The Issue of Limited Atonement

[Jim]

Where in the world do you see that I am for Total Depravity as I always preach against Calvin and Tulip... Do I sound like I do with these posts?

Sorry, @FreeInChrist, I did not intend that you were for Total Depravity.

My point was that those who do ascribe to Total Depravity are forced therefore to interpret the whole rest of scripture in such a way as to support Total Depravity. The entire soteriology of the Calvinist starts there. You can see that as it shows up here in this forum. And without Total Depravity, the entire doctrine represented by TULIP falls flat on its face.

 

[synergy]

Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5 22 also Rom 8:8 applies to the unregenerate no matter in OT or NT. So in order for Enoch to have pleased God and have Faith Heb 11:5 he as any other fallen child of Adam had to be regenerated by the Spirit first in order to please God. If OT Enoch pleased God with Faith without first being regenerated, that would contradict the Spirits teaching in Rom 8:8

The fact that Paul in Rom 8:8 is warning his believing audience against choosing to be in the flesh rather than being in the Spirit is a contradiction against Enoch pleasing God with faith? How so, pray tell.

 

[brightfame52]

The fact that Paul in Rom 8:8 is warning his believing audience against choosing to be in the flesh rather than being in the Spirit is a contradiction against Enoch pleasing God with faith? How so, pray tell.

It doesn't matter. Believers may at times walk after the flesh and carnality, but they still not in the flesh as Vs 9 states because they still have the Spirit.

But them in the flesh unregenrate are in a much worse condition, they dont have the Spirit period. Even in their most religious and pious behaviour they are in the flesh. A believer, when they act carnally its generally being selfishness, bickering and so forth, So yall dont have a leg to stand on. A carnal believer who is regenerated can never be in the flesh because of the indwelling Spirit. And a unregenerate person can never ever be in the Spirit Rom 8:9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[brightfame52]

Where does it say that God gave them the power to believe???

How else can they believe in Christ ? Jn 6:44,65 they couldnt do it by their own ability apart from the drawing power of the Father.

 

[charismaticlady]

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the SECOND Promise of the FATHER

FYI: No one can receive the Second Promise of the FATHER until they first receive the FIRST Promise.

What is the First Promise of the FATHER???

CLUE = you will find the First Promise declared in Genesis chapter 3

So in Genesis chapter 3, this goes along with what I was thinking in 1 John 3:8-9

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The Holy Spirit will not enter a filthy vessel; that goes for a sin nature also. That is why Jesus takes away the past sin out of our nature making us new creatures that we may partake of the divine nature of God. For a born again Christian that means we do not commit present and future sins either. 1 John 1:9 is how to become a Christian, not a get out of hell free card to be used over and over every time we sin. What sin? Sins unto death.

As we walk in the Spirit the blood of Jesus continues to cleanse sin, but they are unintentional and are called sins not unto death. This is where the RCC beats out Protestants on this truth. They call the two types of sins mortal and venial. It is the mortal sins that Jesus takes out of our nature. He then, and the Finisher of our faith, matures the fruit of the Spirit where immature fruit causes unintentional sins not unto death. Protestant's theology is "sin is sin" and remain ignorant of how God sees sin.

 

[brightfame52]

Enoch pleasing God with faith?

Yeah he had to be regenerated. He was a Prophet according to Jude 1:14-15

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

He prophesied of the second coming. Peter wrote the OT Prophets had the Spirit of Christ in them 1 Pet 1:10-11

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

If one has the Spirit of Christ in them they are in the Spirit and belong to Christ Rom 8:9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Are you going to deny that Enoch had the Spirit of Christ in him?

 

[synergy]

Yeah he had to be regenerated. He was a Prophet according to Jude 1:14-15

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

He prophesied of the second coming. Peter wrote the OT Prophets had the Spirit of Christ in them 1 Pet 1:10-11

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

If one has the Spirit of Christ in them they are in the Spirit and belong to Christ Rom 8:9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Are you going to deny that Enoch had the Spirit of Christ in him?

Why did you stop short of 1 Pet 1:12??? Are you going to deny that verse also???

