"Alive without the law once" simply describes his sin-free condition at a young age before he even had the intellectual capability to know and understand even the existence of God's law. When the commandment came describes that point of time in his life that he became cognizant of God and God's law and in disobedience committed a sin against God. It was only when he was old enough to know and understand the importance and truth of God and God's law.
The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
But none of that even suggests that regeneration precedes faith. It simply describes the inner conflict that we all, even the unregenerate, face every day of our lives. Are you really trying to tell me that the unregenerate cannot know right from wrong and be concerned about doing wrong?
The whole point of that passage of scripture is summarized in verses 7:24-8:1 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Both the believer and the unbeliever are faced with the inner conflicts of doing what is right.
I think you are interjecting some confusion with your reference to "the old man" and "the new man". Paul is not saying that in regeneration we had added "the new man" to our being so that we exist as both an old man and a new man. Rather, in being born again we get a new nature. Our nature is changed. It is not perfected, but it is renewed.
2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
brightfame52
Active Member
What does that even mean? So no one in the OT before Jesus Christ could know right from wrong from a principle of love to God?
I think the likes of Noah, Abraham, Jacob and a lot of others might just think you are nuts.
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
@Jim @FreeInChrist
Jim, Romans 7:18 proves this to any person who is a lover of God's truth and is not married to his/her biased position. @FreeInChrist should be willing to consider this if she truly believes she is free in Christ, or Christ's obedience and faith alone for her righteousness.
"My flesh"~ This is the old man, the part of our nature from our first birth, that still only loves sin. If you can identify this man and analyze him, you know he loves sin and hates godliness. This ugly and perverse part of each child of God will be left behind at the hour of death!
"Dwelleth no good thing" ~There is no good thing in our flesh, for even when it appears good, it has secret and deceitful sinful motives! This is true of every person born of the flesh. Every action in the flesh is always tainted or dominated by sinful motives.
Jim, even that which is needful for us to do, (such as plowing, providing for our own, if not done by faith toward God for his blessings and approval and for his glory and honour, is sin; and Jim, faith is the fruit of the new man, not the old.
Is only true of one born of the Spirit. A lost person is happy as a pig in mud living by the instinct of his sinful flesh! Out of their element of living by the flesh, they are as fearful and miserable as a fish out of water. I tis easy for a child of God to get into the flesh, it is impossible for a child of Adam to get into the Spirit, without first being quickened by the Spirit of God.
Festus Jim; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.”
Time will not allow me to continue on this subject, but would love to do so later, maybe @FreeInChrist can start a thread on this subject. I must move on, have a lot of catching up to do.
I included @FreeInChrist for her agreement with you.
Jim, Romans 7:18 proves this to any person who is a lover of God's truth and is not married to his/her biased position. @FreeInChrist should be willing to consider this if she truly believes she is free in Christ, or Christ's obedience and faith alone for her righteousness.
Romans 7:18
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”"My flesh"~ This is the old man, the part of our nature from our first birth, that still only loves sin. If you can identify this man and analyze him, you know he loves sin and hates godliness. This ugly and perverse part of each child of God will be left behind at the hour of death!
"Dwelleth no good thing" ~There is no good thing in our flesh, for even when it appears good, it has secret and deceitful sinful motives! This is true of every person born of the flesh. Every action in the flesh is always tainted or dominated by sinful motives.
Proverbs 21:4
“An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.”Jim, even that which is needful for us to do, (such as plowing, providing for our own, if not done by faith toward God for his blessings and approval and for his glory and honour, is sin; and Jim, faith is the fruit of the new man, not the old.
Jim, the unregenerate do not have these conflicts mentioned here, I find it so strange that a man of your age and wisdom, who has given himself over to know the truth would even think these things mention here, that the wicked experience the same as a child of God does, who has the two nature warring against each other. The lost only have the flesh, and knows nothing of the striving of the Spirit seeking to rule on his rightful throne...our hearts/affections, etc.
Galatians 5:17
“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”Is only true of one born of the Spirit. A lost person is happy as a pig in mud living by the instinct of his sinful flesh! Out of their element of living by the flesh, they are as fearful and miserable as a fish out of water. I tis easy for a child of God to get into the flesh, it is impossible for a child of Adam to get into the Spirit, without first being quickened by the Spirit of God.
