praise_yeshua
Active Member
Isn't it "wonderful" when a Calvinist only speaks of himself.....
The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
Isn't it "wonderful" when a Calvinist only speaks of himself.....
FreeInChrist
Active Member
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I don’t think we’re actually talking past each other — I think we’re working with different categories.
You are presenting faith as evidence or awareness of an already-accomplished justification, whereas I am addressing faith as Paul presents it — instrumentally, in contrast to works, as that by which righteousness is counted.
I agree entirely that Christ’s obedience alone is the ground of justification and that faith is non-meritorious. Where we differ is that Paul does not speak of faith merely as post-justification knowledge, but as the means God has ordained by which justification is received and reckoned to the believer (Rom 4:3–5).
This is why Paul places “believeth” in deliberate opposition to “worketh,” not as two forms of human activity, but as two fundamentally different principles — one that establishes no debt and excludes boasting entirely.
So, in anticipation of your thoughts on this, I’m not bowing out over our differences. This matters, not only because it helps define where those differences actually are, but more importantly because it brings clarity to what Paul is arguing, why he argues it the way he does, and where our respective frameworks genuinely diverge.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Do you have your sharpie handy? God cross out Heb 11:6.Dont read it just get rid of it.
brightfame52
Active Member
Its the word of God.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Which God... The one in heaven of the one of this world.
brightfame52
Active Member
lol We will see soon enough
praise_yeshua
Active Member
If you consider yourself God...
brightfame52
Active Member
How about a servant of God
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Prove it.
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats not my job. You will see in the day of Judgment
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Anyone/Everyone can say that.
Do you think you'll be cheering as the people you love, yet "were not chosen" get cast into hell?
@FreeInChrist
The only means of anyone obtaining God's righteousness, is through Jesus' obedience to the law of God for his people, which is freely imparted by grace alone to all of God's elect, regardless of their faith, or personal righteousness, baptism or not, immersed or sprinkled, even though immersion is the only scriptural way to be baptized, yet our gift of eternal life is not dependent on water baptism. I will add: all who profess Christ lives in obedience to the word of God when their overall life is considered.
In the second quote, you need to reconsider this, because, all of the elect were justified, before they ever even knew Christ, some of us were not born, yet when Christ died and rose again, the payment for our sins was paid in full and at that time we were were justified legally in God's sight.
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”
Do I need to expounds these wonderful scriptures? God has loved his elect from eternity, and in time sent Christ to die for us, and when he did die, we were members of elect body, what is true of him is true of us, where he is legally speaking so are we.
Thank you for your kind correspondence; I trust progress can be achieved for the glory of God and the salvation (practically speaking) of his elect. Let me see if I can even more so break this down. You said:
Okay, I ask you: counted in what sense are you speaking about? Counted as an evidence, or the knowledge of..... a truth in the holy scriptures; or counted in a legal sense as the means to obtain God's righteousness?
The only means of anyone obtaining God's righteousness, is through Jesus' obedience to the law of God for his people, which is freely imparted by grace alone to all of God's elect, regardless of their faith, or personal righteousness, baptism or not, immersed or sprinkled, even though immersion is the only scriptural way to be baptized, yet our gift of eternal life is not dependent on water baptism. I will add: all who profess Christ lives in obedience to the word of God when their overall life is considered.
In the first quote box we agree 100%.
In the second quote, you need to reconsider this, because, all of the elect were justified, before they ever even knew Christ, some of us were not born, yet when Christ died and rose again, the payment for our sins was paid in full and at that time we were were justified legally in God's sight.
Romans 4:25
“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”Ephesians 2:4
“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”Do I need to expounds these wonderful scriptures? God has loved his elect from eternity, and in time sent Christ to die for us, and when he did die, we were members of elect body, what is true of him is true of us, where he is legally speaking so are we.
So, I ask you in what sense is faith reckoned to us? Not legally, impossible, in a practical sense, then I would agree.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Waiting for your answer because I asked similar a while back and got a not really answered answer.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Red, Thank you for posting as you did. I will endeavor to be as clear in my posting as you.@FreeInChrist
Thank you for your kind correspondence; I trust progress can be achieved for the glory of God and the salvation (practically speaking) of his elect. Let me see if I can even more so break this down. You said:
Okay, I ask you: counted in what sense are you speaking about? Counted as an evidence, or the knowledge of..... a truth in the holy scriptures; or counted in a legal sense as the means to obtain God's righteousness?
The only means of anyone obtaining God's righteousness, is through Jesus' obedience to the law of God for his people, which is freely imparted by grace alone to all of God's elect, regardless of their faith, or personal righteousness, baptism or not, immersed or sprinkled, even though immersion is the only scriptural way to be baptized, yet our gift of eternal life is not dependent on water baptism. I will add: all who profess Christ lives in obedience to the word of God when their overall life is considered.