(1Pe 1:12) To them it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us, they ministered the things which are now reported to you by those who have preached the gospel to you in the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

In 1 Peter 1:12, Peter is saying that the Old Testament prophets were shown by God that the things they wrote about (the coming Messiah and salvation) were not mainly for their own time but for future believers. What the Prophets predicted has now been clearly explained through the preaching of the gospel by those empowered by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven during Pentecost. In other words, the regeneration that Christians now profoundly experience is the fulfillment of what the OT Prophets prophesied.

Furthermore, Peter does not say the OT Prophets were regenerated. He does not say they had new-covenant union with Christ. He says the Spirit of Christ was in them for revelation and testimony. The Spirit’s OT role was prophetic, not soteriological. The Cross had not happened yet. This opens the door for someone like Enoch to have the Spirit’s testimony without possessing regeneration as later defined.

Regeneration is explicitly tied to the New Covenant. Regeneration is not just “having the Spirit around” — it is: A new heart, Permanent indwelling, Union with the risen Christ, Participation in fulfilled redemption. Ezekiel 36 proves that regeneration is a future covenant promise.

 

[synergy]

It doesn't matter. Believers may at times walk after the flesh and carnality, but they still not in the flesh as Vs 9 states because they still have the Spirit.

You continue to avoid verse 13 like the plague. They are in the Spirit only as long as they choose not to be in the flesh. Stop spewing out falsehoods.

(Rom 8:13) For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

 

[synergy]

How else can they believe in Christ ?

Through the word of God, through the Bible preached. If you didn't come to faith through the Bible or through someone's preaching then how did you come to faith in Christ???

Rom 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

Why did you stop short of 1 Pet 1:12??? Are you going to deny that verse also???

As far as Im concerned I made my case from scripture to show your lack of understanding.

 

[brightfame52]

You continue to avoid verse 13 like the plague. They are in the Spirit only as long as they choose not to be in the flesh. Stop spewing out falsehoods.

(Rom 8:13) For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

I made my case, you dont have a leg to stand on

 

[brightfame52]

Through the word of God, through the Bible preached. If you didn't come to faith through the Bible or through someone's preaching then how did you come to faith in Christ???

No they cant.

 

[Red Baker]

@synery @FreeInChrist @Jim @civic @brightfame52

Why did you stop short of 1 Pet 1:12??? Are you going to deny that verse also???

(1Pe 1:12) To them it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us, they ministered the things which are now reported to you by those who have preached the gospel to you in the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

In 1 Peter 1:12, Peter is saying that the Old Testament prophets were shown by God that the things they wrote about (the coming Messiah and salvation) were not mainly for their own time but for future believers. What the Prophets predicted has now been clearly explained through the preaching of the gospel by those empowered by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven during Pentecost. In other words, the regeneration that Christians now profoundly experience is the fulfillment of what the OT Prophets prophesied.

Furthermore, Peter does not say the OT Prophets were regenerated. He does not say they had new-covenant union with Christ. He says the Spirit of Christ was in them for revelation and testimony. The Spirit’s OT role was prophetic, not soteriological. The Cross had not happened yet. This opens the door for someone like Enoch to have the Spirit’s testimony without possessing regeneration as later defined.

I'm not going to keep going on this subject since I have a lot going on with helping a new body of believers to get started in a new location. The whole month of March is just about taken up since I will be doing all of the services during that month for them just to help them out. My times and services are always freely given, and always will be.

I will say that @synergy, to his credit gave the best reference in support of the position that is being considered at the moment. He has more "sound of the words/bites" on his side, then any one as of yet has given, and that's was worthy of my time and why I thought I need to address his post.

Though the sound bites are here for the taken to support that position, we must practice using all of the word of God, here a little, and there a little, because we all know that the scriptures are one cohesive whole, teaching the same truth on any given subject throughout them.

Why then does he say that the fathers inquired, as though they possessed not what is now offered to us? The answer to this is plain, that salvation is to be taken here for that clear manifestation of it which we have through the coming of Christ. The words of Peter mean no other thing than those of Christ, when he said:

Matthew 13:17​

“For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.”

