The Issue of Limited Atonement

[DavidTree]

First of all, do tell us how anyone can possibly be saved before the Cross and Pentecost ever happened?

In Isaiah 12:2, the “salvation” in view is covenantal, futuristic deliverance, not New-Covenant regeneration or indwelling of the Spirit. The context is Israel’s future restoration after judgment (Isa 11–12), where God saves His people by rescuing them from exile, oppression, and divine wrath, restoring them to covenant blessing and peace, something God brings to them externally (“the LORD is my strength and my song; He has become my salvation”), producing trust and joy, but it does not describe the inward realities later revealed in the gospel (new birth, sealing of the Spirit, union with Christ). In other words, Isaiah 12:2 celebrates YHWH as the faithful covenant Deliverer of Israel, a real and gracious "salvation", yet one that anticipates the fuller, internal, Spirit-indwelt salvation accomplished and revealed in Christ under the New Covenant.

You imposed false doctrine upon "It is written".

LISTEN to CHRIST:

Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?
For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living.

You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

 

[Jim]

@Jim

Galatians 4:6​

“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”

Faith in God is the fundamental prerequisite for all aspects of salvation.

 

[DavidTree]

We will all wait in Paradise until Christ returns. It is only after that and the judgment that any will proceed on to heaven.

The sacrifice of Christ on the cross was applied retroactively to all OT saints (Rom 5:12-21)

When CHRIST shed His Blood for the sins of the world, the spirits of the OT saints who believed the WORD of GOD, ascended to Heaven after Christ Ascended and placed His Blood on the Mercy Seat in HEAVEN = read Hebrews chapter 9

Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are [k]copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

[DavidTree]

Regeneration is not a matter of the flesh but rather of the spirit.

The souls of the saints are in Heaven now/Today and are SEEN in Heaven praising God in Revelation.

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

 

[brightfame52]

Regeneration is not a matter of the flesh but rather of the spirit.

Yes it is, in that anyone unregenerate are classified as being in the flesh and cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Faith pleases God Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The only way to not be in the flesh is for the Spirit to be in you Rom 8:9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Regeneration is not a matter of the flesh but rather of the spirit.

Before regeneration mans spirit is dead to God in Spiritual affairs, hence when regenerated God gives a new spirit Ezk 36 26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[synergy]

You imposed false doctrine upon "It is written".

LISTEN to CHRIST:

Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?
For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living.

You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

So you still have no answer as to how anyone can possibly be saved before the Cross and Pentecost ever happened?

Also, I see that you're no longer promoting Isaiah 12:2 because that verse is not talking about New-Covenant regeneration, the salvific indwelling of the Spirit.

As for Mark 12:24–27, it is grounded in what Jesus was about to accomplish. That's the context whether you like it or not. When Jesus says God is “not the God of the dead, but of the living", He is proving that the OT Saints are alive to God but that their future life depends on the redemptive work He Himself was to accomplish through the Cross. The actual securing of their salvation required Christ’s victory over sin and death through the Cross and the life-giving power of the Spirit poured out afterward at Pentecost.

 

[FreeInChrist]

@Jim



So Abraham wasnt righteous before God at the time scripture declared here Gen 15:6

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Since Christ had not yet died, this declaration of being righteous was yet in the future.

But Enoch was considered righteous and was taken by God.... long before Christ.

But Elijah was considered righteous and was taken to God in a whirlwind... long before Christ.

So your logic is not logical.

 

[DavidTree]

So you still have no answer as to how anyone can possibly be saved before the Cross and Pentecost ever happened? .

GOD is the Answer to How we are Saved = Beginning in Genesis

Believe CHRIST
John 4:22 - You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.


Salvation belongs to the LORD. Your blessing is upon Your people. Selah - Psalm 3:8

Psalm 51 - David's prayer after he sinned with Bathsheba

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
9Hide Your face from my sins,
And blot out all my iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners shall be converted to You.

Jonah 2:9
When my soul fainted within me,
I remembered the Lord;
And my prayer went up to You,
Into Your holy temple.
“Those who regard worthless idols
Forsake their own Mercy.
But I will sacrifice to You
With the voice of thanksgiving;
I will pay what I have vowed.
Salvation is of the Lord.”

 

[FreeInChrist]

So you still have no answer as to how anyone can possibly be saved before the Cross and Pentecost ever happened?

How? Good grief man. Our heavenly Father can do whatever he wants including changing things as time moves on such as perhaps the Cross and Pentecost were a dividing point. Certainly the crucifixion was such a point.

When the Hebraic Jews were God's chosen and Jesus was sent back for them I believe they had their own litmus test to salvation. Just my opinion. Questions to answer ... Was Enoch saved? Was Elijah saved? Was even Job saved? We are not of them.... we have the four corners of the Holy Bible as out text book to learn from. I just dont thing your question can be answered

 

[synergy]

GOD is the Answer to How we are Saved = Beginning in Genesis

Believe CHRIST
John 4:22 - You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

So you're saying that you need to believe that "salvation is of the Jews" to be saved before the Cross or Pentecost ever happened. Got it!

 

[synergy]

How? Good grief man. Our heavenly Father can do whatever he wants including changing things as time moves on such as perhaps the Cross and Pentecost were a dividing point. Certainly the crucifixion was such a point.