What I am saying is this, and nothing more or less: "One cannot do spiritual acts pleasing to God, acceptable unto him, and that will be rewarded by God in the world to come."
Jim, this may very well may be true, but for reasons that serves one's the flesh and for his advantage, and profit, not for reasons of pleasing God. I see this all of the times from them that are still in flesh and have no true fear of God before their eyes.
No most noble Jim, I'm speaking forth words of truth and soberness.
Acts 26:25
“But he said, I am not mad, most nobleYou are losing your nobleness with me...Jim, what in the world are you saying~Jim our old nature is NOT changed, it is daily perishing and soon shall forever perish!
2nd Corinthians 4:16
“For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.”Time will not allow me to continue on this subject, but would love to do so later, maybe @FreeInChrist can start a thread on this subject. I must move on, have a lot of catching up to do.
@Jim
Alive once without the law~Paul thought himself alive, in a justifying way, before he learned God condemned his lusts. When sin is dead in the sense just given (7:8), then a person thinks himself alive before God. Though Paul had Moses’ Law from birth, he did not grasp the strict prohibition against lust until after Acts nine~and then he died!
I will only say this for now: No such person has ever existed except Jesus Christ.
Alive once without the law~Paul thought himself alive, in a justifying way, before he learned God condemned his lusts. When sin is dead in the sense just given (7:8), then a person thinks himself alive before God. Though Paul had Moses’ Law from birth, he did not grasp the strict prohibition against lust until after Acts nine~and then he died!
It wouldn't help. It doesn't make sense.
Regeneration is unique to the New Covenant. It is one of the significant differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
@FreeInChrist
You said: "That conclusion must be brought to the text rather than drawn from it."
Romans 7:18 is one of many scriptures that supports God's testimony that the new birth must first take place before faith and other fruits of the Spirit can be performed.
Are you going to go against Jesus Christ's teachings? Of course you will, in order to defend your biased opinion, which seems to be more precious to you than truth. We shall see.
Romans 7:18 can be used to prove a true biblical doctrine that the flesh has "no" good thing, such as the power to do spiritual acts pleasing to God, which can and should be used to teach that a new nature must be given in order for anyone to do acts pleasing to God and that is acceptable unto Him.
You said: "That conclusion must be brought to the text rather than drawn from it."
Romans 7:18 is one of many scriptures that supports God's testimony that the new birth must first take place before faith and other fruits of the Spirit can be performed.
John 3:3
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”Are you going to go against Jesus Christ's teachings? Of course you will, in order to defend your biased opinion, which seems to be more precious to you than truth. We shall see.
There is no change in the flesh in regeneration. The flesh is still there after regeneration. It is only the spirit that is changed. Before regeneration the spirit of a man is dead in his sins and trespasses (Eph 2:1); upon regeneration, the spirit is renewed, born again, as it was when first given by God. that is why it is call born again or regenerated. The flesh is still there unchanged. That which is born of flesh is flesh; that which is born of Spirit is spirit.
I think what you are talking about is Sanctification not Regeneration.
That is a false concept that derives from the false doctrine of Total Depravity.
God said "honor your mother and your faither". So when an unbeliever honors his mother and father God is not pleased? Or perhaps you do not regard that as a "spiritual act". I think you are very wrong in all of that.
Have you ever known anyone, born again or not, who did not do something or even much for the reason that serves his flesh and for his advantage and profit.
One's nature of sinning does not change instantaneously in being regenerated. It changes with time. That is what sanctification is all about. Your view of regeneration before faith has you vastly confused and given you a tendency to terribly misunderstand so much of the word of God concerning soteriology.
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Can you explain what you think it means to "see the kingdom of God". Is it see as in visually discern the kingdom?
I think Jesus explains verse 3 in elaborating a bit more in verse 5. Born again is further explained by born of water and Spirit while to see the kingdom is further explained by enter the kingdom. I think to "see" the kingdom is to experience, to enjoy, to partake, to enter the kingdom.
I do not think that to see the kingdom means to conceive, to know about, to contemplate, to imagine, to think about the kingdom. Such is not any sort of instantaneous result of being born again.
