The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
civic
Active Member
adding to scripture once again just like you did with faith- seeing invisible words. The word of God is precise. God means what He says and says what He means without adding a single word to His Holy Word.
brightfame52
Active Member
Adding elect is okay, its the only people Christ died for
civic
Active Member
nope for all the world- John 3:16
for the sins of all the world- 1 John 2:2
next fallacy
brightfame52
Active Member
Still the elect, they're Gods Loved world
civic
Active Member
No it’s all the lost , everyone
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
amen, for God so loved the world..
brightfame52
Active Member
Oh no, only the elect
civic
Active Member
False
brightfame52
Active Member
Who are the objects of Christs Death in this passage Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
civic
Active Member
A text without the context is a pretext for a proof text .
Your doctrine is based upon isolating verses from he biblical narrative which amounts to eisegesis.
@TomL
A few questions for you to answer.
1) Tom, Christ did not died for the sins of every man in the world. Even though most men strongly affirm that Christ died for all the sins of every person in the world, and yet most of the world are not saved, nor will they ever be so ~ to whom we reply, how can it agree with the wisdom of God, to grant that which he knew would never profit?
2) As for God to give Christ to die for the salvation of man, and yet decree to condemn him? And doth not Christ lose the end of his death, to die for their salvation who yet perish? Or is it justice to require the payment of one debt twice? Tom, you seem to be wise, ever heard of the law of "double jeopardy"? if an unrighteous nation such as USA have a law which states: "The Double Jeopardy Clause, part of the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, protects individuals from being tried twice for the same offense. It generally prevents retrials after acquittal or conviction by the same government for the same crime. If America has such a law, then God's justice is so much more righteous than any law man may come up with. If Jesus indeed paid for the debt of sin every man owes, then God's justice MUST declare that person free of condemnation of a broken law.
3) Is there remission of sins in Christ for every man, but no righteousness, no everlasting life for them? Did Christ purchase salvation, but not the application of salvation, which is necessary to salvation? How doth it appear, Christ purchased salvation, or enough for salvation, or is the death of Christ of an uncertain event? Is Christ appointed to death, to purchase a possibility of salvation, but not salvation itself, with the application of it, then Christ shed his blood to save man and yet no man saved by it; for if it depends upon man’s believing of it, why may not all of them perish as well as any of them? And if it be so, if man please, Christ shall lose the end of his death; but it clearly appears, that all those for whose sins Christ died, are justified by his blood, and shall be saved from wrath through him; for if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more being reconciled,we shall be saved by his life.
Again~
4) Tom are you one of them affirm that Christ never died for the sin of unbelief, and that final unbelief is the unpardonable sin. It cannot truly be denied that unbelief, (a not believing Christ,) which sin is most immediately and directly against Christ, is, along with all manner of sin and blasphemy, a sin that is pardonable, as Christ saith, which shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, as appears, (Matt.12:31-32,) therefore not believing in Christ, is not the unpardonable sin. Such as believe, have been guilty of unbelief, which is pardoned in them, and if the sin of unbelief, which is none of the least sins, is pardoned without the blood of Christ to the elect who believe, why might not all other sins in like manner be so pardoned to them, and then shall not the blood of Jesus Christ be shed in vain, because by their reason their sins might have been pardoned without it, as well as their unbelief. And seeing without the shedding of blood there is no remission, Heb.9:22, let them declare how unbelief can be remitted; also if the blood of Jesus Christ his Son, cleanses us from all sin, then from unbelief also, (Ist Jn.1:7); also if final unbelief were the sin against the Holy Spirit that is unpardonable, then it could not be committed before death, “there is a sin unto death, if thou see thy brother sin, etc., (Ist Jn.5:16,) but if a man could not commit this sin before he die, he could not be seen so to sin, which sin is described, (Heb.10:29,) therefore final unbelief is not this sin here spoken of.
To conclude, Christ died not for the sins of the entire world; for Christ saith that he laid down his life for his sheep, (John10:15) and that the reason why some (the majority) did not believe, is because they were not of his sheep.
The end of redemption is application, (Phil.1:29, John 6:37,39); and the scripture saith that Christ took upon him the seed of Abraham, Heb.2:16, and how Abraham’s seed is considered, appears (Galatians 3:16, 22, 29); for such as are Christ’s, are such as believe, and are Abraham’s seed; and seeing all Adam’s posterity cannot be considered to be Abraham’s seed in no sense, therefore there is no ground to conceive/teach that Christ died for the sins of all the seed of Adam, as you and others affirm. affirm.
Tom, will you ever practice Nehemiah 8:8?
Nehemiah 8:8
“So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.”A few questions for you to answer.
1) Tom, Christ did not died for the sins of every man in the world. Even though most men strongly affirm that Christ died for all the sins of every person in the world, and yet most of the world are not saved, nor will they ever be so ~ to whom we reply, how can it agree with the wisdom of God, to grant that which he knew would never profit?
