He doesn't have to. The Lord will reveal both the fool and the foolish one. If we are led of the Spirit? We will see for ourselves.
The Hypostatic Union- the 2 Natures in Christ
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GeneZ
Well-known member
According to him? Are all who do act foolishly to have diplomatic immunity?
Painful to say...
In a hypocritical way he was the one who was trigger happy, firing away with accusations of "Heresy This! Heresy That! "
Now he acts like an innocent little lamb?
Like he has not done the very things what he now accuses others of doing?
... sad to witness to.Frustrating because God desires him to prosper gloriously in spite of stubborn resistance.
Before any of us can be blessed we must face corrections that expose us to our own denials and errors...
The following are not my words.
That means they apply 100% to me as well as to all of us.
Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid.' Proverbs 12:1
Yes, I am stupid if I refuse correction when shown.
A correction is not given by superficially citing a name of some heresy, or telling someone to wander over to another web page, to read through pages of information that are citing that person's opinions. Such an argument would be thrown out of any competent court because its not justice.
Corrections come by citing what is being distorted. And, then countering with a corrected understanding to give the other person a chance to see how he has got something wrong.
A correction is not done by hanging banners over what was said with a name of some heresy written over it..
That method is like protesting and picketing by a mob carrying signs.
Its not by majority vote either. For every lynching was done by majority vote.
God is dealing with the Adam nature that refuses and can be slow to quit even though its been handed its death certificate.
grace and peace ..........................
civic
Well-known member
Everyone I invited to this forum I considered them as friends. You don’t have to agree with someone on everything to consider them as a friend.
I'm not the one itching to call others foolish.
Now as for heresies there are precise definitions for all known heresies. If my beliefs align with any one of those heresies then by all means please do tell me so that I can correct myself. I said that at least once during our conversations. This is constructive as opposed to being nihilistic when one calls another foolish.
GeneZ
Well-known member
That is not the same thing as when the word "heresy" is bantered about as a means to appear to nullify what was said, when it does not.
Something that was said. I broke it down with chapter and verse.
Something that was being not correctly understood by you and the duo...
What I said reminded someone of issues covered in a heresy, but it was not the same thing as the heresy.
Just the same? Because the reader could not grasp what was explained?
It got rudely slopped onto a heresy plate, and slid down to the end of the bar and out of sight.
and ............. grace and peace just the same.
charismaticlady
Active member
I agree. Not anymore. According to John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." Jesus now has the God qualities that only God has, the 3 omnis.
But before He received back what He emptied himself of to become human, He still possessed the seed of the Father, which we as born again Christians also have. So Jesus is not the only human that can be sinless. He showed us His sinless behavior from birth, and that is the only difference. All because Christ's blood could make us like Him.
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GeneZ
Well-known member
When he emptied himself of all His right to the powers that are God?
What was left? His human Soul.
The seed of the Father you speak of is not mentioned in Scripture. It does sound good... But it is not Scripture.
What we have is the "seed of the Holy Spirit."
Jesus said to Nicodemus that what is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Our human spirit is what the Spirit "begets" in us. That being... our 'human spirit.'
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." John 3:6
At regeneration the born again believer becomes body, soul, and human spirit."
The human spirit is not to be mistaken for the indwelling Holy spirit.
For we have become body, soul, and human spirit.
May the God who gives us peace make you holy in every way and
keep your whole being—spirit, soul, and body—free from every fault
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thes 5:23
For the Church age believers? Not the OT believers. We receive an additional gift when born again.
That new gift is the Indwelling Holy Spirit which is not to be confused for our human spirit that all receive at regeneration.
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children." Romans 8:16
grace and peace......
civic
Well-known member
This is incorrect since regeneration and the new birth are identical and happen at the same time. Regeneration is a synonym of being born again , new birth etc
And nor was he, just another one of your misunderstandings.
Jesus didn't need to be regenerated if that is what you are trying to say. Unfortunately, what you are claiming he said as being incorrect isn't very clear. Do you think regeneration is the gift of the Holy Spirit? Do you think He is begetting Himself? I'm really not sure what you think is the error.
GeneZ
Well-known member
When did Jesus tell Nicodemus he needed to be born again?
Was Moses spiritually dead? Did Moses have a human spirit?
civic
Well-known member
Jesus didn't need regeneration /the new birth since He was God, Holy Sinless.
civic
Well-known member
All men have a spirit/soul its what makes man being made in the image of God means. The image of God never changed.
Spiritually dead is nothing but a misnomer.
And spirit/soul are used interchangeable as synonyms throughout the N.T.
You are conflating the spirit in man with the spirit of God.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Dismantling the misnomer and false doctrine of the spiritually dead below.
Adam who was “spiritually “dead hid from God in the garden and was able to communicate with God and understand Him. In the day you eat you shall surely die. So adam sinned and was spiritually dead and yet could communicate with God and understand God. “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” (Genesis 3:10)
Luke 16:27-31 -“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Above we see that Jesus declared the physical dead and spiritual dead can respond to spiritual things. The dead spiritual/physical dead man is pleading for his own brother’s life.
Jesus declares in John 5:25, “An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” Here Jesus says the spiritually dead can and will hear him
In Mark 2:17 Jesus said, “"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." The sick/spiritually dead can hear and understand Jesus- the sinner who is dead in their sins can understand.
