The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
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FreeInChrist
Active Member
Paul never argues against faith—he argues against works.@FreeInChrist
Before I start, I will say this to your credit, you are doing much better posting in theology forum section than you did back seventeen year or so. That's commendable on your part and I say this in all truthfulness. Your knowledge has indeed increased, some folks knowledge never increases.
Now to your post.
The first part of the quote box is wrong, but for now we will leave it be, let us consider these words:
First: Legally, we were justified by Christ's obedience and faith. That's the biblical meaning of not only Galatians 2:16, which you posted, but also the following scriptures:
Romans 3:22
“Even the righteousness of God "which is" by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”
Philippians 3:9
“And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”
@FreeInChrist the very life that a child of God now lives, is not by his faith, but by the faith of Christ that he secured for us!
Galatians 2:20
“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”
Dear soul, I'm saying no more than what our forefather taught back hundreds of years ago, please consider:
John Brine ~ 1700's: "Faith is not the impulsive or moving cause of Justification. It is an act of pure and free grace, without any motive in the creature: Therefore the Apostle saith, “being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption which is in Jesus Christ” (Ephesians 1:7). But this benefit would not be of grace, but of works, was our faith the impulsive cause of it: because faith is a work or act of ours, as we learn from the words of Christ: “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” (John 6:29). Salvation is not of works, in any branch of it; “for by grace are we saved, through faith; that not of our selves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). From whence it is evident that Justification, which is a considerable part of salvation, cannot be by works. The grace of God eminently appears in contriving the way of our Justification by Christ’s righteousness, and in sending Him into the world to work out a righteousness for us, in which we stand complete in His sight: Hence we are said, “to be justified by his grace, that we might made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” (Titus 3:7) No other cause can be assigned why sinners are justified in the sight of God, than His free favour and sovereign pleasure, as the effect of which He determined to justify them in the righteousness of His Son."
See: https://www.libcfl.com/articles/brine.htm
Samuel Richardson, who wrote the best article I have ever read on this subject:
Samuel Richardson: Justification by Christ Alone (1647) – mercyuponall.org
www.mercyuponall.org
Throughout his letters, Paul’s consistent contrast is not between Christ’s faithfulness and believing, but between έργα νόμου (works of law) and faith. Faith is never treated as the problem to be removed, but as the God-ordained alternative to working. This is precisely why Paul says, “to him that worketh not, but believeth, his faith is counted for righteousness” (Rom 4:5). Faith stands in opposition to works not because it earns, but because it receives.
Paul explicitly explains the contrast: “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth…”~placing believing in deliberate opposition to working, not alongside it.
Even where pistis Christou is rightly understood as Christ’s faithfulness, Paul does not use that truth to erase the instrumental role of believing. In Romans 3:22, the righteousness secured by Christ is said to be “unto all and upon all them that believe.” That final clause is not decorative. Paul repeatedly attaches justification to believing, not as merit, but as reception.
If faith were itself a work, Paul’s contrast in Romans 4 collapses, for believing could no longer stand as the non-working alternative he insists upon.
If faith were merely evidentiary, Paul’s argument loses its force. Evidence does not contrast with works; receiving does. Evidence does not have righteousness reckoned to it; faith does. And Paul would have no need to insist, again and again, that justification is through faith if faith only revealed a status already fully possessed apart from believing.
That is where I cannot follow the reduction of faith to evidence alone—not because it exalts faith, but because it says less than Paul himself says.
@brightfame52, You do know that what you think about it has nothing to do with the truth of it, right?
@Jim
Jim, did you even read his article? Based upon what you are saying here I assumed you did not. John Brine knew fully the law of God and its proper use, your post makes little sense. I have read it more than once trying to see what you are attempting to say, and still have no clue, as far as the article. Maybe you can point out to me what you think he is saying by quoting him and then giving your disagreement, and we can go from there. Until then, I think you are misunderstanding something.
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Red, I read what you quoted from Brine. I didn't read the article from Richardson; but I will.
@FreeInChrist
Our obedience, be it whatever one desires to teach, has not one thing to do with our justification from the condemnation of God's law; Justification is freely given by grace alone, through Christ alone, or, on his behalf, without any deeds on man's part, since in our flesh dwelleth no good thing, not to mention, the power of one's will that so many teaches is free; man's flesh does not co-partner, cooperates with the Spirit to bring about the new birth, that's bringing in works through the back door which many attempt to do. Do not lightly pass over these two paragraphs.
