The Grace of God : Is the Cross of Christ

[Doug Brents]

That's water cult teaching,

No, that is very clear Biblical doctrine.

as all water cults change the Holy Spirit Baptism, into water baptism... as you've been led to believe by a water cult.

Im not the first to point out to you that the dying Thief, who is in heaven right now, was not water baptized.

The thief was not subject to the NT. He was promised salvation under the OT, because Jesus had not yet died when he was promised salvation.

Also, id say that you teach "Acts 2:38" as The Gospel.
Right?
That's your "church" that teaches that, and you have a hand full of verses that they taught you to use.....
Sure.
Well, did you notice that in the upper room, during the Feast of Pentecost, non of the 120 was water baptized, and neither was Peter.

Read your bible.....It has some things for you to learn.

Let me ask you, which verse or passage of Scripture is more inspired than another? Which passage of Scripture is more holy than another?
NONE OF THEM!!!!
Because of that, any doctrine must take into account EVERY passage of Scripture. Your doctrine conveniently excludes or explains away 1 Pet 3:21 which clearly says that it is water baptism that saves us (through which we are saved). You exclude every reference to anything man must do to receive salvation (Acts 3:19, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Rom 10:9-10, and others) so that you can remain lost in sin when Jesus tells you at Judgement, "I never knew you."

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, we become the righteousness of God when we are in Christ, but just the understanding of these facts is not what it means to be Born Again. The demons understand these facts, but they are not saved. And many will think they are saved because of the long life full of working for God, but God will tell them "I NEVER knew you." (Matt 7:23) Just because you know God does not mean that He knows you (Gal 4:9). To be in Christ and one with God requires faith (Gal 3:26-27, Rom :3-4, Col 2-11-14, Heb 11:6), and faith without action is dead and worthless (James 2:26).

Devils have no means of salvation. Christ did not die for devils. He died for humanity.

 

[Doug Brents]

Devils have no means of salvation. Christ did not die for devils. He died for humanity.

If that is all you can argue with in that post, then why post it? Of course He did not die for demons, there is every indication that they cannot be saved even if they did repent. But the fact remains that they know the truth and will not (or cannot) act on it. And it is the acting on it that makes faith complete and salvific.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If that is all you can argue with in that post, then why post it? Of course He did not die for demons, there is every indication that they cannot be saved even if they did repent. But the fact remains that they know the truth and will not (or cannot) act on it. And it is the acting on it that makes faith complete and salvific.

Will not and can not are very different things.

Do you believe there are devils that would repent if they could?

This is very important because of it meaningfully affects how we construct our salvation theology.

 

[Doug Brents]

Will not and can not are very different things.

Do you believe there are devils that would repent if they could?

This is very important because of it meaningfully affects how we construct our salvation theology.

The demons and fallen angels (I believe they are different) have seen God and KNOW the truth. We, who are unable to see the spiritual realm live by faith, but the spiritual beings have seen. Because they have seen the truth, I do not believe that they can repent.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The demons and fallen angels (I believe they are different) have seen God and KNOW the truth. We, who are unable to see the spiritual realm live by faith, but the spiritual beings have seen. Because they have seen the truth, I do not believe that they can repent.

Moses saw God. Did that eliminate faith for Moses?

There is no such thing as blind faith. Faith has substance. When we reach out into the future to believe God, that is what "unseen" represents.

Moses endured as seeing Him who was invisible.

 

[Doug Brents]

Moses saw God. Did that eliminate faith for Moses?

There is no such thing as blind faith. Faith has substance. When we reach out into the future to believe God, that is what "unseen" represents.

Moses endured as seeing Him who was invisible.

Moses already had exhibited faith (going to Pharaoh, leading the people, etc.) before he saw God on Mt Sinai.
I agree that there is no blind faith. Faith is not action in the absence of proof but action based on evidence, but there is no faith when there is sight. Faith is the substance of things we hope for and evidence of things we cannot see. When we have the thing, there is no more hope. When we see the thing there needs be no more evidence. It takes no faith to walk on a bridge you can see, but it takes faith to walk on a bridge you cannot see.
Moses acted as if he could see Him even though he could not; that is faith.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Moses already had exhibited faith (going to Pharaoh, leading the people, etc.) before he saw God on Mt Sinai.
I agree that there is no blind faith. Faith is not action in the absence of proof but action based on evidence, but there is no faith when there is sight. Faith is the substance of things we hope for and evidence of things we cannot see.

That is not the definition of faith. That is characteristics of faith. That definition traditionally passed from Christian to Christian is a mistake.

Faith is defined in verse 6

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

When we have the thing, there is no more hope. When we see the thing there needs be no more evidence. It takes no faith to walk on a bridge you can see, but it takes faith to walk on a bridge you cannot see.
Moses acted as if he could see Him even though he could not; that is faith.

