The Grace of God : Is the Cross of Christ

[Behold]

So, reader...

Why is the Cross of Christ, the Grace of God. ?

Its because God offers no other "WAY" for us to be rejoined to God, spiritually.

John 14:6

The Cross of Christ, removes the SIN barrier, that is keeping the unbeliever and God's Spirit, "un-reconciled".

Jesus on the Cross, is the Blood Atonement, the New Covenant, the "reconciliation" between "fallen mankind" and God Himself.

This Is God's Grace hanging on the Cross, 2000 yrs ago... for the sin of the world.

And God "impute" this "Gift of Righteousness", "Christ's righteousness" .. this "Gift of Salvation" who is JESUS.......to anyone who will give God their faith in Christ.

"faith is counted as (Christ's) righteousness"

"justification by Faith".

Titus 3​

"""not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to God's mercy, He saved us"

And How did He do that?

By "Grace through Faith".

By the Cross of Christ who is the Blood Atonement... who is the GRACE of God., virgin born, and resurrected from the Dead.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The sacrifice of christ is John 3:16
"For God so loved the WORLD"....
"WORLD"...
"that He GAVE" = JESUS
Notice this verse.
"Jesus came into the WORLD......to save SINNERS"
See this world "WORLD".
It means "WORLD",, ,
Now look at this verse.
Jesus said..."If i be lifted up (on the Cross), i will draw ALL (everyone) to me".
A.) WORLD..... ALL.......EVERYONE.
Welcome to : Salvation.
Its Jesus come for us ALL., and not just the "elect" as John Calvinism (= edited ) teaches., as this false teaching denies the Cross.

There are three Greek words translated "world" in the KJV.

In other words, ONE English word to translate three different Greek words.

Greek Strong’s Number: G#165: αἰών
Transliteration: aiōn
Phonetic Pronunciation: ahee-ohn’ Root: from the same as G#104
Defined as: "age."

Greek Word: G#2889 κόσμος
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Pronunciation: kos’-mos
probably from the base of G#2865 (komizo); orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitant, literal or figurative [moral])



Greek Word: G#3625 οἰκουμένη
Transliteration: oikoumenē
Phonetic Pronunciation: oy-kou-men’-ay
feminine participle presumed passive of G#3611 (oikeo) (as noun, by implication of G#1093 (ge)); land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially the Roman empire.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16.

World here is "kosmos."

Now, I know you've been taught that John wrote this Jewish history of Israel's Jewish Messiah to Gentiles, but He didn't. All the writings of the New Covenant God made with the House of Israel (Jer. 31) were written by Jewish Christians to other Jewish Christians, specifically to the Jewish churches that dotted Asia Minor (Corinth, Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonica, etc.), since all these churches were founded by Jewish Christians.
John is a Jewish Christ-follower. An apostle. As a Jewish Christian he writes this historical to the Jews and other Jewish Christians about the life of Israel's Messiah, Jesus Messiah/Christ so that Jews might believe that Jesus is the Christ, THEIR Christ.
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ [or that Jesus is the Messiah, Israel's Messiah], the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Jn 20:31.

Since John writes to the Jews so they might believe that Jesus is their Messiah there is only one word which comprises the inhabitants of the covenant and that are the Jews. They are the "world" in context to John's referencing them as the "world."
Another thing is Jesus Christ as High Priest about to offer Himself for the sins of His people Israel.
In John 17 Jesus as High Priest prays to the Father. Martin Luther calls this prayer in John 17 as the "Holy of Holies" prayer for Jesus does the two things under the Law that a high priest is commanded by God to do, and that is,
1. Pray for the people of God, and,
2. Offer sacrifices for the people of God [Himself.]

Now, if God actually loved everybody in the whole wide world on the planet He right here and right now before going to the cross PRAY for the world, but He doesn't. And He is clear to say that He doesn't:
First, He prays for Himself:

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Jn 17:1–5.

Then, Jesus as High Priest prays for His apostles:

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Jn 17:6–9.

Notice Jesus as High Priest prays FOR THEM.
Verse 9 also says, "I pray NOT for the world."

Basically, the world is without a prayer and Jesus as High Priest about to go to the cross for the sins of Jacob/Israel DOES NOT PRAY FOR THE WORLD.
So, "world" in John 3:16 is in context to whom God is said to love and to whom Jesus Christ came to atone for their sins.
If there was any time for God to pray for the world at large it would be right here and now before He goes to the cross. But He didn't and He doesn't.
Yeah, this kinda throws your theology and beliefs out the door doesn't it. I mean, if you were an obedient Christian that takes the Word of God as written and not insert your own pet theories and personal beliefs but takes the Word of God as written.
Jonah says, Salvation is of the LORD. Paul says that God says in the OT "I will have mercy on whomever I want to have mercy."
Jesus also says:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light [CHRIST] is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light [CHRIST], because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light [CHRIST], neither cometh to the light [CHRIST], lest his deeds should be reproved. Jn 3:19–20.

So, the world loves darkness rather than Christ.
The world hates Christ.
The world neither/doesn't come to Christ.

Paul said the same thing:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Rom. 3:11–12.

That's why "Salvation is of the LORD" and God has to do the saving. And as per covenant God saves the people He came to and that is the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And the "world" at large are not Israel.

Receive the Word of Christ. Read John 17 and see the distinction Jesus makes in His prayer between "THEM" and the "World."
Two groups of people. One High Priest.
Christ did not love the "world" neither prayed for the "world" and to be as clear as possible as a result of this truth the world are without a prayer (as they say.)

 

[jeremiah1five]

Here is what you have not yet understood @jeremiah1five

Jesus told you..

"Paul is a chosen vessel unto me to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel""

Now @jeremiah1five

The reason the GENTILES are listed FIRST...

is because when the Cross was raised, the "Time of the Gentiles" began, and Paul is the "Apostle to the Gentiles"

This explain why Paul wrote 13 Epistles, and all the Church Doctrine.

This is why Paul told you "follow ME... as i follow Christ".

This means that we emulate His life, (walk of faith)..... and learn His doctrine......most of all.

Start here.

Romans 3:21-28

Hebrews 13:9

2nd Corinthians 5:19

As long as the Temple stood it was a Time of the Jews and the New Covenant Church was founded by Jews. Jews that came to one of the three very important Jewish Feasts God commanded that males do every year were 3000 saved on the day of the Feast of Harvests. These Jews came from all over the then-known world, were saved and filled with the Holy Spirit and when they went back to their homes in Gentile lands took Jesus with them and more churches were founded by Jews that were saved through their testimony as Jesus' prayer in John 17 says, that others might be saved because of their testimony.
One scholar places the beginning of the Times of the Gentiles as around A.D. 68, but I put it later. As long as the Temple stood the "ism" of Judaism remained and being a Jewish Covenant and Christ building His Church it was populated by Jews and Jewish Christians.