In the first quote box we agree 100%.
In the second quote, you need to reconsider this, because, all of the elect were justified, before they ever even knew Christ, some of us were not born, yet when Christ died and rose again, the payment for our sins was paid in full and at that time we were were justified legally in God's sight.
Romans 4:25
“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”
Ephesians 2:4
“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Do I need to expounds these wonderful scriptures? God has loved his elect from eternity, and in time sent Christ to die for us, and when he did die, we were members of elect body, what is true of him is true of us, where he is legally speaking so are we.
So, I ask you in what sense is faith reckoned to us? Not legally, impossible, in a practical sense, then I would agree.
I agree entirely that Christ’s obedience and atoning death are the sole ground of justification, and that nothing in the sinner — including faith — contributes merit to that righteousness.
Where we differ is not on the ground of justification, but on when and how Scripture says justification is applied and reckoned to the individual.
You have stated that all the elect were legally justified at the cross, prior to faith, prior to existence, and prior to believing.
Paul repeatedly locates the reckoning of righteousness at the point of believing, not merely the later awareness of a justification already possessed.
In Romans 4, Paul does not describe faith as later awareness of a completed justification. He says: “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness” (Rom 4:3).
If Abraham was already legally justified prior to faith, Paul’s argument collapses. There would be nothing to count, nothing to reckon, and no contrast with works.
Romans 4:25 teaches that Christ’s resurrection is the ground and guarantee of justification — not that individuals are personally justified apart from faith.
The cross accomplished redemption objectively; faith is how that righteousness is imputed personally, exactly as Paul argues in Romans 4:5.
Ephesians 2 speaks of union with Christ and the certainty of salvation in God’s purpose, not the timing of forensic justification apart from faith.
If being “dead in sins” yet already justified were Paul’s meaning, then justification would precede faith by necessity, making Paul’s repeated insistence on believing unnecessary.
If faith is not the means by which righteousness is imputed, why does Paul repeatedly say righteousness is counted through faith, and why does he explicitly deny that justification occurs “before believing” (Rom 4:5)?
dwight92070
Active Member
Calvinism again?
The one who needs to repent is you. Calvinism is a heresy which makes God out to be a monster, who alone sends some to heaven and some to hell, without even giving them a chance to choose to repent and believe. My God is not like that at all, because my God is the God of the Bible. I have not nor will I ever deny my Master Jesus, who always gives all men the free will to either choose life and salvation or to choose death by rejecting Him.
You have posted a dichotomous situation. You stated that "elect were justified, before they ever even knew Christ", Then you posted Ephesians 2:4 saying that God "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ".In the second quote, you need to reconsider this, because, all of the elect were justified, before they ever even knew Christ, some of us were not born, yet when Christ died and rose again, the payment for our sins was paid in full and at that time we were were justified legally in God's sight.
Romans 4:25
“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”
Ephesians 2:4
“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
One cannot be both justified and dead in sins. That is paradoxical. It tells me that you are confused about what it means to be justified.
Also you speak of being "justified legally in God's sight". To be justified is fundamentally a legal action by God. There is no such thing as being justified illegally or justified non-legally. To be justified is simply a declarative act. To be justified is to be declared righteous. That is why we read about Abraham in Genesis 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
Abraham's believing in God, his faith, is counted, reckoned, credited to him as righteousness. Abraham was declared to be righteous in God's sight. The righteousness of God was imputed to Abraham. He wasn't made righteous; rather he was declared to be righteous.
When a judge in a court proceeding says to the defendant "NOT GUILTY", that does not change anything about the defendant per se. Regardless of whether or not the defendant actually committed the act for which he is being tried, the "NOT GUILTY" is but a declaration. It places the defendant in a legal position before the state and releases the defendant from any and all punishment for the charge.
So also, Paul says, Rom 4:23 But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Thus when we believe in God, it is counted to us as righteousness. What is the "IT" here? IT is our believing in God, our faith in God. That is how Paul can say in Romans 10:10, For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
@dwight92070
When Satan and other angels sinned, the scriptures said that God cast them down to hell ~ hell here is used in the sense of them being curse of God and assigned to chain of darkness, void of light, spiritual understanding, void of the power to repent, very happy being the servants of wickedness, etc. They roam freely (as God allow them to do) in this world as we know, yet they are reserved unto the judgment unto the great day of God Almighty.
For man, God did provided a redemption for some, even though no man had a right to God's mercy.