Faith and hope are two different things. In fact, Paul said now abideth "faith and hope". They are connected but not identical. Faith is simply trusting God for what you can not possible do yourself. I have no future without Him. With Him, I have everything.

 

[Doug Brents]

That is not the definition of faith. That is characteristics of faith. That definition traditionally passed from Christian to Christian is a mistake.

Faith is defined in verse 6

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

What is faith without action? Dead and meaningless (James 2:26). So then, it is the diligently seeking that is added to the belief that He is that is makes the faith alive. Without the action (which is the evidence and the substance) there is no living, efficacious, saving faith.

Faith and hope are two different things. In fact, Paul said now abideth "faith and hope". They are connected but not identical. Faith is simply trusting God for what you can not possible do yourself. I have no future without Him. With Him, I have everything.

Indeed they are different but connected. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. But when there is sight we need no more hope, because we have seen. Faith is the evidence of what is not seen, but when we have seen there is no more faith because there is sight. Faith is not simply trusting in God, but trusting so much that we do what He commands.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What is faith without action? Dead and meaningless (James 2:26). So then, it is the diligently seeking that is added to the belief that He is that is makes the faith alive. Without the action (which is the evidence and the substance) there is no living, efficacious, saving faith.

Faith relies upon the action of another. How can you possibly help yourself? If you can help yourself, then it is not faith.

Indeed they are different but connected. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. But when there is sight we need no more hope, because we have seen. .

What have we completely seen? We've seen small pieces of somethings that are VERY BIG. HUGE.... Sure, if I need healing for something, I certainly rejoice when it arrives. That does not end my hope that God will help me yet again. Faith and hope still operate. I've seen God bless me more than I ever imaged but I still battle uncertainty. However, I can certainly TRUST HIM. Even when the answer is NO.

Faith is the evidence of what is not seen, but when we have seen there is no more faith because there is sight. Faith is not simply trusting in God, but trusting so much that we do what He commands.

Just how does someone so powerless as yourself actually accomplish what is needed for that to be true? Faith is trusting the work of another for YOU.

 

[Doug Brents]

Faith relies upon the action of another. How can you possibly help yourself? If you can help yourself, then it is not faith.

You may have faith IN the actions of another, but your faith requires your action for your faith to be alive and real (James 2:26).

What have we completely seen? We've seen small pieces of somethings that are VERY BIG. HUGE.... Sure, if I need healing for something, I certainly rejoice when it arrives. That does not end my hope that God will help me yet again. Faith and hope still operate. I've seen God bless me more than I ever imaged but I still battle uncertainty. However, I can certainly TRUST HIM. Even when the answer is NO.

Correct, we have not seen, but the spirits (angels and demons) have. You are talking about things that we have not discussed. We were talking about the fact that demons have seen and so do not have faith. The angels have seen so they do not have hope. We have both hope and faith because we have not seen.

Just how does someone so powerless as yourself actually accomplish what is needed for that to be true? Faith is trusting the work of another for YOU.

Easily. God said He did all the work to secure salvation through the death of Jesus. But to receive the benefit of that sacrifice I MUST obey Him in repentance, confession of Jesus' name as my Lord, and being baptized in His name. Through that obedience I receive Jesus' righteousness as my own, and become united with Him in His death to sin and His resurrection in communion with God. That obedience completes and makes alive my faith. It is not that my actions "earn" salvation, or make restitution for my sin, or make me righteous in themselves. No, it is through my actions that God imputes Jesus' righteousness to me because of my trust in Him in obedience.

 

[Behold]

Let me ask you, which verse or passage of Scripture is more inspired than another?

All are inspired, but not all are DOCTRINE.

The teaching that water is required for Salvation, is a Catholic Teaching, that is taken from their Cult bible, that says.... that you are "born again BY water",
And that is a Satanic lie, as you are not born again BY water.
You are born again by the HOLY SPIRIT< and the HOLY SPIRIT is not water.

See, the Cross and WATER are not co-equal regarding the Blood Atonement, that is the NEW Covenant.

IF you teach that they are equal, then you are denying the Cross.

 

[Doug Brents]

All are inspired, but not all are DOCTRINE.

The teaching that water is required for Salvation, is a Catholic Teaching, that is taken from their Cult bible, that says.... that you are "born again BY water",
And that is a Satanic lie, as you are not born again BY water.
You are born again by the HOLY SPIRIT< and the HOLY SPIRIT is not water.

See, the Cross and WATER are not co-equal regarding the Blood Atonement, that is the NEW Covenant.

IF you teach that they are equal, then you are denying the Cross.

