The Issue of Limited Atonement

[The Rogue Tomato]

I'm not going to take a stand on whether or not atonement is limited or sufficient for all because I honestly don't know.

I'd just like to hear from non-Calvinists as to how they reconcile their view of atonement with the fact that not all people will be saved. Isn't that, by definition, limited atonement? Or is there another explanation?

 

[TibiasDad]

I'm not going to take a stand on whether or not atonement is limited or sufficient for all because I honestly don't know.

I'd just like to hear from non-Calvinists as to how they reconcile their view of atonement with the fact that not all people will be saved. Isn't that, by definition, limited atonement? Or is there another explanation?

Easy, some (most) people don’t believe what the gospel says, for reasons too innumerable to mention.

Doug

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Easy, some (most) people don’t believe what the gospel says, for reasons too innumerable to mention.

Doug

That doesn't answer my question, though. Does that mean there's limited atonement?

 

[TibiasDad]

That doesn't answer my question, though. Does that mean there's limited atonement?

There is a difference between limit atonement and limited acceptance. Limited atonement means that not everyone’s sins are covered by the blood and thus those not covered cannot ever be saved.

Limit acceptance does not mean that those not believing are incapable of believing or not covered by the blood, but only that they refuse to believe.

The atonement is not limited to a few but covers “the sins of the whole world” that are never repented of or confessed, not just “our sins”, the sins of believers.

All sins are covered! All mankind are capable of being saved. The only limitation is caused by our refusal to believe in and embrace the truth of the gospel. God has already done all that needs to be done that he can do.

Doug

 

[Behold]

I'd just like to hear from non-Calvinists as to how they reconcile their view of atonement with the fact that not all people will be saved.

God accepts anyone's faith in Christ, as "Faith is counted as (Christ's) Righteousness"..

However, not all will believe.. .not all will give God their faith in Jesus.

The Cross is aways inviting the world to "come and be forgiven".

Not all will come., and this is a Choice that a person makes on earth, that God honors forever after you die.

A person says....>"but why would anyone who has a BRAIN, not come to God and be forgiven".


A.) """to open their eyes and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith that is in Me.’

AA.) ""In whom the god of this world hath Blinded the MINDS.... of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

There is a difference between limit atonement and limited acceptance. Limited atonement means that not everyone’s sins are covered by the blood and thus those not covered cannot ever be saved.

Limit acceptance does not mean that those not believing are incapable of believing or not covered by the blood, but only that they refuse to believe.

The atonement is not limited to a few but covers “the sins of the whole world” that are never repented of or confessed, not just “our sins”, the sins of believers.

All sins are covered! All mankind are capable of being saved. The only limitation is caused by our refusal to believe in and embrace the truth of the gospel. God has already done all that needs to be done that he can do.

Doug

That's the reasoning offered by Calvinists. The atonement is sufficient for all, but only efficient for the elect. I was expecting a non-Calvinist answer.

 

[Bronson]

Limited atonement, I don't think so
While it is probably true to say that the major thrust for a limitation of the divine intent in the application of the atoning work of Christ is connected logically to the Calvinist’s notion of election, their appeal is often made to certain scriptures that seem to support a limited atonement.

John 10:11, Etc.
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.”

John 15:13, 14
“Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you.”

Acts 20:28
“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.”

Ephesians 5:25
“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her.”

Romans 8:33, 34
“Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.”

Ephesians 1:7, 8
“In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight.”

There is no doubt that these passages, and others that could be appealed to, speak of Christ dying for a particular group—that is not in dispute. However, this fact does not necessarily preclude Christ having died for others who not of the elect.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I'm not going to take a stand on whether or not atonement is limited or sufficient for all because I honestly don't know.

I'd just like to hear from non-Calvinists as to how they reconcile their view of atonement with the fact that not all people will be saved. Isn't that, by definition, limited atonement? Or is there another explanation?

What Jesus did is infinitly "Sufficient" - it's the PERFECT SIN OFFERING.

And then there's ROmans nine, and the fact that NOBODY COMES TO CHRIST unless Father God draws them to Him. And then there's OUR PART - repent, and call on God for Salvation, and of course there's Mat 7:14 - FEW FIND THE WAY.

 

[TibiasDad]

That's the reasoning offered by Calvinists. The atonement is sufficient for all, but only efficient for the elect. I was expecting a non-Calvinist answer.

It is a non-Calvinistic answer. The Calvinist position says that the non-elect have been predetermined to suffer death, so they will never have an opportunity for salvation, even though Christ’s blood would be sufficient for had God allowed it to be applied.

The atonement is for all, and all are capable of being saved and are divinely desired to be saved. But God has placed a contingency, a requirement of belief to be saved. The very fact that I believe that all people may be saved means I am nothing like a Calvinist.

Doug

 

[Rockson]

That's the reasoning offered by Calvinists. The atonement is sufficient for all, but only efficient for the elect. I was expecting a non-Calvinist answer.