To think that OT saints of the OT were not born of the Spirit, is as I said above ~ “preposterous/absurd”. The Lord Jesus said MANY righteous OT saints desired to see what we see, yet were not able to see and to hear what we have heard and were not able to do so, some did, many did not. Abraham and a few did see, understand and rejoice.

John 8:56​

“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.”

What is the meaning of saints? In the word of God, a saint is not an exceptionally holy or canonized person, but rather "ANY" believer in God's words who has been set apart (sanctified) for God purpose and use.

It is a word that has been used from the very beginning of the scriptures~Enoch, the seventh from Adam used it.

Jude 1:14​

“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”..

If Saints, then born of His Spirit and made holy by grace alone through the Redeemer, Jesus Christ. There are many scriptures in the OT which speaks of God's saints, here are just a very few of them: Job 5:1; Psalms 16:3; 50:5; 89:7; 116:15; 132:16; 149:9 and Proverbs 2:8.

I could keep going, but enough for now. My points shown were made very clear, unless one is married to their biased opinion.

 

[brightfame52]

To think that OT saints of the OT were not born of the Spirit, is as I said above ~ “preposterous/absurd”. The Lord Jesus said MANY righteous OT saints desired to see what we see, yet were not able to see and to hear what we have heard and were not able to do so, some did, many did not. Abraham and a few did see, understand and rejoice.

John 8:56​

“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.”

Just think, the Saint that wrote the first five books of the scripture, Moses he was unregenerate lol

 

[FreeInChrist]

@Jim... this is what I wrote in that other link.

@Red Baker,

I’ve been following your interaction with @civic in the Limited Atonement thread, and you raised an important theological claim that I think deserves its own focused discussion.

You stated that it would be “preposterous/absurd” to suggest that the saints of the Old Testament acted in faith apart from being born again ~ that the Spirit of God must have already regenerated them in order for them to do what Hebrews 11 records.

Rather than continue that discussion inside another thread, I wanted to open a separate space specifically on this question:

Were Old Testament saints regenerated (born again) in the same sense as New Covenant believers?

Before we go further, I want to clarify something about my own position.

I do not deny predestination. I fully believe that certain individuals — such as Jeremiah, the prophets, the apostles, and others — were set apart by God for specific purposes in redemptive history (Jeremiah 1:5 being an obvious example).


However, I do not automatically conclude from that language that;

1. Every believer in the Old Testament was regenerated in the New Covenant sense, or

2.That faith itself was irresistibly infused rather than responsively exercised.

Hebrews 11 repeatedly says “by faith” ~ it presents their faith as active trust in response to God’s revealed word. The text does not explicitly state they were born again prior to believing.

So my question is simple and sincere:

What is the biblical basis for asserting that regeneration preceded faith in the Old Testament?

I’m not looking for a heated exchange .....just clarity on how you see Scripture supporting that claim.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Then I made the next reply to Red's question.

@Red Baker For clarity, I was referring to certain individuals being set apart for specific roles or service in redemptive history (such as Jeremiah in Jer 1:5), not making a statement about how anyone is saved from sin.

Where in the world do you see that I am for Total Depravity as I always preach against Calvin and Tulip... Do I sound like I do with these posts?

Especially as I am opposite Red in this thread and will not address him in this or any other of his reduced tulip points

 

[FreeInChrist]

@synery @FreeInChrist @Jim @civic @brightfame52

I'm not going to keep going on this subject since I have a lot going on with helping a new body of believers to get started in a new location. The whole month of March is just about taken up since I will be doing all of the services during that month for them just to help them out. My times and services are always freely given, and always will be.

I will say that @synergy, to his credit gave the best reference in support of the position that is being considered at the moment. He has more "sound of the words/bites" on his side, then any one as of yet has given, and that's was worthy of my time and why I thought I need to address his post.

Though the sound bites are here for the taken to support that position, we must practice using all of the word of God, here a little, and there a little, because we all know that the scriptures are one cohesive whole, teaching the same truth on any given subject throughout them.

Why then does he say that the fathers inquired, as though they possessed not what is now offered to us? The answer to this is plain, that salvation is to be taken here for that clear manifestation of it which we have through the coming of Christ. The words of Peter mean no other thing than those of Christ, when he said:

Matthew 13:17​

“For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.”