When the Hebraic Jews were God's chosen and Jesus was sent back for them I believe they had their own litmus test to salvation. Just my opinion. Questions to answer ... Was Enoch saved? Was Elijah saved? Was even Job saved? We are not of them.... we have the four corners of the Holy Bible as out text book to learn from. I just dont thing your question can be answered

You're saying that Enoch and Elijah were already saved in OT times without any need of the Cross nor Pentecost? That's what Muslims say all the time.

 

[FreeInChrist]

You're saying that Enoch and Elijah were already saved in OT times without any need of the Cross nor Pentecost? That's what Muslims say all the time.

Well God took them or ET beamed them up... Would God have taken them if they were not saved? No tombs. No bodies unless left in the desert for buzzard food?

Now I have a question for you.

Personally I believe the only people who were predestined were those that God had need of for what ever he had need of... Like the prophets, like Jeremiah.... like Job... Like Moses.... LikeAdam... like Noah and whomever else.... Other then Judas, can you believe that God would have chosen people for a work and not had their salvation at his beck and call for them? I dont.

People had to be an example for us. People had to prophsy. Someone had to do as Judas did because
that was all planned out... But I can tell you He never chose me for any special work. He did allow me free will.... see I believe there is both ...

 

[Jim]

Yes it is, in that anyone unregenerate are classified as being in the flesh and cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

I think the context there of pleasing God means pleasing God perfectly never displeasing Him in any way. I do not believe that the unregenerate mother who loves, cares for, and nurses her baby is something that displeases God.

 

[Jim]

Before regeneration mans spirit is dead to God in Spiritual affairs, hence when regenerated God gives a new spirit Ezk 36 26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

That is a prophecy of the New Covenant to come. It came with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It was inaugurated for the living at Pentecost following Jesus' ascension to be seated at the right hand of the Father.

 

[brightfame52]

I think the context there of pleasing God means pleasing God perfectly never displeasing Him in any way. I do not believe that the unregenerate mother who loves, cares for, and nurses her baby is something that displeases God.

Again Them who be in the flesh [the unregenerate] cant please God

 

[brightfame52]

That is a prophecy of the New Covenant to come.

It doesnt matter, its about Salvation.

 

[DavidTree]

So you're saying that you need to believe that "salvation is of the Jews" to be saved before the Cross or Pentecost ever happened. Got it!

So you reject the CLEAR words of the LORD Jesus Christ!!!

BEST for you to pray and ask the LORD to grant you understanding.

 

[synergy]

So you reject the CLEAR words of the LORD Jesus Christ!!!

BEST for you to pray and ask the LORD to grant you understanding.

The pride of the Jews came before their fall.

(Rom 11:9) “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a recompense to them.”

The very blessings and privileges Israel enjoyed—symbolized by “their table” (their covenant status, the Law, temple worship, spiritual heritage)—became the very thing that led many of them to stumble. Instead of those gifts leading them to recognize the Messiah, they relied on their pride and rejected Him. So what should have been a place of nourishment and fellowship with God they turned into a trap, bringing judgment to themselves. Their rejection of Christ turned their blessings into grounds for spiritual hardening, fulfilling what the Scriptures had already foretold.

 

[synergy]

Well God took them or ET beamed them up... Would God have taken them if they were not saved? No tombs. No bodies unless left in the desert for buzzard food?

You don't see any value whatsoever for the Cross or for Pentecost?

Now I have a question for you.

Personally I believe the only people who were predestined were those that God had need of for what ever he had need of... Like the prophets, like Jeremiah.... like Job... Like Moses.... LikeAdam... like Noah and whomever else.... Other then Judas, can you believe that God would have chosen people for a work and not had their salvation at his beck and call for them? I dont.

Whoever believes in Christ is predestined to be confirmed to Christ's Image. They are the predestined ones.

People had to be an example for us. People had to prophsy. Someone had to do as Judas did because
that was all planned out... But I can tell you He never chose me for any special work. He did allow me free will.... see I believe there is both ...

I never cease to be amazed at how God vocationally elects people to spread the faith. Who would have thought that scattered Greek-speaking Jews, with their Greek LXX OT, would take on a major role in the spread of Christianity across Europe when they came to faith in Christ. Keep the faith.

 

[Red Baker]

@Jim @FreeInChrist @DavidTree

Faith in God is the fundamental prerequisite for all aspects of salvation.

Not all, if the scriptures are rightly divided per 2nd Timothy 2:15, not even close being prerequisite from fallen man's state.

1. In the "legal" phase of our salvation from sin and condemnation, only the faith and obedience of our surety is the require payment, along with his death and resurrection ~ so many scriptures could be provided for this and which I have many times over.

2. I would agree in the "practical" phase of one's salvation, yes, faith is prerequisite, along with water baptism, and walking blameless in God's commandment, etc., etc.

We have provided scriptures with examples of this over and over, to you and to our sister @FreeInChrist, over many years since when we first met in or around seventeen years ago.

Remember asking Paul the question when he was saved?

Paul said he was saved before the world began (2nd Timothy 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (1st Timothy 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (1st Timothy 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Romans 13:11).

So there, Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

I'm leaving shortly to go out of town to meet with some brethren to learn more of this Great LORD GOD who planned our great salvation before the world ever was created