Qb. Which reads differently than 1Qa. Also 4Q57 is significantly different.

As somewhat of a "Jewish" "Hebrew" historian yourself......you know Rashi. You are well aware of the two Messiah appeals in Rabbinic Judaism which are designed to disconnect Israel from the teaching of the suffering Messiah. "The forefathers" of those who sought to complete a work of deception.

I appealed to Chabad to know your preferences....

To understand verse #10 you must deal with verse 11. The "travail" of Christ in the Atonement. A choice must be made. A choice between two or three narratives.

The DSS don't represent what most believe they represent. They do show us that there was an effort to change the words of Isaiah 53:11 (as we designate them now) to avoid any context of the suffering Messiah being "ben David". The suffering King.

I don't deny the suffering of Messiah. He suffered in submission to humanity. The very concept of "King" is a distinction that God tried to avoid among Israel.

Most believe that God is looking to "subject" mankind to His rule when God is simply seek willing servants.

This image people see of "King" in Jesus Christ isn't what He is....

1Sa 8:10 So Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking for a king from him.
1Sa 8:11 He said, “These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen and to run before his chariots.
1Sa 8:12 And he will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and some to plow his ground and to reap his harvest, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots.
1Sa 8:13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers.
1Sa 8:14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive orchards and give them to his servants.
1Sa 8:15 He will take the tenth of your grain and of your vineyards and give it to his officers and to his servants.
1Sa 8:16 He will take your male servants and female servants and the best of your young men and your donkeys, and put them to his work.
1Sa 8:17 He will take the tenth of your flocks, and you shall be his slaves.
1Sa 8:18 And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day.”

Christ the "king" bowed to humanity.....

Joh 18:37 Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”

Mankind just keeps seeing what they want to see in Christ.

Our priestly king doesn't seek to rule us. He seeks a loving relationship wherein we serve each other.

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
Joh 13:4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
Joh 13:5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
Joh 13:6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
Joh 13:7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Joh 13:9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
Joh 13:12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
Joh 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.