It's nothing like a Calvinist answer that Doug gave. Not even in the slightest.

Limited Atonement is held by Calvinists in that only some will be saved and can be saved. The other poster never said that at all. He basically said there's limited acceptance of what God has provided for all. Calvinists DON'T believe it's offered to all.

Analogy: A company make sure there's coupons put in everyone's mailbox in a certain city. There's no limit to how many in the city can redeem the benefit. If they do their part they'll receive. Problem is not all will come. There's a limit therefore on how many will experience the grace the company is offering.

 

[TedT]

I'm not going to take a stand on whether or not atonement is limited or sufficient for all because I honestly don't know.

I'd just like to hear from non-Calvinists as to how they reconcile their view of atonement with the fact that not all people will be saved. Isn't that, by definition, limited atonement? Or is there another explanation?

I am decidedly not a Calvinist but I do believe in a limited atonement for sinful mankind because I believe that by our free will response to YHWH's claims to be our GOD and Saviour all of those HE created in HIS image, that is, able to be a proper bride for HIM, we were separated into three groups:
1. those who rebuked HIM as a liar and therefore a false god, thereby becoming condemned as never believers, Jn 3:18, and
2. those who accepted HIM by faith, an unproven hope, to be their GOD and saviour from all sin thereby becoming HIS elect and
3. a small part of the elect who, once they were elect and therefore free from hell, went their own way into rebellion choosing to become HIS sheep gone astray into sin, needing redemption and sanctification.

Berean Standard Bible
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is [already] not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not [ever] believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. A believer by faith who sins puts Christ on the cross. A non or never believer who sins is condemned to hell.

Two types of sinners: one under election and the atonement, one not.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Is limited atonement, which most Calvinists prefer to call “particular redemption,” biblical? Is it consistent with the love of God shown in Jesus Christ and expressed in the New Testament many times in many ways?

I believe that Christ died for every single human person in such a way as to secure their salvation without requiring it or making it certain. They still need to exercise their free will by accepting the gift of salvation or rejecting it.

 

[civic]

I'm not going to take a stand on whether or not atonement is limited or sufficient for all because I honestly don't know.

I'd just like to hear from non-Calvinists as to how they reconcile their view of atonement with the fact that not all people will be saved. Isn't that, by definition, limited atonement? Or is there another explanation?

Nowhere in Scripture does it say Christ ONLY died for the elect:

Limited atonement is unbiblical

1-He died for ALL (1 Tim. 2:6).

2-He died for ALL MEN (Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 4:10).

3-He died for US ALL, for ALL OF US (Isa. 53:6).

4-He died for the UNGODLY (Rom. 5:6).

5-He died for CHRIST-DENIERS (2 Peter 2:1).

6-He died for SINNERS (Rom. 5:8).

7-He died for EVERY MAN (Heb. 2:9).

8-He died for MANY not few (Matthew 20:28).

9-He died for the WORLD (John 6:33,51;
John 1:29 and John 3:16).

10-He died for the WHOLE WORLD (1 John 2:2).

11-He died for the WHOLE NATION of Israel (John 11:50-51).

12-He died for the CHURCH (Eph. 5:25).

13-He died for His SHEEP (John 10:11).

14-He died for ME (Gal. 2:20).

hope this helps !!!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I'm not going to take a stand on whether or not atonement is limited or sufficient for all because I honestly don't know.

I'd just like to hear from non-Calvinists as to how they reconcile their view of atonement with the fact that not all people will be saved. Isn't that, by definition, limited atonement? Or is there another explanation?

Atonement is DEFINITELY limited (not everybody will be saved).

It's "Sufficiency" isn't the issue. Romans 9 is. Also John 6:44 says that a person CAN NOT come to Jesus UNLESS they're DRAWN by Father to Him. And there are FEW that find the way (Mat 7:14).

Calvinists have created a "Theory of election" claiming that God, BEFORE CREATION, Elected those who would become Born Again. The flip side of that is that, by purpose, or default, God "Elected" people to send to HELL, and nobody has any choice in the matter.

So I DO Know Biblically that a significant proportion of humanity WILL NOT be Born Again, But anything more than that would be rank speculation.

 

[Diserner]

I'm not going to take a stand on whether or not atonement is limited or sufficient for all because I honestly don't know.

I'd just like to hear from non-Calvinists as to how they reconcile their view of atonement with the fact that not all people will be saved. Isn't that, by definition, limited atonement? Or is there another explanation?

Conflating two aspects of the atonement as if they can only be treated as one.

The atonement always has and always will be in two parts and stages.

Christ was sufficient for all in extent, but specific to each in application.

Only in Christ himself is the atonement made, thus to benefit, one must be joined to Christ.

 

[TomL]

I'm not going to take a stand on whether or not atonement is limited or sufficient for all because I honestly don't know.

I'd just like to hear from non-Calvinists as to how they reconcile their view of atonement with the fact that not all people will be saved. Isn't that, by definition, limited atonement? Or is there another explanation?