Please consider: This is the most popular Bible quotation (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6 and James 2:23)
We do understand how that Paul mention faith over and over, and Abraham is the greatest example of it. So, in what sense is Abraham the father of us? And why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing those who seek to be justified
We understand that Abraham was a man approved of God and commended by Him for faith. Yet, let it be known, for those who are trusting in circumcision (in our day baptism) he was declared righteous before it! For those trusting in the deeds of the (like @Studyman) Abraham was righteous 430 before the law was even given. (Romans 4:13-16; Galatians 3;17)
What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Genesis 15:6). Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time?
Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions.
Arminians hold conditional justification – faith is the human condition for righteousness. Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument, channel, receiving righteousness.
We reject both, for our faith does not affect legal justification. It only affects the knowledge of it in our conscience/heart.
The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.
The difference is significant ~ is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?
Consider carefullY: Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Genesis 12:1-4; Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 13:4, 14-18; 14:17-24).
If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted!
Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire (Genesis 14:18-20) ?
Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Gen 15:1)!
If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Psalm 106:30-31) !
Answer this question: Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what? Or, is it solely by the obedience of ONE, Jesus Christ?
I freely admit that Romans four is one of the hardest portion of God's word for young believers to grasp hold of, and this subject in particular
Maybe later I finish your post, but for now it is long enough for the average reader. .
I understand that point well, yet, any commandment we have an "active part in" ~in order to receive something from God, BECOMES a work of the law! Faith is a work on man's part, and I might add, just as charity, and any other fruit of the Spirit, so why chose faith as the medium, channel through which eternal life is given to the sinner? The scriptures said that the obedience of Christ is the only means of receiving eternal life, which obedience includes faith on his part, along with all other works, charity, meekness, longsuffering brotherly kindness, and many, many more.
Romans 5:19
“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”Our obedience, be it whatever one desires to teach, has not one thing to do with our justification from the condemnation of God's law; Justification is freely given by grace alone, through Christ alone, or, on his behalf, without any deeds on man's part, since in our flesh dwelleth no good thing, not to mention, the power of one's will that so many teaches is free; man's flesh does not co-partner, cooperates with the Spirit to bring about the new birth, that's bringing in works through the back door which many attempt to do. Do not lightly pass over these two paragraphs.
What the Holy Ghost through the prophets, and apostles constantly affirms is this: that faith is the system which God has chosen for us to come to understand how we were made the righteousness of God through the only means possible, by Him having a Son, and sending him into the world as the surety of his elect, this is the message of the gospel from Abraham to David, to Paul, all through the scriptures.
Romans 4:3
“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”Please consider: This is the most popular Bible quotation (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6 and James 2:23)
We do understand how that Paul mention faith over and over, and Abraham is the greatest example of it. So, in what sense is Abraham the father of us? And why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing those who seek to be justified
We understand that Abraham was a man approved of God and commended by Him for faith. Yet, let it be known, for those who are trusting in circumcision (in our day baptism) he was declared righteous before it! For those trusting in the deeds of the (like @Studyman) Abraham was righteous 430 before the law was even given. (Romans 4:13-16; Galatians 3;17)
What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Genesis 15:6). Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time?
Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions.
Arminians hold conditional justification – faith is the human condition for righteousness. Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument, channel, receiving righteousness.
We reject both, for our faith does not affect legal justification. It only affects the knowledge of it in our conscience/heart.
The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.
The difference is significant ~ is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?
Consider carefullY: Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Genesis 12:1-4; Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 13:4, 14-18; 14:17-24).
If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted!
Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire (Genesis 14:18-20) ?
Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Gen 15:1)!
If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Psalm 106:30-31) !
Answer this question: Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what? Or, is it solely by the obedience of ONE, Jesus Christ?
I freely admit that Romans four is one of the hardest portion of God's word for young believers to grasp hold of, and this subject in particular
Maybe later I finish your post, but for now it is long enough for the average reader. .
@Jim
Brother, I also posted an article by John Brine. Jim you do good for you age, I'm not far behind you and know how hard it is on me, I can only imagine you being almost ninety. The Lord has been very gracious to both of us and has allow us to continue until this day, as Caleb of old said.