In Romans 1 we read of the spiritually dead that they can perceive God and that Gods handiwork is self-evident to them and that the things of God are clearly seen by them so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20- For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”
Below we see Jesus tell the "spiritually dead " pharisees that they refuse to come to Jesus so that they can have/receive life.
This is the complete opposite of what some religions teach. Jesus lets those dead pharisees know if they come to Jesus they can have life just as John taught in John 1:12-13 and Jesus taught Nicodemus in John 3:16-18. Belief in Him always precedes life. As I have mentioned before this is consistent with Jesus teachings throughout the gospels. He said no less than 13 times that- YOUR FAITH has saved you, healed, you, made you well. Not the faith that He gave them , saved them. It was THEIR OWN FAITH THAT SAVED THEM. When one placed their faith in Him they will be saved, have life, be regenerate, receive eternal life, salvation. Those conditions are taught by all the apostles and writers of the N.T.
John 5
“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?
The result is our regeneration, life, salvation, eternal life, new birth, born again- all synonyms. Don't let anyone conflate them.
John 7:17
Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
Psalm 25:9
He guides the humble in what is right and teaches them His way.
Psalm 25:14
The LORD confides in those who fear Him, and reveals His covenant to them.
Acts 17:11-12
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.
Acts 17:30-31
30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone
so we can see from the above that salvation is for everyone and God commands everyone to repent.
Gods law is to bring one to repentance and reveal one sin.
The law reveals our sin and imperfections that brings one to humble themselves and repent . Out inability to do something God commands like be perfect does not mean we cannot admit our imperfections and inability to be perfect and to rely upon Him for our perfection and not on ones self righteousness. When one understands they cannot save themselves and relies upon God for their salvation they can and will be saved. Repenting is something we do, believing is something we do, saving is what God does. He commands everyone to repent and those who do will be saved. Salvation is for everyone and everyone can repent. God saves those who repent of their sins and believe the gospel. The teaching of Jesus and the publican demonstrates the above is true without regeneration preceding repentance and belief .
Below we read Paul is reasoning with the heathen Greeks and the unbelieving Jews(spiritually dead ) at Corinth. So by using reasoning, logic and persuasion the Apostle converts many of the over the next couple of years. This is how apologetics are used to persuade unbelievers who can understand the scriptures when reasoned well by the Apologist.
Acts 18
After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them. 4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
5 When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. 6 But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”
7 Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. 8 Crispus, the synagogue leader, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard Paul believed and were baptized.
9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: “Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. 10 For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city.” 11 So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
12 While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews of Corinth made a united attack on Paul and brought him to the place of judgment. 13 “This man,” they charged, “is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law.”
14 Just as Paul was about to speak, Gallio said to them, “If you Jews were making a complaint about some misdemeanor or serious crime, it would be reasonable for me to listen to you. 15 But since it involves questions about words and names and your own law—settle the matter yourselves. I will not be a judge of such things.” 16 So he drove them off. 17 Then the crowd there turned on Sosthenes the synagogue leader and beat him in front of the proconsul; and Gallio showed no concern whatever.
Acts 14:1
At Iconium, Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue, where they spoke so well that a great number of Jews and Greeks believed.
Acts 17:2
As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Acts 18:19
When they reached Ephesus, Paul parted ways with Priscilla and Aquila. He himself went into the synagogue there and reasoned with the Jews.
Acts 19:26
Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:
Matthew 16:15-17
He[Jesus]said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Luke 15:11-32
And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. 13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. 14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ 20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.
25 “Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and sound.’ 28 But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, 29 but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’ 31 And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’”
Now notice that the Son was the following :
A ) he was dead
B ) he was lost
So we have a dead son who was lost and on his own realized that he was better off as a slave back at his Fathers house. So as one who is dead he realized his lost state and was able to make his own decision to repent and return to his Fathers house and become a servant. This is the opposite of what Calvinists teach.
We know that Salvation is of the Lord . We know that the Father was not obligated to forgive and restore the son. The son recognized his sin and repented of it and his Father forgave and restored him. The son humbled himself, God didn't, the son repented, God didn't do that for him by granting it to him, the dead son returned home, the Father did not call him home. The Father restored the son after the son repented . Calvinists conflate Gods salvation( Savior ) and mans responsibility to humble themselves and repent of their sin.
hope this helps !!!
GeneZ
Well-known member
All men have a spirit/soul its what makes man being made in the image of God means. The image of God never changed.
Spiritually dead is nothing but a misnomer.
And spirit/soul are used interchangeable as synonyms throughout the N.T.
You are conflating the spirit in man with the spirit of God.
hope this helps !!!
May I ask where you received you Bible training from, since you are a pastor?
civic
Well-known member
I’m not a pastor but a leader of small groups, home groups and men’s discipleship at my church. I’m a teacher at church not outside of church. I could be considered a shepherd at church like an overseer/elder but I’m not a preacher, that’s not my gift.
GeneZ
Well-known member
OK... thanks. I was under a wrong impression.
Which is what I said and if you think that is what @GeneZ was saying, (Jesus needed regeneration) I think you need to go and reread the post.
GeneZ
Well-known member
I will cut to the chase.
What do you do with the following?
To another he said, “Follow me.” But he said, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.”
And Jesus said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead.
But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:59-60
What were the "dead" who were to bury their own dead? I believe they were unregenerate. "Spiritually dead."
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