The Issue of Limited Atonement

[FreeInChrist]

You don't see any value whatsoever for the Cross or for Pentecost?

I never said that. The bible was put together fairly in a chronological manner, as much as we actually know. When Jesus was initially sent for the lost sheep of Israel, and the crucifixion took place He established a new covent with his blood.. a necessary one because prior to that the blood from animals did not sustain the atonement for sin and to purify individuals and the community.

According to the accounts in the Book of Acts they primarily mention Jewish attendees at Pentecost, with no specific numbers given for non-Jews. While some Gentiles may have been present, however the focus was on the Jewish converts who received the Holy Spirit during this event.

Ai says

Non-Jewish Presence​

• Jews and Proselytes: The attendees were mainly Jews and proselytes (Gentiles who converted to Judaism). The Book of Acts mentions that devout men from various nations were present, but it does not specify the exact number of non-Jews.
• Gentile Believers: While the focus was on Jewish converts, some scholars suggest that there may have been a few Gentiles present, but they were not the primary audience. The majority of the 3,000 converts recorded were likely Jewish.

The exact number of non-Jews at Pentecost is unclear, as the biblical accounts primarily emphasize the Jewish participants. The event marked the beginning of the church's outreach to Gentiles, which became more pronounced in later chapters of Acts.

Pentecost marking the beginning of this outreach, as the Holy Spirit was poured out on both Jews and Gentiles, was signifying the inclusion of all nations in the Christian faith.

So important yes, but again to the Jew first and eventually to the Gentiles and others because our story starts after these things.

Whoever believes in Christ is predestined to be confirmed to Christ's Image. They are the predestined ones.

Are you saying that the predestined you mention here was decided before time? To me it is that is Whoever believes in Christ is to be confirmed to Christ's Image, only if they have the faith and said yes to the invitation. That this is all part of the Heavenly Fathers initial plans and blueprints as he set up the world from beginning to end. For there always will be those who say no.

I never cease to be amazed at how God vocationally elects people to spread the faith. Who would have thought that scattered Greek-speaking Jews, with their Greek LXX OT, would take on a major role in the spread of Christianity across Europe when they came to faith in Christ. Keep the faith.

 

[Jim]

@Jim @FreeInChrist @DavidTree

Not all, if the scriptures are rightly divided per 2nd Timothy 2:15, not even close being prerequisite from fallen man's state.

1. In the "legal" phase of our salvation from sin and condemnation, only the faith and obedience of our surety is the require payment, along with his death and resurrection ~ so many scriptures could be provided for this and which I have many times over.

2. I would agree in the "practical" phase of one's salvation, yes, faith is prerequisite, along with water baptism, and walking blameless in God's commandment, etc., etc.

We have provided scriptures with examples of this over and over, to you and to our sister @FreeInChrist, over many years since when we first met in or around seventeen years ago.

Remember asking Paul the question when he was saved?

Paul said he was saved before the world began (2nd Timothy 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (1st Timothy 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (1st Timothy 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Romans 13:11).

So there, Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

I'm leaving shortly to go out of town to meet with some brethren to learn more of this Great LORD GOD who planned our great salvation before the world ever was created

I am sorry Red, but your eisegetic infusion of legal phases, practical phases etc. of salvation into the scripture is simply unacceptable and must be totally rejected.

 

[FreeInChrist]

@Jim @FreeInChrist @DavidTree

Not all, if the scriptures are rightly divided per 2nd Timothy 2:15, not even close being prerequisite from fallen man's state.

1. In the "legal" phase of our salvation from sin and condemnation, only the faith and obedience of our surety is the require payment, along with his death and resurrection ~ so many scriptures could be provided for this and which I have many times over.

2. I would agree in the "practical" phase of one's salvation, yes, faith is prerequisite, along with water baptism, and walking blameless in God's commandment, etc., etc.

We have provided scriptures with examples of this over and over, to you and to our sister @FreeInChrist, over many years since when we first met in or around seventeen years ago.

Remember asking Paul the question when he was saved?

Paul said he was saved before the world began (2nd Timothy 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (1st Timothy 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (1st Timothy 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Romans 13:11).

I am not ging into a lengthy debate on this with you for you have heard my side for ... you say... 17 years... but I must THANK YOU for proving my point.

Paul (Saul) said he was saved before the world began.....

WHY??????????????????????????/
For the very reason that Paul/Saul had been previously predestined to play and extremely important role on earth for God.

He was one of the important ones to be predestined because God could not leave that up to say the likes of Jeffry Dahmer, or Joe Biden or even Donald Trump.... Not what all Paul did and when it came time for him to fulfill what he was selected for God knew to find him during his journey to Damascus, where he encountered the Resurrected Christ, leading to his dramatic conversion to Christianity. This event transformed him from a persecutor of Christians into one of the greatest missionaries of the faith.