And remember, the New Covenant writers (Peter, James, Paul, John, etc.) were Jewish Christians and wrote to other Jewish Christians and discussed Jewish issues like the covenant, Moses, Abraham, their history, their culture, the religion, their practices and their promises of God to them by their YHWH.

 

[Behold]

There are three Greek words translated "world" in the KJV.

This is a NEW TESTAMENT verse.
Its given by a NEW Testament, Apostle, based on the NEW Covenant.
= All NT's understand "world" as 'ALL" as God sent His Son for us ALL, for Everyone.

Its deceived CALVINST's who can't comprehend that WORLD means EVERYONE. = WORLD. John 3:16

-
New International Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

New Living Translation
“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

English Standard Version
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Berean Standard Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Berean Literal Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life.

King James Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

New King James Version
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

New American Standard Bible
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

NASB 1995
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

NASB 1977
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Legacy Standard Bible
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Amplified Bible
“For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Christian Standard Bible
For God loved the world in this way: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
“For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

American Standard Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For God loved the world in this way: so much that he would give up his Son, The Only One, so that everyone who trusts in him shall not be lost, but he shall have eternal life.

Contemporary English Version
God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

English Revised Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God loved the world this way: He gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.

Good News Translation
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life.

International Standard Version
"For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.

Literal Standard Version
for God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him may not perish, but may have continuous life.

Majority Standard Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

New American Bible
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

NET Bible
For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

 

[jeremiah1five]

This is a NEW TESTAMENT verse.
Its given by a NEW Testament, Apostle, based on the NEW Covenant.
= All NT's understand "world" as 'ALL" as God sent His Son for us ALL, for Everyone.

Its deceived CALVINST's who can't comprehend that WORLD means EVERYONE. = WORLD. John 3:16

-
New International Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

New Living Translation
“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

English Standard Version
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Berean Standard Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Berean Literal Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life.

King James Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

New King James Version
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

New American Standard Bible
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

NASB 1995
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

NASB 1977
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Legacy Standard Bible
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Amplified Bible
“For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Christian Standard Bible
For God loved the world in this way: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
“For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

American Standard Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For God loved the world in this way: so much that he would give up his Son, The Only One, so that everyone who trusts in him shall not be lost, but he shall have eternal life.

Contemporary English Version
God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

English Revised Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God loved the world this way: He gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.

Good News Translation
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life.

International Standard Version
"For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.

Literal Standard Version
for God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him may not perish, but may have continuous life.

Majority Standard Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

New American Bible
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

NET Bible
For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

As I said, If Christ did not "pray for the world" (John 17:9) at a time when He was as High Priest before God going to offer Himself for the sins of His people then your "world" and "all" are without a prayer. If Christ didn't pray for "you" when it was TIME to do so, you can post every translation of John 3:16 known to man the fact remains, His atonement was in accordance to covenant and prophecy and only those in covenant will receive the blessing of what He did.

What does the New Covenant say?

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
Jer. 32:39–42.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom. 11:26–27.

Not the "worlds."

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jer. 31:33–34.

God made covenant with the children of Israel NOT the world.
The "world" is without a prayer for Jesus Christ, Israel's Messiah, Redeemer, and King did not pray for "the world" when it came time to offer sacrifice.
The non-covenant "world" is in deep doo-doo.
And that's real.

 

[Behold]

As I said, If Christ did not "pray for the world"

Can we deal with The Cross and beyond, and Not try to present Christ's dealing with the House of Israel, as God dealing with the Gentiles, "in the time of the Gentiles" that is John 3:16 = After the Cross was raised and the New Covenant was in Place.

Your commentary does not realize that John 17:9, is not talking about "sinners', ... its talking about the "men" that God gave Jesus, for His ministry.

Read vs 6, and see if you can figure this out.

 

[Behold]

As long as

Let me show you what your issue is, and why you can't realize what im showing you.

Its because your theology, and your belief system is not based on discerning the Scripture.

Its based on " this church father said and wrote" ..... Its based on "this scholar said".. and 'this one teaches"...

See, you are not responding as a BIBLE Believer., or as a real student of the NT, according to Paul's Theology.
Not at all.
You are responding as the typical "ive studed all the teachers, church fathers... scholars, and commentaries", and they have led you away from the word.

That always happens.

Hebrews 13:9 is not a myth.
its tells you that if you DON'T get your heart grounded in Grace, and that means Paul's doctrine, then "doctrines of devils" which is... all that teaching from 1000 sources that all contradict, becomes your confused REFERENCE.
And that is what has happened to you.. And that is why all you can use as your "proof text" is..

""""""What this man said.
What this other man teaches.
My Commentary teaches.
Let me show you what this church father thinks, but this other one said this....""""

See that?
That is how to NOT learn anything, correctly, and you are right in the middle of it. @jeremiah1five

And you'll now post something else by some other MAN who isn't PAUL.

Go ahead, as its all you have left.

 

[civic]

In John 17 Jesus does pray for the world

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

 

[civic]

The same world He made propitiation/ atonement for as we read below .

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Behold]

The same world He made propitiation/ atonement for as we read below .

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Amen.

"God hath made Jesus to be sin for Us"

"Jesus is the ONE TIME.... Eternal ... Sacrifice for sin".

How does that work out?

2nd Corinthians 5:19

John 3:17

Romans 4:8

 

[Doug Brents]

I ask many what is the "Law of Christ", and they can't seem to give me a definite answer.
Your answer will determine my response.

The law of Christ is the New Covenant (NC). It is not the Law of Moses, and only relates to it in so far as the commands of the Law of Moses were restated by Christ and/or the Apostles in the NC. For example, the commandment to not murder was included in the NC, but was expanded to include not only the act, but the feeling of hatred as well. Adultery was condemned in the NC, but not only that but lust was condemned as well. But things like circumcision of male children on the eighth day was not included in the Law of Christ. And the sacrificial system was not included because Christ is the only sacrifice necessary in the NC.