@Jim
Jim, "to see" the kingdom of God is to have spiritual insight/understanding, even though it may be with very little light, as was the case with Nicodemus, yet his spirit was convinced that God was with Christ by his miracles, which miracles he confess was done by God working through him, much more light than his fellow Pharisees, who with an evil spirit, contributed the miracles done by Christ to Beelzebub, the prince of the devils.
A scripture that would go along with this would be:
Nicodemus, with his child like confession, which confession is as good any person that is posting on this forum, or in any place of worship in this world then and now, proved that he had the mind of Christ, or a new nature that did not count the things of God as foolishness, as many other Pharisees did~even though with very little knowledge, yet his humble confession proved that he did, see, and came to the true source to confess his faith, even though with very little knowledge of the truth. Yet Christ, never rejected a bruised reed or a smoking flax~or, wherever he saw spiritual life. Neither shall we, if we are following Christ and his word.
So, I'll close with this:
Which proves by Jesus' very own teaching, the new birth must proceed seeing, hearing and believing! Btw, why did our Lord used the double verily? For one reason Jim, he knew that "very few would accept" what he was about to reveal, that the new birth must proceed the gift to see!
Thank you you blessed God in heaven for allowing us to grasp a hold of this truth, for without thee we too would have never seen this blessed truth hidden in the word of God, yet revealed unto babes who come to the word of God with a humble spirit to be taught by thee. And all of God's children said AMEN and AMEN.
The context of John 3:2 gives us insight as to what it means to "see".
John 3:2
“The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.”Jim, "to see" the kingdom of God is to have spiritual insight/understanding, even though it may be with very little light, as was the case with Nicodemus, yet his spirit was convinced that God was with Christ by his miracles, which miracles he confess was done by God working through him, much more light than his fellow Pharisees, who with an evil spirit, contributed the miracles done by Christ to Beelzebub, the prince of the devils.
A scripture that would go along with this would be:
1st Corinthians 2:14
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”Nicodemus, with his child like confession, which confession is as good any person that is posting on this forum, or in any place of worship in this world then and now, proved that he had the mind of Christ, or a new nature that did not count the things of God as foolishness, as many other Pharisees did~even though with very little knowledge, yet his humble confession proved that he did, see, and came to the true source to confess his faith, even though with very little knowledge of the truth. Yet Christ, never rejected a bruised reed or a smoking flax~or, wherever he saw spiritual life. Neither shall we, if we are following Christ and his word.
Isaiah 42:3
“A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.”So, I'll close with this:
John 3:3
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”Which proves by Jesus' very own teaching, the new birth must proceed seeing, hearing and believing! Btw, why did our Lord used the double verily? For one reason Jim, he knew that "very few would accept" what he was about to reveal, that the new birth must proceed the gift to see!
Thank you you blessed God in heaven for allowing us to grasp a hold of this truth, for without thee we too would have never seen this blessed truth hidden in the word of God, yet revealed unto babes who come to the word of God with a humble spirit to be taught by thee. And all of God's children said AMEN and AMEN.
@civic
Such an heart is form God's grace, not by man's works! I could heap many such scriptures upon you, but why do so, if you will not receive one? But one more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established as true.
I now will go and answer you other post concerning no one was born again in the OT~ a position any child of God should know is false. To me it is amazing anyone would make such a claim, only those who think the new birth is not necessary for one to inherit eternal life, nor is it necessary before one can do mighty acts of faith such as is recorded in Hebrew eleven, all done by folk not yet born again would make such a preposterous/absurd statement.
You are a very confused person. In the OT it was always God initiating man to love him, never the other way around when left to themselves.
Jeremiah 24:6.7
“For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up. And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.”Such an heart is form God's grace, not by man's works! I could heap many such scriptures upon you, but why do so, if you will not receive one? But one more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established as true.
Psalms 65:4
“Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.”I now will go and answer you other post concerning no one was born again in the OT~ a position any child of God should know is false. To me it is amazing anyone would make such a claim, only those who think the new birth is not necessary for one to inherit eternal life, nor is it necessary before one can do mighty acts of faith such as is recorded in Hebrew eleven, all done by folk not yet born again would make such a preposterous/absurd statement.
