The Issue of Limited Atonement

[brightfame52]

Obviously, you understand neither.

Sure I do, and being reconciled by His death while enemies in the flesh, they were Justified by His death while enemies in the flesh as Per Rom 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Reconciliation and Justification are relatively the same.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Calvinism again?

The one who needs to repent is you. Calvinism is a heresy which makes God out to be a monster, who alone sends some to heaven and some to hell, without even giving them a chance to choose to repent and believe. My God is not like that at all, because my God is the God of the Bible. I have not nor will I ever deny my Master Jesus, who always gives all men the free will to either choose life and salvation or to choose death by rejecting Him.

With all due respect @dwight92070 , while I sensse your frustration with this subject I firmly believe it is a very important one.

Red has always denied Calvinism, though his beliefs are 100% in line with Calvin save he does not believe, to the best of my knowledge in double predestination..... Nor baby baptisms, which Calvin promoted.

He simply is misinformed with regards to when and how faith happens.

I am a 100% card carrying free will believer. I came away from Calvinism when I learned what it really stood for. I still attend the same church but seems that many members have drawn away from at least the Calvin end od predestination... and it is less and less there. Quite interesting to watch since they claim the West Minster Confession of Faith. But be that as it may... I will be in the anti- predestined fight so long as I can make a coherent response.

 

[Jim]

Sure I do, and being reconciled by His death while enemies in the flesh, they were Justified by His death while enemies in the flesh as Per Rom 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Reconciliation and Justification are relatively the same.

One cannot be lost and saved at the same time. All such biblical statements that you post are presenting a before and after status. It is not a gradual transition. The entire regeneration and justification process is an instantaneous act of God.

 

[brightfame52]

One cannot be lost and saved at the same time.

They can. The elect are reconciled to God by Christs death and at the same time enemies in their minds and unbelievers at the same time Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[FreeInChrist]

They can. The elect are reconciled to God by Christs death and at the same time enemies in their minds and unbelievers at the same time Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So, by your understanding anyone who came before Christ must not have been reconciled to God because they
never even heard of Him.

You say the elect are reconciled to God by Christs death so does that mean that the chosen ones of Israel were not really elect yet? Is that why Jesus had to be sent to the lost ones of them? To introduce Himself? or did those chosen ones just have to wait up to 4000 years plus for Him to die to be reconciled? And become elect?

You may understand your beliefs.... I do not. And am sure others do not either.

 

[civic]

You have posted a dichotomous situation. You stated that "elect were justified, before they ever even knew Christ", Then you posted Ephesians 2:4 saying that God "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ".

One cannot be both justified and dead in sins. That is paradoxical. It tells me that you are confused about what it means to be justified.

Also you speak of being "justified legally in God's sight". To be justified is fundamentally a legal action by God. There is no such thing as being justified illegally or justified non-legally. To be justified is simply a declarative act. To be justified is to be declared righteous. That is why we read about Abraham in Genesis 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
Abraham's believing in God, his faith, is counted, reckoned, credited to him as righteousness. Abraham was declared to be righteous in God's sight. The righteousness of God was imputed to Abraham. He wasn't made righteous; rather he was declared to be righteous.

When a judge in a court proceeding says to the defendant "NOT GUILTY", that does not change anything about the defendant per se. Regardless of whether or not the defendant actually committed the act for which he is being tried, the "NOT GUILTY" is but a declaration. It places the defendant in a legal position before the state and releases the defendant from any and all punishment for the charge.

So also, Paul says, Rom 4:23 But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Thus when we believe in God, it is counted to us as righteousness. What is the "IT" here? IT is our believing in God, our faith in God. That is how Paul can say in Romans 10:10, For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

yes faith is key and its not the faith given to man its the faith in which man believes/trusts Gods promises with regarding salvation. as we know Jesus always said and taught it was their faith which saved them, healed them, made them well not the faith He gave them. this is just another one of the false assumptions made by calvinists reading into the biblical narrative things that are not said.

 

[civic]

So, by your understanding anyone who came before Christ must not have been reconciled to God because they
never even heard of Him.

You say the elect are reconciled to God by Christs death so does that mean that the chosen ones of Israel were not really elect yet? Is that why Jesus had to be sent to the lost ones of them? To introduce Himself? or did those chosen ones just have to wait up to 4000 years plus for Him to die to be reconciled? And become elect?

You may understand your beliefs.... I do not. And am sure others do not either.

poor abraham which Paul said heard the gospel in his day, poor Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, all the prophets listed in the hall of faith in Hebrews 11. its always been by faith and it was always mans responsibility to believe God- and God not once in the OT is said to have given anyone faith, that was up to man to believe and trust God.

 

[brightfame52]

So, by your understanding anyone who came before Christ must not have been reconciled to God because they
never even heard of Him.

I have the slightest idea of what you talking about. Im saying what the scripture is saying in Rom 5:10 that the elect are both saved and lost at the same time. His Death makes a difference

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

Red has always denied Calvinism, though his beliefs are 100% in line with Calvin save he does not believe, to the best of my knowledge in double predestination..... Nor baby baptisms, which Calvin promoted.