OK. You know I hold that the New Covenant writings of Paul, Peter, James, John, etc., were written to Jewish Christians, but for the sake of argument (because if I recall you don't agree with this), but for the sake of argument let's say the New Covenant writers wrote to Jewish Christians in the various cities or towns in Asia Minor (Corinth, Ephesus, Philippi, etc.,) discussing Messiah's effect on their covenants and their Judaism, but you say the Gentiles had to "learn the ways of Christ in order to follow and obey Him."
My question is WHERE do they get this knowledge if indeed the Jewish Christians were writing to Jewish Christians talking about Jewish issues. The letters are dated variously and from one or two locations if we look at Paul, James may have written from Jerusalem, same with Peter. And John on Patmos in A.D. 95-110.
And isn't the way of Christ being obedience to the Law and fulfilling it? Jesus taught the Law to Israel. This is the way of Christ you mention above.

The Apostles, ministers, and preachers that took the Gospel of Christ taught the way of living that is the Law of Christ to those they converted after they brought them to belief and obedience to the Gospel. This is why in most cases they spent many days following the conversion (as detailed in Acts) with the new convert teaching and speaking with them. This additional learning was not necessary for them to become a convert, but was essential for them to continue in growing in Christ. Later, this learning was "codified" in the letters that Paul wrote to the many Churches that he helped establish.

Tell me, if you know, under the New Covenant described in Jeremiah 31, what Law is described that God was going to put in the inward parts of the people of the House of Israel?

I do not know for sure what is involved with Christ placing His law on our heart, except that I believe it is the love of Christ placed within us. There aren't many "do this", "don't do that" commandments in the NT. Everything can be boiled down to just two commands: Love God, and Love others.

Thanks for that. You have added to my knowledge and understanding, and you are right.

I appreciate that.

I have to disagree with you here. At Pentecost the Jews at the feast recognized the languages spoken by the disciples. These languages covered a great deal of territory north, south, east and west, of Israel proper. The disciples spoke the wonderful works of God. What that was isn't mentioned but I'm sure they had to do with many things concerning Israel and their covenant and the prophecies and the promises of God.
Being filled with the Holy Spirit of Promise made to Israel he would have been Israeli in mind and thoughts and would have concerned himself with Jewish things of God not Gentile mindset. Nothing else is said of him. If there was anything else significant, such as he went to Gentiles and preached Jesus it would have said so, but as a Gentile convert to the Hebrew religion it's most likely a single solitary event that fruited nothing significant.

You are not wrong that there were many Jews from many places in Jerusalem on Pentecost, and they each heard the Apostles speaking in their own native language. But what He was saying through them was not the object of our discussion above. Yes, many of these people learned about Christ, and they would have taken that information with them when they went home. But as noted in my last comment above, while these men were from all over the world, they were not from everywhere in the world. There were many towns that did not have enough Jews to set up a Synagogue (minimum 10 men). And because of this, there was not a Synagogue in every town that Paul went to to preach. So in many places he had to go to other places to find people to whom to preach.

There is no mention in the New Covenant promise of Gentiles, but there is incontrovertible statements by God that He's made this covenant with the House of Israel and Judah. Paul merely speaking about the covenant in his letters does not justify the covenant including Gentiles. If Paul even attempted to do that, he would be a false prophet and liar and no liar has eternal life living in him, John says. It has to do with interpretation and the correct interpretation would be without any doubt or hypocrisy a New Covenant God made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah: NO GENTILES.

Reread Acts 10, and the conversion of Cornelius. What is different about how Cornelius, a Gentile Roman soldier, was converted versus how the Apostles and the other 120 Jews in the upper room on Pentecost were converted? NOTHING!! The Gentiles received the Holy Spirit exactly as the Jews received the Holy Spirit. They worked miracles, they spoke in tongues, they praised God, and they were baptized into Christ as full recipients of the Covenant, and co-heirs with Christ of the Promise.

Not a part of Israel. No covenant was later modified to include Gentiles then and it shouldn't be attempted now. Any interpretation of anyone discussing the covenants God made with Israel or the prophecies must first ensure that there is no human modification to God's covenants with His Bride and Church Israel.

Gal 1:2 & 3:21-22 - "and all the brothers who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:
Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? Far from it! For if a law had been given that was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has confined everyone under sin [both Jew and Gentile], so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those [whether Jew or Gentile] who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 For you are all [both Jew or Gentile] sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus."
Galatians was written to the Churches in Galatia, which were all composed of both Jew and Gentile. Paul makes no distinction between them in his letters. In fact, he clearly indicates that they are equal partakers as recipients in the promise that was made to Abraham.

Christ invited Gentiles to salvation, not covenant for God made no covenant with Gentiles nor does He modify the New Covenant made with the House of Israel and Judah to include Gentiles.
God is saving Gentiles without covenant.

There is no such thing as salvation outside of the Covenant of God. The Covenant is the covenant of salvation, and it is through the covenant that salvation is received. No one can be saved outside of the promise of God to give salvation to those who obey Him (Heb 5:9).

Nope. Israel is commanded to not mingle with the Goyim (Gentiles) nor learn their ways.
Obedience to God is to marry a fellow covenant member. Your analogy fails when you attempt to have a covenant member marry a non-covenant member and that would make them a member of the covenant. It didn't work that way.
God gave command to covenant Israel to love only covenant Israel and for covenant Israel to marry only covenant Israel.

The analogy did not specify Jew or Gentile (there is no such thing any more according to Scripture (Gal 3:28, Eph 2:13-17, Rom 10:12)). But lets say it is you.
You, as a single man, and some other Jew make a contract. Later, you marry a Jewish woman, and then you die. She, even though she did not sign the contract, and was not party to it when it was signed, is grafted into the contract through marriage to you, because the two of you were ONE in the sight of the law and of God.
That is the position that Gentiles find themselves in today. Through belief in Christ they have been grafted into Israel, and are now partakers in the covenant promises and inheritance of Israel through Christ.

 

[Doug Brents]

What you posted is "full of lies".. @Johann

So, it would seem that you've stopped being a Calvinist and are now a Catholic?
That can happen,, /as a matter of fact, before you showed up on "that other" forum, as a Calvinist, i was always having to deal with a someone who had Left Calvin's cult and had become a "Cult of Mary" "its all about the water"...obsessed.

So, What's next for you? ..

Scientologist?
Mary Baker Eddy?
Buddhist?

Let us know.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So here is the truth...

I never denied water baptism, as ive been water baptized.

What i deny is the "cult of Mary" (Catholic Church)... = their teaching as found in their Demonic bible. = The Douay Rheims version.

Thank you for setting that straight. I prefer to discuss your beliefs with you rather than discuss your beliefs with someone else.