These are the types of people God predestined to make sue from Beginning .. with Adam to end with Jesus' return it would work..... NOT for everyday common people. (sorry Red... but you are an everyday person)

And I have one last question..... You mention the necessity of baptism above to be saved.... yet you say Saul was predestined before creation.

WHO BAPTISED HIM? THE FATHER, THE SON, OR THE HOLY SPIRIT.... MAYBE MICHAEL?

So there, Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

I'm leaving shortly to go out of town to meet with some brethren to learn more of this Great LORD GOD who planned our great salvation before the world ever was created

 

[DavidTree]

The pride of the Jews came before their fall.

(Rom 11:9) “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a recompense to them.”

The very blessings and privileges Israel enjoyed—symbolized by “their table” (their covenant status, the Law, temple worship, spiritual heritage)—became the very thing that led many of them to stumble. Instead of those gifts leading them to recognize the Messiah, they relied on their pride and rejected Him. So what should have been a place of nourishment and fellowship with God they turned into a trap, bringing judgment to themselves. Their rejection of Christ turned their blessings into grounds for spiritual hardening, fulfilling what the Scriptures had already foretold.

Now you claim that JESUS was promoting "Jewish pride"???

 

[DavidTree]

I am sorry Red, but your eisegetic infusion of legal phases, practical phases etc. of salvation into the scripture is simply unacceptable and must be totally rejected.

Good Afternoon Jim and @FreeInChrist and @Red Baker

GOD is The JUDGE = therefore HE established a LEGAL Ruling of Authority by which Satan and all the Angels,
both Good and Bad, can know that GOD is JUST and the Justifier of fallen Mankind thru the Eternal Legality of the BLOOD of CHRIST.

SEE Here = 1 Corinthians 2:6-8
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

@Red Baker - Do you know that the OT saints were 'born-again' by the Same WORD that became flesh???

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

And I have one last question..... You mention the necessity of baptism above to be saved.... yet you say Saul was predestined before creation.

WHO BAPTISED HIM? THE FATHER, THE SON, OR THE HOLY SPIRIT.... MAYBE MICHAEL?

@FreeInChrist, you do not follow my points very well, which does not surprise me. I never said that water Baptism is necessary for our legal salvation, since Christ paid that debt for us! But it is for our practical salvation, before any person can have a more perfect knowledge of the gospel of Christ, even though it cannot affect gift of eternal life! Which is the true meaning of:

Mark 16:16​

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”.

Only unbelievers will be damned; yet, folks that have never been baptised into the rellgion of Jesus Christ truly will lack a salvation, that includes a more complete knowledge of the gospel! A salvation that you are showing you are void of, even though a child of God. That no one in the OT enjoyed.

Just got in, so I kept it short.

 

[Red Baker]

@DavidTree

@Red Baker - Do you know that the OT saints were 'born-again' by the Same WORD that became flesh???

I do indeed! He secured the gift of eternal life for all of his elect by his perfect life of faith and obedience.

 

[DavidTree]

@DavidTree

I do indeed! He secured the gift of eternal life for all of his elect by his perfect life of faith and obedience.

GREAT

JESUS Says: "God is not the God of the dead, HE is the God of the LIVING." - Matt 12:27

SEE here - Exodus 3:16

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

 

[synergy]

Now you claim that JESUS was promoting "Jewish pride"???

Huh? Jesus never promoted pride. Read Rom 11:9 and tell me what Paul said about the downfall of non-believing Jews.

(Rom 11:9) “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a recompense to them.”

 

[Jim]

@FreeInChrist

@FreeInChrist, you do not follow my points very well, which does not surprise me. I never said that water Baptism is necessary for our legal salvation, since Christ paid that debt for us! But it is for our practical salvation, before any person can have a more perfect knowledge of the gospel of Christ, even though it cannot affect gift of eternal life! Which is the true meaning of:

Mark 16:16​

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”.

Only unbelievers will be damned; yet, folks that have never been baptised into the rellgion of Jesus Christ truly will lack a salvation, that includes a more complete knowledge of the gospel! A salvation that you are showing you are void of, even though a child of God. That no one in the OT enjoyed.

Just got in, so I kept it short.

A person that is baptized does not go down into the water stupid in matters of the gospel and come up out of the water intelligent in such matters. Salvation does not enhance the biblical knowledge of the one being saved. Over time, the indwelling Holy Spirit can and will assist the one who has been saved to a greater depth of knowledge and greater faith. But knowledge is not the purpose or reason for baptism at all.

 

[FreeInChrist]

@FreeInChrist

@FreeInChrist, you do not follow my points very well, which does not surprise me. I never said that water Baptism is necessary for our legal salvation, since Christ paid that debt for us! But it is for our practical salvation, before any person can have a more perfect knowledge of the gospel of Christ, even though it cannot affect gift of eternal life! Which is the true meaning of:

Mark 16:16​

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”.