You like so many others do not know the difference among the schools of soteriology~no pun intended.. I do not hold to the tulip. I do believe in total depravity, unconditional salvation by the doctrine of election of grace; and limited atonement; yet Calvinism errs with its point of Irresistable Grace, for they apply it to the gospel and conversion, which is farther than truth. They apply irresistible grace, or what they name the “effectual call,” to the preaching of the gospel in the case of all the elect. They believe that all the elect will hear and believe the gospel sometime during their lives and cannot be saved without these things. This is sacramental salvation, for unless the “priest” carries the grace of God’s gospel to the elect, they cannot be saved without it. They must therefore invent all sorts of alternative theories to cover the salvation of infants, idiots, heathen, the deaf and blind, etc. Of course, they rarely define what they mean by “saving faith,” or they would make it to loose, or limit the elect to just a very few. The typical Calvinist, even John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards, seldom differentiate clearly between regeneration and conversion. God’s grace is definitely irresistible when it comes to regeneration, but conversion by the gospel depends on preacher and hearer. The first of the acts is God’s work in salvation, and the second is the information and news concerning it for the comfort of the elect. Ministers must make war with their hearers, for conversion is and always has been a struggle against the resistance of the saints.

However, Calvinism errs with its point of Final Perseverance, for they end up with a fatalist doctrine of men incapable of backsliding. Persevering is man’s action. If God guarantees man’s perseverance, then he will continue in faith and good works without fail. This fatalistic doctrine, if logically followed, would render the New Testament epistles and the work of the ministry unnecessary. If by final perseverance the Calvinist means God will not lose any of His elect, then why not call it preservation like the Bible?

save he does not believe, to the best of my knowledge in double predestination..... Nor baby baptisms, which Calvin promoted.

If there is an election of grace, and IT IS, then there's also predestination of the reprobates. Not we reject baptism of infants as heresy.

He simply is misinformed with regards to when and how faith happens.

I made my post above, prove me wrong if you think you can. I have been teachings this for over fifty years and know what you believe much better than even you yourself understands, I know by reading your post.

Faith FOLLOWS regeneration, not prior to it! Romans 7:18 with many more scriptures to support this truth. Before anyone can do spiritual acts pleasing to God, they MUST have a new man within them that DOES have a will that's not in bondage to sin!

 

[brightfame52]

its always been by faith and it was always mans responsibility to believe God

Faith that pleases God comes from God and is given to His elect when He saves them by His Grace. Its Christs responsibility to save sinners for the Glory of God and so He gives Faith and Repentance

 

[civic]

Faith that pleases God comes from God and is given to His elect when He saves them by His Grace. Its Christs responsibility to save sinners for the Glory of God and so He gives Faith and Repentance

no its not that is assumed by you. Jesus below refutes your claims.

Jesus also taught that a persons faith comes before they are healed or saved. The saving/healing doesn't come before faith. Calvinism has it just the opposite.

Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.

Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below that God gives faith. Jesus said it was THEIR faith that saved them.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

conclusion: I will stick with Jesus teaching on faith , not calvinism's.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jim]

Faith FOLLOWS regeneration, not prior to it! Romans 7:18 with many more scriptures to support this truth. Before anyone can do spiritual acts pleasing to God, they MUST have a new man within them that DOES have a will that's not in bondage to sin!

Hey there Red. As you know well, I disagree that verse says anything about faith following regeneration. But perhaps you could give us your commentary on Romans 7:18. In doing so, please begin with your definition of a spiritual act.

 

[atpollard]

Hey there Red. As you know well, I disagree that verse says anything about faith following regeneration. But perhaps you could give us your commentary on Romans 7:18.

He sort of already did ...

Before anyone can do spiritual acts pleasing to God, they MUST have a new man within them that DOES have a will that's not in bondage to sin!

That really is what that section of Romans 7 & 8 appears to be talking about.

Romans 7:14-25 [NASB]​

For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin. For I do not understand what I am doing; for I am not practicing what I want [to do,] but I do the very thing I hate. However, if I do the very thing I do not want [to do,] I agree with the Law, that [the Law is] good. But now, no longer am I [the one] doing it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good [is] not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I do the very thing I do not want, I am no longer [the one] doing it, but sin that dwells in me. ​

​

I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully agree with the law of God in the inner person, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, [the law] which is in my body's parts. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.​

​

Romans 8:1-11 [NASB]​

Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God [did:] sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and [as an offering] for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so,] and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. ​

​

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.​

... but I leave it to Red to explain his own thoughts.

 

[brightfame52]

no its not that is assumed by you. Jesus below refutes your claims.

Yes it is, the Father sent Christ into the world to save sinners, that's His responsibility. He was responsible to call sinners to repentance 1 Jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Matt 9 13

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

So as Saviour He must give repentance Acts 5 31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[Red Baker]

Not we reject baptism of infants as heresy.

"Not" is a mis typed~we do reject infant baptism as heresy, regardless of the great men before us that preached in favor of it, shame on them.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:

@civic

"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."


Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

Everyone of these scriptures are speaking of those already born of God, (referenced by : daughter, son, etc) who come to Christ not to be saved from their sins but for either someone else, of some personal alignment, etc.

While I agree that some of these are examples of spiritual healing, such as we may do when we go to Christ, for him to open our eyes on certain truths that we may be struggling with, etc., yet, no man in his natural state can come to Christ with faith, for that is impossible, especially so knowing that the flesh is at enmity against God, not just an enemy, but at war against God, truth, etc. and this is not my personal opinion, but the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 8:7​

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”

You men/women put scriptures against each other, instead of making them flow together in one cohesive whole teaching the same truth from Genesis to Revelation, shame on you. I must warn you:

Revelation 22:18​

“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

Very sobering words. The prophecy of THIS BOOK means the whole word of God, not just Revelation.

 

[brightfame52]

et, no man in his natural state can come to Christ with faith, for that is impossible, especially so knowing that the flesh is at enmity against God, not just an enemy, but at war against God, truth, etc. and this is not my personal opinion, but the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 8:7​

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”

Amen for sure

 

[atpollard]

"Not" is a mis typed~we do reject infant baptism as heresy, regardless of the great men before us that preached in favor of it, shame on them.

Go BAPTISTS!!!

 

[FreeInChrist]

@FreeInChrist

You like so many others do not know the difference among the schools of soteriology~no pun intended.. I do not hold to the tulip. I do believe in total depravity, unconditional salvation by the doctrine of election of grace; and limited atonement; yet Calvinism errs with its point of Irresistable Grace, for they apply it to the gospel and conversion, which is farther than truth. They apply irresistible grace, or what they name the “effectual call,” to the preaching of the gospel in the case of all the elect. They believe that all the elect will hear and believe the gospel sometime during their lives and cannot be saved without these things. This is sacramental salvation, for unless the “priest” carries the grace of God’s gospel to the elect, they cannot be saved without it. They must therefore invent all sorts of alternative theories to cover the salvation of infants, idiots, heathen, the deaf and blind, etc. Of course, they rarely define what they mean by “saving faith,” or they would make it to loose, or limit the elect to just a very few. The typical Calvinist, even John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards, seldom differentiate clearly between regeneration and conversion. God’s grace is definitely irresistible when it comes to regeneration, but conversion by the gospel depends on preacher and hearer. The first of the acts is God’s work in salvation, and the second is the information and news concerning it for the comfort of the elect. Ministers must make war with their hearers, for conversion is and always has been a struggle against the resistance of the saints.

However, Calvinism errs with its point of Final Perseverance, for they end up with a fatalist doctrine of men incapable of backsliding. Persevering is man’s action. If God guarantees man’s perseverance, then he will continue in faith and good works without fail. This fatalistic doctrine, if logically followed, would render the New Testament epistles and the work of the ministry unnecessary. If by final perseverance the Calvinist means God will not lose any of His elect, then why not call it preservation like the Bible?

If there is an election of grace, and IT IS, then there's also predestination of the reprobates. Not we reject baptism of infants as heresy.

I made my post above, prove me wrong if you think you can. I have been teachings this for over fifty years and know what you believe much better than even you yourself understands, I know by reading your post.

Faith FOLLOWS regeneration, not prior to it! Romans 7:18 with many more scriptures to support this truth. Before anyone can do spiritual acts pleasing to God, they MUST have a new man within them that DOES have a will that's not in bondage to sin!

Red, we’re no longer disagreeing over Scripture but over categories.

I have never claimed you affirm every historical expression or label associated with Calvinism. My point has been limited to the structure of your soteriology: monergistic regeneration prior to faith, unconditional election, and the inability of the unregenerate to believe.

That framework aligns with the Old School / Primitive Baptist stream of Reformed theology, which sharply distinguishes regeneration from conversion and denies that the gospel is the means of imparting life.

Objections to later formulations of TULIP, the rejection of infant baptism, or disagreements over how some Calvinists apply “effectual calling” do not alter that underlying structure.

That is the entirety of my point. I’ve stated it plainly, and I’m content to leave it there.

 

[civic]

@civic


@civic

Everyone of these scriptures are speaking of those already born of God, (referenced by : daughter, son, etc) who come to Christ not to be saved from their sins but for either someone else, of some personal alignment, etc.

While I agree that some of these are examples of spiritual healing, such as we may do when we go to Christ, for him to open our eyes on certain truths that we may be struggling with, etc., yet, no man in his natural state can come to Christ with faith, for that is impossible, especially so knowing that the flesh is at enmity against God, not just an enemy, but at war against God, truth, etc. and this is not my personal opinion, but the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 8:7​

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”

You men/women put scriptures against each other, instead of making them flow together in one cohesive whole teaching the same truth from Genesis to Revelation, shame on you. I must warn you:

Revelation 22:18​

“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

Very sobering words. The prophecy of THIS BOOK means the whole word of God, not just Revelation.

No one was born again until Pentecost