See, the NT teaches that there is "one Lord, one faith, one Baptism"

So, we know that there are 2 Baptisms.... (those who study our bible).

So far we agree.

There is spiritual immersion, AND that is to be born again.....and that is the "ONE Baptism" that matters to God, AS THAT ONE< is caused by the Holy Spirit.
When that happens, the person is born again.

But this is were we disagree. To take this stance, one must ignore 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, Eph 5:25-27; and the evidence shown in Acts 8:36 and 22:16.
"were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" What baptism now saves us? Water baptism that corresponds to the water of the Flood.
"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." No one can enter into the Kingdom of God except through being born of water (baptism) and the Spirit (who takes action during water baptism to remove our sin (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4).
"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless." Different words but same meaning as born of water and the Spirit.
"As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" Clearly Phillip taught about water baptism when he taught Christ, because it is the Eunuch who asks for baptism when they came to water along the way.
"Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name." If this were Spirit baptism, then Saul would not have needed to get up at all. The Spirit could have baptized him sitting there on his seat. And if his salvation occurred when he believed, then he would have been sinless still three days later when Ananias came to him. But he was still in sin when Ananias came, and he had to get up and go be baptized, which means it must have been water baptism that Ananias says "wash[ed] away his sins".

Then, after we are born again, we are to become water baptized, as this is our Public Identification, with Christ, as being risen with Him, in newness of Life.. Its symbolic.

Now...........

Its nothing more then that...but all the born again should be water baptized.

When you read Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14, the old person (unsaved) goes into baptism, and the new person (saved) comes out of baptism. As noted above, that is water baptism. It is not Spirit baptism because Spirit baptism is not something that man can cause or initiate, but the one baptism in the NT Church is something that man does (Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19, Acts 22:16, Acts 8:36, and others).

 

[jeremiah1five]

The law of Christ is the New Covenant (NC). It is not the Law of Moses, and only relates to it in so far as the commands of the Law of Moses were restated by Christ and/or the Apostles in the NC. For example, the commandment to not murder was included in the NC, but was expanded to include not only the act, but the feeling of hatred as well. Adultery was condemned in the NC, but not only that but lust was condemned as well. But things like circumcision of male children on the eighth day was not included in the Law of Christ. And the sacrificial system was not included because Christ is the only sacrifice necessary in the NC.

Not leaving me any characters to respond.
The Law of Christ is not the NC because it doesn't say so. I know you're trying but you missed the mark.
The Law of Moses was written on stone, and it says so.
But there is enough in the term "Law of Christ" to receive its meaning.
Christ is the English from the Greek "Christos" which is from the Hebrew "Messias", and that word means "anointed." Thus, the Law of "Anointed" or being the "anointed" refers to the Spirit which means the Law of the Spirit. Two ways to see it:
The first, is the whole of Scripture since the Holy Spirit Authored it. Paul said, "the Law is spiritual" (Rom. 7:14.) And since the Law(s) of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law this would encompass the whole of Scripture. The Law of Christ which is spiritual and of the Spirit are the Words of God who is Spirit.
The second, the issue of contention between Christ and the religious leaders was that He taught the spirit of the Law, and they only knew and understood the letter of the Law (the Holy Spirit had not been given yet.) And since the Law of Moses is spiritual this means the Law of Christ IS the Law of Moses which is spiritual.
I believe the Law of Christ ("anointed") is the first one for it encompasses the second view as the second view only covers the Law of Moses. And there is connection between the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ since both are from God and it is said, "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" Jn. 1:17.

I do not know for sure what is involved with Christ placing His law on our heart, except that I believe it is the love of Christ placed within us. There aren't many "do this", "don't do that" commandments in the NT. Everything can be boiled down to just two commands: Love God, and Love others.

The reason why there aren't many "do this, don't do that" is because it wasn't necessary to be redundant since the Jewish Christians (Peter, James, Paul, etc.) were writing to other Jewish Christians and the New Covenant is a continuation of the covenants God progressively gave to Israel and the NC is totally a Jewish Covenant (no Gentiles included), these Jews knew the Law already.
Ah, but that command about love was given to Israel of twelve tribes in the desert and applies to them. Love God and love your fellow covenant brethren. God NEVER commanded Israel to love those not in covenant but the opposite: Do not mingle with the Gentiles nor learn THEIR ways. But Israel didn't listen. Nor do Gentile Christians who adulterate themselves in being friends with the word, loving the world, and make themselves the enemy of God.

You are not wrong that there were many Jews from many places in Jerusalem on Pentecost, and they each heard the Apostles speaking in their own native language. But what He was saying through them was not the object of our discussion above. Yes, many of these people learned about Christ, and they would have taken that information with them when they went home. But as noted in my last comment above, while these men were from all over the world, they were not from everywhere in the world. There were many towns that did not have enough Jews to set up a Synagogue (minimum 10 men). And because of this, there was not a Synagogue in every town that Paul went to to preach. So in many places he had to go to other places to find people to whom to preach.

Here's a map generally accepted as historical:


When God scattered His people through the conquest of Assyria and Babylon it was extensive. The newly minted Jewish Christians returning home would have had to cross many lands, towns, and cities and they most likely would have 'saved' other Jews along the way especially in light of Joel's prophecy of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Reread Acts 10, and the conversion of Cornelius. What is different about how Cornelius, a Gentile Roman soldier, was converted versus how the Apostles and the other 120 Jews in the upper room on Pentecost were converted?

Cornelius was a "God Fearer" and already a convert to Judaism.
In the upper room there were only the eleven disciples. Unless you want to say there were 120 but only "Galileans" were the only ones who spoke in tongues, which is what it says.

NOTHING!! The Gentiles received the Holy Spirit exactly as the Jews received the Holy Spirit. They worked miracles, they spoke in tongues, they praised God, and they were baptized into Christ as full recipients of the Covenant, and co-heirs with Christ of the Promise.

God made no covenant with Gentiles nor is there any statement by the Holy Spirit that Gentiles were included in the New Covenant.

Gal 1:2 & 3:21-22 - "and all the brothers who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:
Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? Far from it! For if a law had been given that was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has confined everyone under sin [both Jew and Gentile], so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those [whether Jew or Gentile] who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 For you are all [both Jew or Gentile] sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus."
Galatians was written to the Churches in Galatia, which were all composed of both Jew and Gentile. Paul makes no distinction between them in his letters. In fact, he clearly indicates that they are equal partakers as recipients in the promise that was made to Abraham.