To think that OT saints of the OT were not born of the Spirit, is as I said above ~ “preposterous/absurd”. The Lord Jesus said MANY righteous OT saints desired to see what we see, yet were not able to see and to hear what we have heard and were not able to do so, some did, many did not. Abraham and a few did see, understand and rejoice.

John 8:56​

“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.”

What is the meaning of saints? In the word of God, a saint is not an exceptionally holy or canonized person, but rather "ANY" believer in God's words who has been set apart (sanctified) for God purpose and use.

It is a word that has been used from the very beginning of the scriptures~Enoch, the seventh from Adam used it.

Jude 1:14​

“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”..

If Saints, then born of His Spirit and made holy by grace alone through the Redeemer, Jesus Christ. There are many scriptures in the OT which speaks of God's saints, here are just a very few of them: Job 5:1; Psalms 16:3; 50:5; 89:7; 116:15; 132:16; 149:9 and Proverbs 2:8.

I could keep going, but enough for now. My point show be made very clear, unless one is married to their biased opinion.

I appreciate that because I alreay pulled away from this and you here. I was majorly scammed yesterday and my mind is not on proper debate... I dont even know it you replied in the thread debate I started naming you there.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Sorry, @FreeInChrist, I did not intend that you were for Total Depravity.

My point was that those who do ascribe to Total Depravity are forced therefore to interpret the whole rest of scripture in such a way as to support Total Depravity. The entire soteriology of the Calvinist starts there. You can see that as it shows up here in this forum. And without Total Depravity, the entire doctrine represented by TULIP falls flat on its face.

Sorry Jim, I may have sent this a second time to you... I had a horrible experience yesterday and my mind is not as it should be... A computer scam beyond belief....

 

[Red Baker]

@synery @FreeInChrist @Jim @civic @brightfame52

Galatians 4:28,29​

“Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.”

Isaac's birth was a perfect type of "ALL" of the children of God's promises ~ he was born after the Spirit, and apart from the Spirit causing Isaac's birth, it would have never taken place.

Yes, Nicodemus should have known about the new birth from the OT scriptures ~ yet, it was not in God perfect timing for him to know, so we could have John 3:1-8, to help us to see clearly, that the new birth is a birth "only" by the Spirit of God to all of the children of God's promises, and apart from the Spirit causing us to be born again, then it would have never have taken place, impossible. Just as Sarah could not had given birth to Isaac at such an old age because of the DEADNESS of her womb, just as all of us were dead spiritual speaking and nothing less than the power of God could have resurrected us from that state in which we born into.

 

[Jim]

If Saints, then born of His Spirit and made holy by grace alone through the Redeemer, Jesus Christ. There are many scriptures in the OT which speaks of God's saints, here are just a very few of them: Job 5:1; Psalms 16:3; 50:5; 89:7; 116:15; 132:16; 149:9 and Proverbs 2:8.

Good morning, Red.

I am not trying to enter the discussion generally, but I must point out that what you have presented is false logic. The argument you have used is similar to the argument, "A dog is an animal with four legs, a cow has four legs and is an animal, therefore a cow is a dog". It is false logic. It is an illogical argument.

We know that the NT saints are those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. By your argument that means that the OT saints must have accepted Jesus as the Son of God and their Lord and Savior. The OT saints did not even know of Jesus.

 

[synergy]

As far as Im concerned I made my case from scripture to show your lack of understanding.

Your deliberate and ongoing redaction of 1 Pet 1:12 in your comments proves that you are intent on spewing out heresies irregardless of what the word of God says. Strike 1!

I made my case, you dont have a leg to stand on

More trolling from you. You are stigmatizing verse 13 as a leg I'm not able to stand on. Verse 13 proves that Believers are in the Spirit only as long as they choose not to be in the flesh. Stop spewing out falsehoods. Strike 2!

No they cant.

You're denigrading the power of the word of God. You are plainly contradicting Rom 10:8-13. This proves more than anything else that you are here to spew out falsehoods. If you didn't come to faith through the Bible or through someone's preaching then how did you come to faith in Christ??? Strike 3! Yerrrrrrrrrrrrr OUT!!!!!!!!!