We must conclude, that it is not of our own will, that we become holy, humble, and spiritual; but we ought to ascribe it wholly to God, and his gracious influence upon us. It is explicitly denied, that those, who are born again, are born of the will of the flesh, and of the will of man: And it is asserted, that they are born of God (John 1:13). The necessary Conclusion from which is, that Regeneration is not of the will and endeavor of man, but that it is wholly and solely the produce of a divine operation upon us. "These are plain texts," and not figurative expressions, wherein the whole of what we contend for, is plainly affirmed; and therefore, our opinion is not built on metaphors, and figurative modes of speech, but it is expressed in the plainest Language; which fully defends us.
Jude 1:3
“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”
So, the question is: "how do men fall under this condemnation of denying the Lord, whom they are suppose to be his mouth piece to the people they are preaching to?" Just as you are doing, denying the particular (or limited) atonement provided by God through Christ for his elect only and not for all men without exception, as you and other false teachers are proclaiming!
Where do you see anywhere in my post where I mention Calvinism, or anything close to Calvinism. Point it out to me.
Your job is to take what I posted and prove it wrong if you think you can, which you didn't even make an halfway attempt to do so, instead you attack the person instead of proving his doctrine wrong. Pretty sure that's against the rules, but, I'll never report anyone, because I rather teach the scriptures and trust God to defend me, or if I'm wrong, to rebuke me with scriptures.
Again, this is not about Calvinism, did you not read what i said above?
I'm not a Calvinist in the true sense of Calvinism, I know the difference between the two main schools concerning soteriology, you sir, obviously do not. You need to learn the the two schools concerning soteriology, before attacking another person's teachings.
God has the sovereign right to do as he pleases with both angels and men, and vain man has no right to question him, all deserves to be destroy, no man or angels have any inherent righteousness that they did not receive from God, and besides all who did received righteousness and glory from God corrupted it as soon as God left them to themselves! If you do not believe what I just said, then prove me wrong, I can add much more. I do not even expect you to even try to prove it wrong, since you will not find support for the scriptures.
Are you speaking for the devil and complaining for him? God did not give those spirits who left their first estate a chance to repent and come back, and the reason being is this~"they could not," and did not want to come back because of the darkness to which they were assigned to after their fall!
2md Peter 2:4
“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;”When Satan and other angels sinned, the scriptures said that God cast them down to hell ~ hell here is used in the sense of them being curse of God and assigned to chain of darkness, void of light, spiritual understanding, void of the power to repent, very happy being the servants of wickedness, etc. They roam freely (as God allow them to do) in this world as we know, yet they are reserved unto the judgment unto the great day of God Almighty.
For man, God did provided a redemption for some, even though no man had a right to God's mercy.
Free will carried many a soul to destruction, but never a soul to heaven. This doctrine is a specials doctrine of the antichrist spirits that shall come in great numbers, before the coming of Christ. Humans do not possess "free will" in the sense of being able to do spiritual acts pleasing to God, due to the corruption of sin, the human will is enslaved to evil and can only choose good through God's grace and regeneration. The human will is so far corrupted by sin that it cannot of itself choose what is good. Man has "no free" will to choose either to believe or not to believe.
John 1:13
“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”Romans 9:16
“So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.”We must conclude, that it is not of our own will, that we become holy, humble, and spiritual; but we ought to ascribe it wholly to God, and his gracious influence upon us. It is explicitly denied, that those, who are born again, are born of the will of the flesh, and of the will of man: And it is asserted, that they are born of God (John 1:13). The necessary Conclusion from which is, that Regeneration is not of the will and endeavor of man, but that it is wholly and solely the produce of a divine operation upon us. "These are plain texts," and not figurative expressions, wherein the whole of what we contend for, is plainly affirmed; and therefore, our opinion is not built on metaphors, and figurative modes of speech, but it is expressed in the plainest Language; which fully defends us.
One can deny God by rejecting palin scriptures which at the moment you are. Prove your words by believing his word. Again:
2nd Peter 2:1
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”Jude 1:3
“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”
So, the question is: "how do men fall under this condemnation of denying the Lord, whom they are suppose to be his mouth piece to the people they are preaching to?" Just as you are doing, denying the particular (or limited) atonement provided by God through Christ for his elect only and not for all men without exception, as you and other false teachers are proclaiming!
There is no question about whether or not only the elect have received the benefit of atonement. There are several questions that remain. One question is who the elect are. How did the elect become the elect? Another question that needs to be addressed is what biblical atonement is. I find it interesting that the word does not even exist in most English versions. Of the dozen or so that I frequently read, only the KJV even contains the word; and that only in Romans 5:11. If it is something that Christ has done, how could what He did be considered limited? Is it somehow an insufficient act to accomplish what needed to be accomplished? I don't think so.
brightfame52
Active Member
Obviously, you understand neither.