The Temple still stood. The New Covenant is with the House of Israel and only Israel were being saved as Christ was building His Church WITHIN the confines of Jeremiah's prophecy in 31. It was after the destruction of the Temple that Gentiles started being saved but before that it was Jewish all the way.

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Rom. 9:4–5.

It was a Jewish phenomenon. Totally Jewish until the Temple was destroyed. The churches Paul visited and wrote to was populated by Jewish Christians.

There is no such thing as salvation outside of the Covenant of God. The Covenant is the covenant of salvation, and it is through the covenant that salvation is received. No one can be saved outside of the promise of God to give salvation to those who obey Him (Heb 5:9).

IF no can be saved "outside" the Covenant and Jeremiah's Covenant is made with the House of Israel - NO GENTILES - then how are Gentiles saved since there is no salvation outside covenant? Cannot God do what He wants with HIS salvation? There is no covenant anywhere in Scripture of God making any kind of Covenant with Gentiles. Let's keep to what's written and not add to the bible. God is saving Gentiles WITHOUT Covenant and His main purpose in doing this without Covenant is to make His Bride Israel JEALOUS.

The analogy did not specify Jew or Gentile (there is no such thing any more according to Scripture (Gal 3:28, Eph 2:13-17, Rom 10:12)). But lets say it is you.
You, as a single man, and some other Jew make a contract. Later, you marry a Jewish woman, and then you die. She, even though she did not sign the contract, and was not party to it when it was signed, is grafted into the contract through marriage to you, because the two of you were ONE in the sight of the law and of God.
That is the position that Gentiles find themselves in today. Through belief in Christ they have been grafted into Israel, and are now partakers in the covenant promises and inheritance of Israel through Christ.

In marriage there is no grafting but a becoming ONE, and this is a mystery.
But if I were to marry as a Jewish man I would marry a Jewish woman who is ALREADY in covenant.
If I marry outside of covenant I am unequally yoked, committed adultery to God and the rest of my fellow covenant Brides-men, and am in disobedience to marry a whore.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Let me show you what your issue is, and why you can't realize what im showing you.
Its because your theology, and your belief system is not based on discerning the Scripture.
Its based on " this church father said and wrote" ..... Its based on "this scholar said".. and 'this one teaches"...

After 46 years I've put away childish things and study on my own under the anointing and receive revelation just as Paul said he did in Galatian letter. I don't get my "theology" from "scholars" or "Church Father's." What light they had to understand Scripture was for their time and God has since built up through the centuries His doctrine to what we have today after 2000 years. But revelation is still occurring as God has given us more light than they had in the first centuries and I am part of that edification of Biblical doctrine.
I take Scripture as written before I try to spiritualize it. God says what He means, and He means what He says. Plainly, as Jesus told His disciples:

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Jn. 16:29.

See, you are not responding as a BIBLE Believer., or as a real student of the NT, according to Paul's Theology.
Not at all.
You are responding as the typical "ive studed all the teachers, church fathers... scholars, and commentaries", and they have led you away from the word.

I KNOW the New Covenant is a "Jewish" Covenant God made with the House of Israel as Jeremiah said. This is TRUE. The question is: Why don't you accept this as TRUE?
WHY don't you accept the New Covenant Church was founded by Jews and it was populated by Jewish Christians throughout the then-known world as Jewish Christians that were saved at Pentecost took Jesus with them to their places of origin in Gentile lands and led other Jews to their Messiah and founded the home churches after the Jews excommunicated them from their synagogues.

That always happens.
Hebrews 13:9 is not a myth.
its tells you that if you DON'T get your heart grounded in Grace, and that means Paul's doctrine, then "doctrines of devils" which is... all that teaching from 1000 sources that all contradict, becomes your confused REFERENCE.
And that is what has happened to you.. And that is why all you can use as your "proof text" is..

Hebrew was written to the Hebrew/Jews who were saved. I read it in context to whom the writer addresses his letter: TO THE JEWS. Do you believe this?

""""""What this man said.
What this other man teaches.
My Commentary teaches.
Let me show you what this church father thinks, but this other one said this....""""
See that?
That is how to NOT learn anything, correctly, and you are right in the middle of it. @jeremiah1five
And you'll now post something else by some other MAN who isn't PAUL.
Go ahead, as its all you have left.

Oh, there are 66 books and letters written by Hebrews/Jews to and for other Jews that I accept. And why not? It's a Jewish covenant as are all the prophets and their prophecies and covenants God made with the House of Israel.

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came [sent to the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Rom. 9:4–5.

You're going to challenge me of not accepting the words of Paul? Let's test that.
What Paul says here is that everything he mentions in this passage is TO and FOR Israel. There is no mention of these things pertaining to Gentiles.
DO YOU BELIEVE PAUL?

 

[Behold]

But this is were we disagree. To take this stance, one must ignore 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, Eph 5:25-27; and the evidence shown in Acts 8:36 and 22:16.
"were brought safely through the water. 2

Hey 'Doug.

I was talking to a Catholic recently on another Forum... about this verse..

"Noah was saved by water"... 1 Peter 3.

I pointed out that the flood water was killing everything outside Noan's Ark, and had Noah, family, and animals.... gotten into that water, they would have all DIED.... Died..... Died.
So, in this we see that water did not save Noah... It was the ARK that kept Noah out of the water (that was God's judgment,) is why Noah didn't DROWN.. (Die).

So, the ARK, here, in 1 Peter, is symbolic of the Cross of Christ, as in both cases we are SAVED from God's Judgment.
Noah from the flood water....
And a Believer from Hell and the Lake of Fire. (2nd Death), which is the eternal judgment due a Christ Rejector, who is never born again, and dies.

John 3:36

When you read Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14, the old person (unsaved) goes into baptism, and the new person (saved) comes out of baptism.\

I want you to just put this in your head... what im going to show you.
Just put it in there..

When Jesus was water baptized, This didn't save Him, as He was already sinless when He got in the water.

Also, the Dying Thief on the Cross, is in Heaven right now, and you'll get to talk to him, if you are born again, and not just water baptized and religious when you die.
This Dying Thief, was never water baptized, and He's in heaven right now.

Paul the Apostle who wrote 13 NT Epistles, said.. "Christ sent me NOT to water baptize", and Paul is the one who gave us : "The Gospel of the Grace of God"""... and it has no water in it.

And one more, @Doug Brents ..