@civic
Let us consider a few scriptures which will proves that the new birth was taught all through the OT, not with the same plainness of speech as it is in the NT, yet sound reason and sound judgment understands that it was a necessity then, just as it is now, before anyone can do spiritual acts pleasing unto God.
1. folks in the OT knew the necessity of the new birth by the Spirit of God before they could do works pleasing to God. David knew that it was God that made them who they were, they did not do what they did by and of themselves. Why do you think Jesus upbraided Nicodemus for not knowing the necessity of the new birth if it was not a OT truth? Because it was a truth taught by the facts that before any man could do spiritual acts pleasing to God they must be made saints of God, which the term of itself proves the necessity of the new birth and proving it was taught/known.
2. The salvation in the OT is just the same as it is in the NT, and vice versa, which proves the necessity of the new birth.
NT believers are children of Abraham, and both become children of God the very same manner, by the election of grace, and in time by the new birth. God called us the same way the he called Abraham, and Abraham the same way he called us!
3. The Spirit that came upon men in the OT was IN THEM before at certain times they did certain acts performed by the Spirit.
We read in Genesis 41:38 that the Holy Spirit was “in” Joseph. If you compare Numbers 27:18 with Deuteronomy 34:9 you will find that the Holy Spirit came upon Joshua because the Holy Spirit was “in” him beforehand. Daniel was a man in whom the Holy Spirit indwelt (Daniel 4:8,9 18; 5:11,14; 6:3). The Apostle Peter states plainly in 1st Peter 1;11 that the Spirit of Christ was “in” the Old Testament prophets. The Apostle Paul in2md Corinthians 4:13 clearly quotes Psalms 116:10; as proving that David along with New Testament believers possessed the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist had the filling of the Holy Spirit from a child (Luke 1:15). Jesus taught that Old Testament believers experienced regeneration by the Holy Spirit by the fact that he unbraided Nicodemus for not knowing this truth being a master in Israel. John 14:17 Jesus said that the Holy Spirit already indwelt this disciples. In John 20:22, Jesus communicated (knowledge of receiving the availability) the Holy Spirit to His disciples.
4. In addition to the above plain statements of Scripture, Romans 8:9-11; 1st Corinthians 2:10-16; make the indwelling of the Holy Spirit essential to salvation and proof of ownership. No one could be saved without the indwelling of the Spirit and the fruits of the Spirit living out of them.
5. Why Pentecost?
Neither the subject of salvation or of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is mentioned in connection with Pentecost as far as the disciples. The disciples were already saved (Luke 10:20; John 15:13,4,5; 17:14 and many more). They had already been given a divine revelation of whom Jesus was, which rock Christ has and will build his church. See Matthew 16:13-18.
Pentecost was given to show the world of a new rellgion has come to take the place of the Jewish rellgion that had dominated the world for around two thousand years. And this rellgion has the Spirit of God working through them with the evidence (at that time during the reformation period of going from the OT to the NT) speaking in tongues which was other known language other than their own, by men and women who were for the most part uneducated. This new religion of Jesus Christ was not just born, but in truth has been in the world since Abel, yet now its King has come and died and is reigning from his father's David throne and had sent forth his Spirit to empower his followers with the power to spread forth the truths of the kingdom. This coming of the Spirit is a sign to all of the elect that they have all they need to do their Lord's work until he come again to received them unto himself which he has promised to do. The apostles were not born again on Pentecost, that is so absurd to even allow that thought to com into one's heart.
Enough for now.
I find it disturbing that we are called to defend such a position. As I said in my post above this morning that this is a preposterous/absurd statement to even allow oneself to think that those saints in the OT did what they did through the energy of the flesh apart from the Spirit of the Living God being in them, that is in the new man, that was given to them when they were born of God.
Let us consider a few scriptures which will proves that the new birth was taught all through the OT, not with the same plainness of speech as it is in the NT, yet sound reason and sound judgment understands that it was a necessity then, just as it is now, before anyone can do spiritual acts pleasing unto God.
Psalms 100:3
“Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.”1. folks in the OT knew the necessity of the new birth by the Spirit of God before they could do works pleasing to God. David knew that it was God that made them who they were, they did not do what they did by and of themselves. Why do you think Jesus upbraided Nicodemus for not knowing the necessity of the new birth if it was not a OT truth? Because it was a truth taught by the facts that before any man could do spiritual acts pleasing to God they must be made saints of God, which the term of itself proves the necessity of the new birth and proving it was taught/known.