Only unbelievers will be damned; yet, folks that have never been baptised into the rellgion of Jesus Christ truly will lack a salvation, that includes a more complete knowledge of the gospel! A salvation that you are showing you are void of, even though a child of God. That no one in the OT enjoyed.

Just got in, so I kept it short.

Believe me I know that. But the way you word somethings can be confusing to others.

 

[Red Baker]

@Jim

A person that is baptized does not go down into the water stupid in matters of the gospel and come up out of the water intelligent in such matters. Salvation does not enhance the biblical knowledge of the one being saved. Over time, the indwelling Holy Spirit can and will assist the one who has been saved to a greater depth of knowledge and greater faith. But knowledge is not the purpose or reason for baptism at all.

Good morning Jim,

I understand that, nevertheless, one that is properly baptized into Jesus Christ, does indeed have a much clearer understanding of the gospel, than let's say OT saints, who were never baptized according to the teachings of Romans 6:1-4, etc. There are many more examples that can be provided. This week I'm very short on time, due to helping a brou of believers starting up a place of worship about an hour from the house.

I'm plan on addressing another thread sometime today that Jaime started as I promised to do.

 

[Jim]

@Jim

Good morning Jim,

I understand that, nevertheless, one that is properly baptized into Jesus Christ, does indeed have a much clearer understanding of the gospel, than let's say OT saints, who were never baptized according to the teachings of Romans 6:1-4, etc.

That isn't produced by being baptized.

And yes, it is a good morning for me. I hope it is for you as well.

 

[brightfame52]

Limited Particular Atonement is seen in exactly who Christ Jesus is promised to save ! Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

His People isn't all mankind, Salvation was never promised to all mankind. Also His People to save has nothing to do with blood ethnicity, for that would deny Grace Salvation.

 

[civic]

OT saints were saved by faith
NT saints are saved by faith.

The difference is NT saints are born again having the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Pentecost was a one time event when the church was born and the Holy Spirit was that sign as per Acts 2 and Jesus teloing His disciples to wait until that day when the Holy Spirit would be in them and be another Helper for them forever.

hope this helps !!!

 

[synergy]

OT saints were saved by faith
NT saints are saved by faith.

The difference is NT saints are born again having the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Pentecost was a one time event when the church was born and the Holy Spirit was that sign as per Acts 2 and Jesus teloing His disciples to wait until that day when the Holy Spirit would be in them and be another Helper for them forever.

hope this helps !!!

Calvinists, if they existed during Pentecost, would have said that Pentecost was just another day in the office.

 

[DavidTree]

OT saints were saved by faith
NT saints are saved by faith.

The difference is NT saints are born again having the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Pentecost was a one time event when the church was born and the Holy Spirit was that sign as per Acts 2 and Jesus teloing His disciples to wait until that day when the Holy Spirit would be in them and be another Helper for them forever.

hope this helps !!!

The disciples in the upper room waiting as commanded by the LORD was a "one-time' event.

Impossible for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to be a "one time" event as no one else would be receiving today!!!

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not automatically given when a person receives CHRIST/Salvation.
i meet christians all the time who have not received the Baptism in/of the Holy Spirit
Their pastors tell them it was "automatic" = which is the error of Baptist man-made theology.

Please read Acts again - thank you = Acts 2:14-21

Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, lifted up his voice, and addressed the crowd: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words.
These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day!
No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
Even on My menservants and maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
The sun will be turned to darkness,
and the moon to blood,
before the coming of the great and glorious Day of the Lord.
And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

 

[DavidTree]

Huh? Jesus never promoted pride. Read Rom 11:9 and tell me what Paul said about the downfall of non-believing Jews.

(Rom 11:9) “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a recompense to them.”

JESUS is the One who Says: "Salvation is of the Jews"

The "prideful" Jews rejected the Salvation promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Equally "prideful" Gentiles also reject: "Salvation is of the Jews"

When a Gentile is Saved by Grace, God place them where.....???

 

[synergy]

JESUS is the One who Says: "Salvation is of the Jews"

The "prideful" Jews rejected the Salvation promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Equally "prideful" Gentiles also reject: "Salvation is of the Jews"

When a Gentile is Saved by Grace, God place them where.....???

Read Eph 2:6. The Church of Ephesus overwhelmingly contained believing Gentiles. Are you a Judaizer?

(Eph 2:6) raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

 

[DavidTree]

Read Eph 2:6. The Church of Ephesus overwhelmingly contained believing Gentiles. Are you a Judaizer?

(Eph 2:6) raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Christ Jesus is the Jewish MESSIAH = you have been adopted into a Jewish Family

A 'judaizer' is a person who attempts to please God thru the OT law of Moses = very bad