Use your imagination,...

and take Jesus off the Cross. Put Him back in Heaven.
He never died on the Cross yet..
Now, if you get water baptized 234 times, next week, you're not saved, yet.
Why?
Because the BLOOD of Jesus (The Cross of Christ)...is the means by which God will accept you, and He provides this Salvation, as "Grace through Faith' without works and without law.
Water Baptism is a work.. Its something you do. And Salvation is something that God provided., as a Gift.

 

[Doug Brents]

Not leaving me any characters to respond.
The Law of Christ is not the NC because it doesn't say so. I know you're trying but you missed the mark.
The Law of Moses was written on stone, and it says so.
But there is enough in the term "Law of Christ" to receive its meaning.
Christ is the English from the Greek "Christos" which is from the Hebrew "Messias", and that word means "anointed." Thus, the Law of "Anointed" or being the "anointed" refers to the Spirit which means the Law of the Spirit. Two ways to see it:
The first, is the whole of Scripture since the Holy Spirit Authored it. Paul said, "the Law is spiritual" (Rom. 7:14.) And since the Law(s) of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law this would encompass the whole of Scripture. The Law of Christ which is spiritual and of the Spirit are the Words of God who is Spirit.
The second, the issue of contention between Christ and the religious leaders was that He taught the spirit of the Law, and they only knew and understood the letter of the Law (the Holy Spirit had not been given yet.) And since the Law of Moses is spiritual this means the Law of Christ IS the Law of Moses which is spiritual.
I believe the Law of Christ ("anointed") is the first one for it encompasses the second view as the second view only covers the Law of Moses. And there is connection between the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ since both are from God and it is said, "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" Jn. 1:17.

The Law of Christ is not the "Law of 'anointed'". Yes, Christ (from the Greek) and Messiah (from the Hebrew) both mean anointed, but that for Jesus is also a title, so it is kind of like saying the Law of the King, or the Law of Jesus.

But the Law of Christ, the NT Law, is not the Law of Moses, or the Law from the Old Covenant. The Law of Moses was part of the Old Covenant, and the Old Covenant (in its entirety) was removed when it was completed perfectly by Christ at the Cross (Rom 10:4). We are no longer bound by the Old Covenant, nor are we bound by the Law of Moses.

The reason why there aren't many "do this, don't do that" is because it wasn't necessary to be redundant since the Jewish Christians (Peter, James, Paul, etc.) were writing to other Jewish Christians and the New Covenant is a continuation of the covenants God progressively gave to Israel and the NC is totally a Jewish Covenant (no Gentiles included), these Jews knew the Law already.

No, the New Covenant is not a continuation of the Old. The Old was one continually renewed covenant from Abraham, renewed with Issac, renewed with Jacob, renewed with Moses, and continued with the prophets, kings, and judges all the way up to Christ. But in Christ a NEW Covenant is made. It is not the renewal of the Old, but a completely new covenant (Heb 7:18-22).

Ah, but that command about love was given to Israel of twelve tribes in the desert and applies to them. Love God and love your fellow covenant brethren. God NEVER commanded Israel to love those not in covenant but the opposite: Do not mingle with the Gentiles nor learn THEIR ways. But Israel didn't listen. Nor do Gentile Christians who adulterate themselves in being friends with the word, loving the world, and make themselves the enemy of God.

It is the Gentiles who learn the ways of Israel (Christ) when we are adopted into Christ and become part of Israel. It is not the Jews who learn the Gentile ways.

Here's a map generally accepted as historical:

View attachment 265
When God scattered His people through the conquest of Assyria and Babylon it was extensive. The newly minted Jewish Christians returning home would have had to cross many lands, towns, and cities and they most likely would have 'saved' other Jews along the way especially in light of Joel's prophecy of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

No debate here. But as we see in Acts 16:13, Paul went to the place of prayer near the river where the women gathered, but he did not go to a Synagogue as was his custom because there was no Synagogue in Philippi. The same is the case in many other places. But Paul did not limit his evangelism to the Jews in those places, as we see when he was in Athens in Acts 17. He reasoned in the Synagogue with the Jews, and then went to the marketplace and other places to reason with the Gentiles.

Cornelius was a "God Fearer" and already a convert to Judaism.

No, he was a Gentile soldier. As we see in Acts 10:28, Peter told Cornelius that it was against the Jewish law for him to associate with them (Gentiles), but that God had shown Peter that the Gentiles were no longer "unclean" or to be disassociated from (Acts 10:28-29).

In the upper room there were only the eleven disciples. Unless you want to say there were 120 but only "Galileans" were the only ones who spoke in tongues, which is what it says.

Acts 1:15 says that there were about 120 people in the room when the 12th Apostle was selected to replace Judas, and Acts 2:1 says that they were all together in one place on Pentecost. Not all of the Apostles were Galileans, but the most prominent of them (Peter, Andrew, James, and John) were and most probably were the ones about whom the Jews spoke.

God made no covenant with Gentiles nor is there any statement by the Holy Spirit that Gentiles were included in the New Covenant.

You keep saying that, but the evidence presented disagrees with you.

The Temple still stood. The New Covenant is with the House of Israel and only Israel were being saved as Christ was building His Church WITHIN the confines of Jeremiah's prophecy in 31. It was after the destruction of the Temple that Gentiles started being saved but before that it was Jewish all the way.

Not true at all. There were many Gentiles converted (Cornelius being the first (Acts 10-11), and many others besides before the Temple was destroyed. Paul was executed around the year 64AD, but the Temple was not destroyed until 70AD. Paul was the "Apostle to the Gentiles" by his own account, and if he died in 64, then all of his letters (most of the NT Scriptures), all of his preaching, all of the Churches he planted, all of his missionary journeys, etc. were done before the Temple was destroyed. If not a single Gentile was converted before the Temple fell, then his entire ministry was a waste.

IF no can be saved "outside" the Covenant and Jeremiah's Covenant is made with the House of Israel - NO GENTILES - then how are Gentiles saved since there is no salvation outside covenant? Cannot God do what He wants with HIS salvation? There is no covenant anywhere in Scripture of God making any kind of Covenant with Gentiles. Let's keep to what's written and not add to the bible. God is saving Gentiles WITHOUT Covenant and His main purpose in doing this without Covenant is to make His Bride Israel JEALOUS.

The covenant with Abraham was made with a Gentile. There was no Jew or Gentile at that time. There was only humanity. And God called Abraham out and made the Jews out of him and his descendants. But then God reunited the Gentiles and the Jews into one humanity again in Christ.