Joshua 14:10
“And now, behold, the LORD hath kept me alive, as he said, these forty and five years, even since the LORD spake this word unto Moses, while the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness: and now, lo, I am this day fourscore and five years old.”@Studyman
Concerning the scriptures here, I believe every word of them and do heed them as far as receiving God's blessings through our obedience in heeding His word, yet I do not look for any rewards as far as eternal life by doing certain works of righteousness, I do them to please the God I serve, not to earn eternal life by them. I also know that the power to live this life of a child of God was secured for me by Christ, and the life I now live, I live by his faith, not ant thing found worthy within me! (Galatians 2:20)
I know, do not tell me, I should quote half to the NT to prove my point!
When anyone quote a scripture they do not need to quote half of a chapter ~ your criticizing me for only quoting a portion proves nothing as far as you providing more light, for all you are doing is adding your works into free justification.
Concerning the scriptures here, I believe every word of them and do heed them as far as receiving God's blessings through our obedience in heeding His word, yet I do not look for any rewards as far as eternal life by doing certain works of righteousness, I do them to please the God I serve, not to earn eternal life by them. I also know that the power to live this life of a child of God was secured for me by Christ, and the life I now live, I live by his faith, not ant thing found worthy within me! (Galatians 2:20)
I have no clue what you mean by this, and pretty sure you do not either!
Do you truly have anything else to say other than this worned out sermon of yours? It is amazing how you can just about any scriptures in any book of the bibles and preach/teach the same old message about "the religions of this world". Your bible knowledge can fill a very small book of a few pages.
What in the world are babbling about?
That's why you will never find anyone that you can carry on a conversation with that is profitable~because it is about "your" adopted religious philosophy, that is a mixture of SDA, and a few others.
Legally, yes, practically, no!
John 13:10
“Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.”Again read John 13:10, we do sin each and every hour we live and need to confess our sins, yet the new man within us CANNOT sin and has eternal life NOW abiding within us!
1st John 3:9
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”John 11:26
“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”I know, do not tell me, I should quote half to the NT to prove my point!
No child of God will be judge by their works to determined if they will receive eternal life or not, but we will be judge by our works and be rewarded according in the new heaven and new earth. Jesus Christ did indeed secured eternal life for all of God's elect, yet we shall stand before God to give account of our stewardship.
Later I will finish, I have some appointments now.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Red, the closing comment of your post genuinely made me smile. When you wrote, “Maybe later I finish your post, but for now it is long enough for the average reader,” I was reminded of Ludwig Mies van der Rohe and his well-known line, “Less is more.” With that in mind, I’ll try to keep this focused and precise as I respond.
Paul never defines “works” as mere human activity, but as that which earns, obligates, or creates debt before God (Rom 4:4). This distinction is essential, because Paul does not exclude faith on the grounds that it is inactive, but because it is non-meritorious.
This is precisely why Paul can say, without qualification, “to him that worketh not, but believeth” (Rom 4:5). Believing is placed in deliberate opposition to working, not alongside it. If faith were a work of the law simply because it involves human response, Paul’s contrast collapses, and his grammar becomes incoherent.
Faith excludes boasting not because it contributes nothing experientially, but because it contributes nothing meritoriously. It does not create obligation, establish debt, or secure reward. It receives what Another has earned. For this reason Paul calls it “the law of faith” (Rom 3:27), a principle that excludes boasting rather than reintroducing it.
To redefine faith as a work is therefore not a safeguard of grace but a reversal of Paul’s argument. If faith were itself a legal work, then it could not be commanded, required, or pleasing to God. Yet Scripture explicitly teaches that “without faith it is impossible to please God” (Heb 11:6), confirming that faith belongs to a distinct category from works of the law.
Christ’s obedience is the sole ground of justification, but faith is the God-ordained means by which that obedience is received and counted to the sinner. Paul never presents these as competing explanations. Instead, he excludes works precisely by establishing faith as the alternative.
brightfame52
Active Member
What is faith here ? Matt 23:23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Matthew 23:23 is Jesus rebuking Pharisees under the Mosaic Law, prior to the cross. The “faith” mentioned there refers to covenant faithfulness, not justifying faith.
Paul later makes the distinction clear: justification is by faith apart from works of the law (Rom 3:28; Gal 2:16). If faith were itself a work of the Law, Paul’s contrast would be meaningless.