No

You must understand the different aspects of the atonement

There is the extent of the atonement - that answers the question of who Christ died for

and there is the application of the atonement - that answers who is saved by it

one need not be equal to the other

Calvinism assumes they are the same because they believe all Christ died for must be saved. Their view of the atonement is that of a commercial transaction. You pay the money, you get the goods

non Calvinists hold they are not. They recognize the conditional aspect of the atonement. They hold it is for all, but one must believe to receive its benefits

When one speaks of a limited versus an unlimited atonement, it is the extent which is being discussed, not the application.

 

[Behold]

"Limited atonement" is a rejection of John 3:16 and is an insult to the Blood of Jesus and the Cross of Christ.

This hellish teaching, from one of the Devil's finest (Calvin) teaches that if God predestined you to be saved, before you are born, then you are OF the "limited atonement" pre-destined.
So, that doctrine of devils, is probably the worst THEOLOGICAL offender of the Cross, that the Devil has ever created.

Calvinism is a cancer on the Body of Christ.

There are many many issues, with this nonsense, theology.

Of of them is this.... and no Deceived Calvinist can understand this...

1.) """ALL have SINNED"""", so NONE deserve to be saved.

WE, every human being, is equal, here... = "Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS".. not the pre-destined to be saved, as John Calvinism teaches as HIS LIE.

Noone has a right to be chosen, while other sinners, are not..

Why?

Because "ALL have sinned" and that means all of humanity is the same... and Calvinism, is literally trying to prove that for NO REASON at all, God chose YOU, but didnt choose your MOTHER, to be one of the "elect".

Or..

God chose your Grandmother, but not your Grandfather.

So, once you SEE that......then suddenly you can realize just how STUPID and how RIDICULOUS< is : John Calvinism.

Some will never see it, and that is why they tell you they are "CALVINIST's" and not "Christians" as these deceived people, believe that they are the SAME... and they are not the same,

Let me show you..

1.) GOD makes CHRISTians

2.) CALVIN makes Calvinist's.

Understand ????


God is not a Calvinist.
Jesus is not a Calvinist
The Apostle Paul is not a Calvinist.
CALVINISM is not Christianity.

 

[TomL]

I'm not going to take a stand on whether or not atonement is limited or sufficient for all because I honestly don't know.

I'd just like to hear from non-Calvinists as to how they reconcile their view of atonement with the fact that not all people will be saved. Isn't that, by definition, limited atonement? Or is there another explanation?

There are three aspect of the atonement to be considered

The intent

The extent

and the application of the atonement

The intent answers the qustion - what was God's purpose in the atonement?

The extent answers the question - who did Christ die for?
The application - who benefits from the atonement?

When Calvinist and non Calvinist debate limited or unlimited atonement they are dealing with the extent

Who did Christ die for?

Non Calvinist and many early reformers hold to a unlimited atonement

Modern Calvinist with the exception of Amyraldean ( 4 point) Calvinists argue for a limited atonement

 

[Bronson]

I'm not going to take a stand on whether or not atonement is limited or sufficient for all because I honestly don't know.

I'd just like to hear from non-Calvinists as to how they reconcile their view of atonement with the fact that not all people will be saved. Isn't that, by definition, limited atonement? Or is there another explanation?

Christ died as a final and complete substitute, providing salvation for Adam’s race, but not everyone will choose the free gift of salvation that he offers.

It all depends on the way someone's respond to the gospel.

The message of personal salvation must include, first, the fact that all stand guilty and condemned before God. Second, it must set forth the Lord Jesus Christ as the only Substitute for sin and sinners. Third, the need for personal faith or trust in Christ alone as the individual’s sinbearer is essential. Salvation is all of God from start to finish. Salvation is a gift from God. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

This means there are three absolute essentials in the message of salvation. It must include (1) something about personal sin; (2) the substitutionary death of Christ for the sinner; and (3) faith or trust in Christ’s finished work. No one can become a child of God unless he acknowledges his lost and condemned position before God. No one can become a child of God unless he believes what the Bible says about the substitutionary death of Christ. And by the same token, no one can become a child of God unless and until he accepts the work of Christ on the cross as a payment for his sin.

 

[Rockson]

I'd just like to hear from non-Calvinists as to how they reconcile their view of atonement with the fact that not all people will be saved. Isn't that, by definition, limited atonement? Or is there another explanation?

But you're blurring the lines of subjects under discussion.

In the classic discussion of limited atonement comparing with unlimited the subject matter is God (according to you) only meant and intended for the benefits of salvation to be realized by only a few. Non-Calvinists of course DO NOT believe such a thing. They believe, that is we believe he meant it for all. That by definition is UNLIMITED in scope.

But a different subject of discussion is THIS. Will all come and receive the grace and mercy of God that's extended to them? NO. So it's LIMITED in the experience of all seeing it manifested BUT NOT LIMITED in the offer which has been extended to all! All can have the experience and the relationship with God so there's your answer. It's not only clear but it's crystal clear.