In marriage there is no grafting but a becoming ONE, and this is a mystery.
But if I were to marry as a Jewish man I would marry a Jewish woman who is ALREADY in covenant.
If I marry outside of covenant I am unequally yoked, committed adultery to God and the rest of my fellow covenant Brides-men, and am in disobedience to marry a whore.

You are completely missing the point of the analogy. I am not talking about you being in covenant with God. I am talking about you and me making a contract, a covenant, between ourselves: you and me. Then when you marry, she is brought into the covenant between you and me as an equal with you on your side of the contract. Then when you die, she is completely liable to the contract, both the requirements and the benefits.

 

[Doug Brents]

Hey 'Doug.

I was talking to a Catholic recently on another Forum... about this verse..

"Noah was saved by water"... 1 Peter 3.

I pointed out that the flood water was killing everything outside Noan's Ark, and had Noah, family, and animals.... gotten into that water, they would have all DIED.... Died..... Died.
So, in this we see that water did not save Noah... It was the ARK that kept Noah out of the water (that was God's judgment,) is why Noah didn't DROWN.. (Die).

So, the ARK, here, in 1 Peter, is symbolic of the Cross of Christ, as in both cases we are SAVED from God's Judgment.
Noah from the flood water....
And a Believer from Hell and the Lake of Fire. (2nd Death), which is the eternal judgment due a Christ Rejector, who is never born again, and dies.

John 3:36

1 Pet 3:18-22 - "For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him."
Noah was brought safely through the water, yes in the Ark, because of his faith in God who commanded him to build it. Today, we are saved through Christ if we have faith in Him to bring us through the water of baptism in Him. Baptism (in water) is the reference here, and the Holy Spirit who authored this passage says that it is baptism that saves us.

I want you to just put this in your head... what im going to show you.
Just put it in there..

When Jesus was water baptized, This didn't save Him, as He was already sinless when He got in the water.

This is true, but He did it to "fulfill all righteousness".

Also, the Dying Thief on the Cross, is in Heaven right now, and you'll get to talk to him, if you are born again, and not just water baptized and religious when you die.
This Dying Thief, was never water baptized, and He's in heaven right now.

Again, true. But let me ask you, when was the promise to him that he would be in paradise made? I will answer, it was made before Christ died. A human will (ie: last will and testament) can be changed any way the testator desires right up until the testator dies (Heb 9:15-17). Since Jesus was alive, He could change His will any way He wanted. But after He died, His will was locked in, and one of the last things He said in Mark 16:16 was that anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. That, for us today, is His immutable will.

Paul the Apostle who wrote 13 NT Epistles, said.. "Christ sent me NOT to water baptize", and Paul is the one who gave us : "The Gospel of the Grace of God"""... and it has no water in it.

Indeed, but why was Paul not sent to baptize? He was sent to plant the seed, not to cause the increase. Paul did baptize, (Acts 16:33, Acts 19:5 and others), but his primary mission was not to reap the harvest. That was left to others who came after him, like Apollos (1 Cor 3:6).

And one more, @Doug Brents ..

Use your imagination,...

and take Jesus off the Cross. Put Him back in Heaven.
He never died on the Cross yet..
Now, if you get water baptized 234 times, next week, you're not saved, yet.
Why?

Because we would still be under the Old Covenant, and baptism was not a commandment for salvation under the OC.

Because the BLOOD of Jesus (The Cross of Christ)...is the means by which God will accept you, and He provides this Salvation, as "Grace through Faith' without works and without law.

Without the Law (of Moses), but not without action. Faith requires action. Without action, faith is dead, worthless, and ineffective (James 2:26). If there is faith, then there is action in response to that faith, as Heb 5:9 says.

Water Baptism is a work.. Its something you do. And Salvation is something that God provided., as a Gift.

This is true, but not complete. Read Matt 28:19, and then compare with Mark 16:16. Who is commanded to do the baptizing? The Apostles, and by extension all those who teach and preach the Gospel. That means that baptism (there being only one in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6)) is something that man must do. It is not an action taken by the Holy Spirit (Spirit baptism). It also REQUIRES water as 1 Pet 3:21 states. And it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sin and unites us with Christ (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4).

Remember, no passage of Scripture can stand alone in our doctrine, because every passage of Scripture is equally God inspired. As such, we cannot take this one passage, and ignore any other that speaks on the same subject. Every passage must be considered and added to the others. For example, take the four passages that tell us what the charge against Jesus said that was placed over His head.
Matt 27:37 – “And they (the soldiers who crucified Christ) put up over His head the accusation written against Him:

THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.“​

Mark 15:26 – “And the inscription of His accusation was written above:

THE KING OF THE JEWS.”​

Luke 23:38 – “… an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew:

THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”​

John 19:19 – “Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was:

JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.​

Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.“
In Mark it says only "The King of the Jews". Does that mean that John is wrong in saying Jesus' name? or that He was from Nazareth? or that it was written in three languages? No, it simply means that Mark did not feel the need to say these things to his audience (or rather, the Holy Spirit did not feel the need to say these things to Mark's audience). So too with those passages that only mention "belief" (John 3:16) or "repentance" (Acts 3:19), or combinations of them (Rom 10:9-10). The fact that they do not mention baptism is irreverent, because the association between baptism and salvation is noted elsewhere in Scripture (Mark 16:16, Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14, John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21, and many others).

 

[Behold]

Because we would still be under the Old Covenant, and baptism was not a commandment for salvation under the OC.

I just showed you that the water would have killed Noah. and family.
You then post the same verses again.
So, can we have a legit conversation, if you refuse to see what is very clear?

The water didnt save Noah... The water would have killed Him.
The ARK saved Noah from the water.

The WATER would have KILLED< so, dont post to try to prove that Water saved Him, @Doug Brents

Think about that.. ok?

Also...

Water baptism is not a commandment for salvation at all., unless you are a Catholic, a certain type of Baptist, and a JW, and a few other off-brand denominations that teach ACTs 2:38 as Salvation.
If im stepping on a Berean's toes, then all i can say is that Paul's Gospel is not Acts 2:38, and you need to find out why.

There is no verse in any REAL bible, that teaches that water is required for Salvation.
The Book of Mormon and Catholic and JW bible, teach that Water is required for Salvation.

Paul taches... "Christ sent me NOT to Water Baptize"..

Paul's Gospel, is THE Gospel, and its "the Gospel of the Grace of God"... and there is no water in it.

Water Baptism is symbolic, .. is not different then Communion in that regard.

Let me show you a way to understand this , Reader.