2. The salvation in the OT is just the same as it is in the NT, and vice versa, which proves the necessity of the new birth.
Galatians 3:9
“So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”NT believers are children of Abraham, and both become children of God the very same manner, by the election of grace, and in time by the new birth. God called us the same way the he called Abraham, and Abraham the same way he called us!
Isaiah 51:2
“Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.”3. The Spirit that came upon men in the OT was IN THEM before at certain times they did certain acts performed by the Spirit.
We read in Genesis 41:38 that the Holy Spirit was “in” Joseph. If you compare Numbers 27:18 with Deuteronomy 34:9 you will find that the Holy Spirit came upon Joshua because the Holy Spirit was “in” him beforehand. Daniel was a man in whom the Holy Spirit indwelt (Daniel 4:8,9 18; 5:11,14; 6:3). The Apostle Peter states plainly in 1st Peter 1;11 that the Spirit of Christ was “in” the Old Testament prophets. The Apostle Paul in2md Corinthians 4:13 clearly quotes Psalms 116:10; as proving that David along with New Testament believers possessed the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist had the filling of the Holy Spirit from a child (Luke 1:15). Jesus taught that Old Testament believers experienced regeneration by the Holy Spirit by the fact that he unbraided Nicodemus for not knowing this truth being a master in Israel. John 14:17 Jesus said that the Holy Spirit already indwelt this disciples. In John 20:22, Jesus communicated (knowledge of receiving the availability) the Holy Spirit to His disciples.
4. In addition to the above plain statements of Scripture, Romans 8:9-11; 1st Corinthians 2:10-16; make the indwelling of the Holy Spirit essential to salvation and proof of ownership. No one could be saved without the indwelling of the Spirit and the fruits of the Spirit living out of them.
5. Why Pentecost?
Neither the subject of salvation or of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is mentioned in connection with Pentecost as far as the disciples. The disciples were already saved (Luke 10:20; John 15:13,4,5; 17:14 and many more). They had already been given a divine revelation of whom Jesus was, which rock Christ has and will build his church. See Matthew 16:13-18.
Pentecost was given to show the world of a new rellgion has come to take the place of the Jewish rellgion that had dominated the world for around two thousand years. And this rellgion has the Spirit of God working through them with the evidence (at that time during the reformation period of going from the OT to the NT) speaking in tongues which was other known language other than their own, by men and women who were for the most part uneducated. This new religion of Jesus Christ was not just born, but in truth has been in the world since Abel, yet now its King has come and died and is reigning from his father's David throne and had sent forth his Spirit to empower his followers with the power to spread forth the truths of the kingdom. This coming of the Spirit is a sign to all of the elect that they have all they need to do their Lord's work until he come again to received them unto himself which he has promised to do. The apostles were not born again on Pentecost, that is so absurd to even allow that thought to com into one's heart.
Enough for now.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Just my 2 cents worth not looking to engage.
I don’t think @civic is denying God’s grace at all. The question is about responsibility.
Throughout the Old Testament, faith is consistently presented as something people are called to exercise. Abraham believed God. Israel was commanded to choose life. The prophets repeatedly called the people to repent and return.
Yes, Jeremiah 24:7 says God gives a heart to know Him. Amen .....salvation is always rooted in God’s mercy. But that does not remove the consistent biblical pattern that man is responsible to believe when God speaks.
Hebrews 11 highlights men and women who acted “by faith.” It never says they were passive or acted irresistibly. It presents faith as their response to God’s revealed word.
So I don’t see this as denying grace ..... I see it as affirming that from Genesis onward, it has always been by faith, and God holds people accountable to believe Him.
I’m not looking to debate this further ..... just offering support for that point.
The spiritual man in 1 Corinthians 2 is the man who receives divine inspiration by the Holy Spirit, the apostles and prophets of God. The natural man in 1 Corinthians 2 is all the others who have not been chosen by God to receive His revelation directly by the Holy Spirit. The whole chapter is Paul's statement and defense of his, and the rest of the apostles' and prophets', divinely inspired revelation by the Holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with being born again.