Therefore Matthew 23:23 does not collapse faith into works; it addresses ethical faithfulness within the Law, not justification before God.
That sounds like you do not think that God is pleased by any obedience to His law. I don't believe that is true. Faith belongs to a distinct category from works of the law since it is not contained in God's law; there is no requirement in God's law to believe.
Paul excludes works because only by keeping the law perfectly can the law be said to make one righteous and no one [besides Jesus Christ] has ever kept the law perfectly. As James says, if one breaks even one point of the law, he has failed in the whole law.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I am not arguing that God is displeased with obedience. Scripture clearly teaches that obedience pleases God. My point is about justification, not sanctification.
Paul excludes works of the law not merely because the law requires perfection (though that is true, cf. James 2:10), but because works operate on a wage principle, while faith operates on a grace principle (Rom 4:4–5).
Faith is required by God and commanded (e.g., Acts 17:30; 1 John 3:23), yet it is not a Mosaic work. That is precisely why Paul contrasts faith with works of the law.
Christ’s obedience alone is the ground of justification; faith is the God-ordained means by which that obedience is received. These are not competing explanations, and Paul never treats faith as a legal work.
brightfame52
Active Member
Faith is a weighty matter of the law
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Faith in the law.
Faith in something you can't do yourself is of another sort.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
brightfame52
Active Member
Faith is a weighty matter of the law Matt 23:23Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Faith in the law.
Faith in something you can't do yourself is of another sort.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
There are two types of Faith, that of the natural man by nature, thats law faith, then Faith which is the Gift of od He gives to a saved person, thats Faith from Grace,
@FreeInChrist
@FreeInChrist if God has chosen a work system for us to do before we can know that we have been justified, then we would never have the peace of God reigning in our hearts, since we know sin is present in all that we do, thereby, none would ever enjoy this great salvation that God has given to us freely through his Son.
There's a lot of wisdom in that saying. Let's see if I can put that to use here.
Actually it is both. Everything we do, say, think, comes from us living in this body of flesh, thereby, becomes a human activity, good or bad.
Not because it is inactive, it is impossible to even being there in our flesh. Even after one is born of God, it still is non-meritorious, becuase we still live in a body of sin and death, thereby, is imperfect, and all we do, even in our most holy moments is mixed with sin, to our own shame.
Not if we understand the sense in which Paul uses faith and works here, and the meaning/senses of how justification is imputeth to us, both legally and in our conscience when true understanding comes to us through the hearing of faith. We cannot enjoy the peace of God in our conscience, since we know that our works are so imperfect, yet by faith in the word of God we can have peace in our conscience based upon the witness of the word of God, that Christ secured the righteousness that gives us a right to eternal life....that the meaning of Romans 4:1-5:2...bottom line, faith is the system that God has ordained to give His elect knowledge of their free justification through and on the behalf of Jesus Christ, acting as our surety.
@FreeInChrist if God has chosen a work system for us to do before we can know that we have been justified, then we would never have the peace of God reigning in our hearts, since we know sin is present in all that we do, thereby, none would ever enjoy this great salvation that God has given to us freely through his Son.
No, faith LOOKS to Christ alone for securing the gift of eternal life for us, based upon the hearing of the word of God. Not only does not faith contribute anything meritoriously, it is NOT the means, channel through which we are born again, it is the means of KNOWING about of free justification, thereby, becomes an evidence "only", nothing more. The law of faith is the SYSTEM we live under, just as Abraham did before us!
Again, it is evidence that we are justified, and apart from faith we would never know this great truth. Whether or not a man believes, means very little, since millions will enjoy eternal life who have never heard of Christ, or who do not have the mental capacity to believe, such as infants and feebleminded folks. Believing is added blessing to those that do believe. That being said, if a person hears and rejects, then that person is given evidence that Christ did not die for their sins, and they will die in their sins.
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brightfame52
Active Member
Amen, thats the hearing of Faith Gal 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
The Gospel comes to the elect regenerate to hear How God in Christ saved is People by Grace. It doesn't come preaching conditions to get saved. But a finished work that has saved and provided righteousness for our acceptance with God through Christ.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
That is your systematic theological nonsense. I explained the differences between faith. You have a difference between
faiths yourself. Don't pretend that you don't.