If you join the Army... they give you a uniform..
The Uniform does not prove you are in the Army......as you can buy one in a Store.
See, Its because you are joined up,= have a contract with the ARMY... that you get a uniform that says.. "Im in the Army"

So, when you are born again, you are now under contract with the New Covenant, and the Blood atonement, .... and then you go and get in the water, in PUBLIC< as this is saying..>"im a Christian"....>"ive BECOME ONE">...

 

[Doug Brents]

I just showed you that the water would have killed Noah. and family.
You then post the same verses again.
So, can we have a legit conversation, if you refuse to see what is very clear?

The water didnt save Noah... The water would have killed Him.
The ARK saved Noah from the water.

You are correct that the water would have killed them if they had not been in the Ark.
But that does not change what Scripture says. The Ark represents their faith, because it was in faith that they built the Ark. And they were saved by passing through the water in the Ark. We are saved by passing through the water in Christ.

Water baptism is not a commandment for salvation at all., unless you are a Catholic, a certain type of Baptist, and a JW, and a few other off-brand denominations that teach ACTs 2:38 as Salvation.
If im stepping on a Berean's toes, then all i can say is that Paul's Gospel is not Acts 2:38, and you need to find out why.

There is no verse in any REAL bible, that teaches that water is required for Salvation.
The Book of Mormon and Catholic and JW bible, teach that Water is required for Salvation.

That is not a correct statement. Clearly you have not been reading any of the Bible references I have been posting.
Mark 16:16 says that salvation is received through belief and baptism.
Acts 2:38 says that salvation is received through repentance and baptism.
Acts 3:19 says salvation is received through repentance.
Rom 10:9-10 says salvation is received through belief and confession of Jesus' as Lord.
John 3:5 says salvation is received through water and Spirit.
Eph 5:26 says salvation is received through water and Word.
Col 2:11-14 says that it is during baptism that we are spiritually circumcised by the Holy Spirit, and are united with His death and resurrection.
Rom 6:1-4 says that it is during baptism that we enter into Christ, and in entering Him are united with His death and resurrection.

Water Baptism is symbolic, .. is not different then Communion in that regard.

Baptism is VERY different from communion. Communion is a remembrance of the death of Christ (ie: Passover). Baptism (per Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-4) is the point at which the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us with Christ. Communion is done frequently (as often as we eat the bread and drink the cup), but baptism is a one time thing.

Let me show you a way to understand this , Reader.

If you join the Army... they give you a uniform..
The Uniform does not prove you are in the Army......as you can buy one in a Store.
See, Its because you are joined up,= have a contract with the ARMY... that you get a uniform that says.. "Im in the Army"

Baptism is not the uniform. Love is our uniform! Baptism, in your analogy, would be the point at which the oath is sworn (I am (or was) a soldier in the US Army).

So, when you are born again, you are now under contract with the New Covenant, and the Blood atonement, .... and then you go and get in the water, in PUBLIC< as this is saying..>"im a Christian"....>"ive BECOME ONE">...

I hear people say this all the time, but I cannot find anything in Scripture that says anything like it. Can you please point out to me where that is said? Because that seems to be completely contradictory to what Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-4 say.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The Law of Christ is not the "Law of 'anointed'". Yes, Christ (from the Greek) and Messiah (from the Hebrew) both mean anointed, but that for Jesus is also a title, so it is kind of like saying the Law of the King, or the Law of Jesus.

But the Law of Christ, the NT Law, is not the Law of Moses, or the Law from the Old Covenant. The Law of Moses was part of the Old Covenant, and the Old Covenant (in its entirety) was removed when it was completed perfectly by Christ at the Cross (Rom 10:4). We are no longer bound by the Old Covenant, nor are we bound by the Law of Moses.

No, the New Covenant is not a continuation of the Old. The Old was one continually renewed covenant from Abraham, renewed with Issac, renewed with Jacob, renewed with Moses, and continued with the prophets, kings, and judges all the way up to Christ. But in Christ a NEW Covenant is made. It is not the renewal of the Old, but a completely new covenant (Heb 7:18-22).

It is the Gentiles who learn the ways of Israel (Christ) when we are adopted into Christ and become part of Israel. It is not the Jews who learn the Gentile ways.

No debate here. But as we see in Acts 16:13, Paul went to the place of prayer near the river where the women gathered, but he did not go to a Synagogue as was his custom because there was no Synagogue in Philippi. The same is the case in many other places. But Paul did not limit his evangelism to the Jews in those places, as we see when he was in Athens in Acts 17. He reasoned in the Synagogue with the Jews, and then went to the marketplace and other places to reason with the Gentiles.

No, he was a Gentile soldier. As we see in Acts 10:28, Peter told Cornelius that it was against the Jewish law for him to associate with them (Gentiles), but that God had shown Peter that the Gentiles were no longer "unclean" or to be disassociated from (Acts 10:28-29).

Acts 1:15 says that there were about 120 people in the room when the 12th Apostle was selected to replace Judas, and Acts 2:1 says that they were all together in one place on Pentecost. Not all of the Apostles were Galileans, but the most prominent of them (Peter, Andrew, James, and John) were and most probably were the ones about whom the Jews spoke.

You keep saying that, but the evidence presented disagrees with you.

Not true at all. There were many Gentiles converted (Cornelius being the first (Acts 10-11), and many others besides before the Temple was destroyed. Paul was executed around the year 64AD, but the Temple was not destroyed until 70AD. Paul was the "Apostle to the Gentiles" by his own account, and if he died in 64, then all of his letters (most of the NT Scriptures), all of his preaching, all of the Churches he planted, all of his missionary journeys, etc. were done before the Temple was destroyed. If not a single Gentile was converted before the Temple fell, then his entire ministry was a waste.

The covenant with Abraham was made with a Gentile. There was no Jew or Gentile at that time. There was only humanity. And God called Abraham out and made the Jews out of him and his descendants. But then God reunited the Gentiles and the Jews into one humanity again in Christ.

You are completely missing the point of the analogy. I am not talking about you being in covenant with God. I am talking about you and me making a contract, a covenant, between ourselves: you and me. Then when you marry, she is brought into the covenant between you and me as an equal with you on your side of the contract. Then when you die, she is completely liable to the contract, both the requirements and the benefits.

Do you know about type and shadow?
The Law of God is type and shadow of the Holy Spirit. It is HE God promised Israel to put in THEIR inward parts. Now, instead of the Law written in stone and leading and guiding Israel from without, the Holy Spirit leads and guides the Jewish Christian from within. The kingdom of God is within you.