2) As for God to give Christ to die for the salvation of man, and yet decree to condemn him? And doth not Christ lose the end of his death, to die for their salvation who yet perish? Or is it justice to require the payment of one debt twice? Tom, you seem to be wise, ever heard of the law of "double jeopardy"? if an unrighteous nation such as USA have a law which states: "The Double Jeopardy Clause, part of the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, protects individuals from being tried twice for the same offense. It generally prevents retrials after acquittal or conviction by the same government for the same crime. If America has such a law, then God's justice is so much more righteous than any law man may come up with. If Jesus indeed paid for the debt of sin every man owes, then God's justice MUST declare that person free of condemnation of a broken law.
3) Is there remission of sins in Christ for every man, but no righteousness, no everlasting life for them? Did Christ purchase salvation, but not the application of salvation, which is necessary to salvation? How doth it appear, Christ purchased salvation, or enough for salvation, or is the death of Christ of an uncertain event? Is Christ appointed to death, to purchase a possibility of salvation, but not salvation itself, with the application of it, then Christ shed his blood to save man and yet no man saved by it; for if it depends upon man’s believing of it, why may not all of them perish as well as any of them? And if it be so, if man please, Christ shall lose the end of his death; but it clearly appears, that all those for whose sins Christ died, are justified by his blood, and shall be saved from wrath through him; for if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more being reconciled,we shall be saved by his life.
Romans 5:8-10
“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”Again~
John 8:36
“If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”4) Tom are you one of them affirm that Christ never died for the sin of unbelief, and that final unbelief is the unpardonable sin. It cannot truly be denied that unbelief, (a not believing Christ,) which sin is most immediately and directly against Christ, is, along with all manner of sin and blasphemy, a sin that is pardonable, as Christ saith, which shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, as appears, (Matt.12:31-32,) therefore not believing in Christ, is not the unpardonable sin. Such as believe, have been guilty of unbelief, which is pardoned in them, and if the sin of unbelief, which is none of the least sins, is pardoned without the blood of Christ to the elect who believe, why might not all other sins in like manner be so pardoned to them, and then shall not the blood of Jesus Christ be shed in vain, because by their reason their sins might have been pardoned without it, as well as their unbelief. And seeing without the shedding of blood there is no remission, Heb.9:22, let them declare how unbelief can be remitted; also if the blood of Jesus Christ his Son, cleanses us from all sin, then from unbelief also, (Ist Jn.1:7); also if final unbelief were the sin against the Holy Spirit that is unpardonable, then it could not be committed before death, “there is a sin unto death, if thou see thy brother sin, etc., (Ist Jn.5:16,) but if a man could not commit this sin before he die, he could not be seen so to sin, which sin is described, (Heb.10:29,) therefore final unbelief is not this sin here spoken of.
To conclude, Christ died not for the sins of the entire world; for Christ saith that he laid down his life for his sheep, (John10:15) and that the reason why some (the majority) did not believe, is because they were not of his sheep.
John 10:26
“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.”Acts 13:48
“And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”The end of redemption is application, (Phil.1:29, John 6:37,39); and the scripture saith that Christ took upon him the seed of Abraham, Heb.2:16, and how Abraham’s seed is considered, appears (Galatians 3:16, 22, 29); for such as are Christ’s, are such as believe, and are Abraham’s seed; and seeing all Adam’s posterity cannot be considered to be Abraham’s seed in no sense, therefore there is no ground to conceive/teach that Christ died for the sins of all the seed of Adam, as you and others affirm. affirm.
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats the perfect context to see Christ died for the elect and you dis it.
civic
Active Member
It’s nowhere in scripture
The real question is will you?
My statement was Christ died for all.
I gave scripture.
where have you addressed then?
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
You simply have a wrong view of the atonement
There you go once again assuming everyone who Christ died for has their sins forgiven
Even the Calvinist Shedd notes the defect
It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year.
William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.
Maybe you should stop ignoring the scriptures I posted
Sorry, that is called eisegesis
There is no mention of the elect here, nor does the term elect define the terms used
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Will you ever believe scripture?
God has reconciled the world to himself. It is now up to those in the world to be reconciled.
2 Corinthians 5:19–20 (NASB95) — 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
That not what the verse says. It says God is reconciling the world, every person who has ever lived according to some, to Himself. The only person mentioned in this verse is God. Is He succesful?
@TomL
Tom, I have answered your scriptures a few times over last year, and all you do is post them again as though they went unanswered. I would be happy to do so again, only if you would address my answers of those scriptures that you post over and over again. I'll address them alter today, if time permits, but for sure by tomorrow~no problem.
Tom, I'm not a typical Calvinist, as you should know, but will know once I begin to post answering your weak arguments. Shedd is a half baked Calvinist, I have never read very much of his writings, because he not much different than the average Armenians.
brightfame52
Active Member
You cant see it