I never said the cross and water were equal. Jesus was not drowned, He was crucified (for a very specific reason that is not part of this discussion). But you are making argument without addressing Scripture. When we look at Scripture, as I have posted several times already, we see that the effect of the Blood Atonement that was made at the Cross is received during water baptism. Yes, we are born again by the Holy Spirit. But that rebirth occurs during water baptism (1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, Eph 5:25-27, Col 2;11-14, Rom 6:1-4).

 

[Behold]

the effect of the Blood Atonement that was made at the Cross is received during water baptism.

First of all, Jesus was not baptized to be saved.

and....God accepts faith to impute righteousness instantly to the Believer.

"Faith is counted as (Christ's) Righteousness" when you give God your faith.

There is no delay between giving God faith in Christ.... and receiving "the Gift of Righteousness" and "The Gift of Salvation>

To be "born again" is instantly.

This can happen in your car, in a jail cell, on on a Jet.

Water baptism is subsequent to Salvation., as is Discipleship.

 

[Complete]

How to understand the Grace of God, as the Cross of Christ....

A.) = Just like that.


In other words...

Christ on the Cross, is God manifested in the Flesh on the Cross, who said... before He died....."IT" "is finished".

See that "IT"?

A born again believer has to understand that "IT", as that "IT", is Salvation, Grace, and Redemption..... all of these.
That "IT" is the New Testament and the New Covenant.

So, lets say you are teaching a Sunday School Class,

Explain it like this...

1.) God became a man, the Virgin born Jesus, and He lived a perfect life, sin free. He then offers this LIFE to God, as a Sacrifice on The Cross for the "world". That's EVERYONE. John 3:16.
This Sacrifice is what God accepts, on our Behalf, to accept us., and God accepts nothing else. John 14:6

This is "the Gift of Salvation".
This is Christ on the Cross.

2.) Its literally, God dying as a man on the Cross, and this life He lived as sinless Jesus, is exchanged for our SIN, and Jesus becomes our sin on the Cross.... and its dealt with there, forever,...... and we become by this substitution, "the righteousness of God, in Christ".
Jesus becomes our sin and dies for it, and we become forgiven and now possess "Christ's Righteousness".

3.) Totally simplified : Christ becomes our sin, and we become as if we have lived the sinless life that Christ lived... given to us AS : "The Gift of Salvation, and "The Gift of Righteousness". This is what it means to be a Born Again CHRISTian.

4.) So, when we understand that we are become "the righteousness of God in Christ", we have "worked out our Salvation"", by understanding what we have Eternally become as a "NEW Creation, in Christ".

This is what it means to be "Born Again"... "IN Christ" as "One with God".

'And He said unto them, How is it that ye sought Me?
wist ye not that I must be about My Father's business?
(Luke 2:49)

'When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar,
He said, It is finished:
and He bowed His head,
and gave up the ghost.'
(Joh 19:30)

Hello @Behold,

Thank you for your OP.

It is wonderful to see in the first verse quoted above, the Lord Jesus Christ at 12 yrs of age, in the temple at Jerusalem, consciously aware of His object, his goal, and the need to fulfil it, 'I must be about My Father's business.'In the second verse quoted, we hear His words, spoken from the cross, 'It is finished'. Yes, His work of redemption had been accomplished,

God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself (2 Cor. 5:19).

Christ came to destroy the works of the Devil (1 John 3:8), He came also to confirm the promises made unto Israel (Rom.15:8). This has all been accomplished.

Praise God!

 

[Behold]

'And He said unto them, How is it that ye sought Me?
wist ye not that I must be about My Father's business?
(Luke 2:49)

'When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar,
He said, It is finished:
and He bowed His head,
and gave up the ghost.'
(Joh 19:30)

Hello @Behold,

Thank you for your OP.

It is wonderful to see in the first verse quoted above, the Lord Jesus Christ at 12 yrs of age, in the temple at Jerusalem, consciously aware of His object, his goal, and the need to fulfil it, 'I must be about My Father's business.'In the second verse quoted, we hear His words, spoken from the cross, 'It is finished'. Yes, His work of redemption had been accomplished,

God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself (2 Cor. 5:19).

Christ came to destroy the works of the Devil (1 John 3:8), He came also to confirm the promises made unto Israel (Rom.15:8). This has all been accomplished.

Praise God!

Amen

John 3:17

Romans 4:8

For us to be accepted by God we have to become as righteous as God.

Q.) How can that happen when "all have sinned"< and "all our works are as a filthy rag", and all the Law and commandments can do is DEMAND from us righteousness that we don't have ???

A.). God became one of us to fulfill the LAW which does this.... "Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness for/to everyone who believes".

And then He shed His blood and dies for our sin on The Cross....=""God has made Jesus to BE SIN for Us"", ... as """"the one time ETERNAL sacrifice for Sin""".

End result?

Our sin is forgiven, and the LAW has no more dominion over Us, so it can't ever again define us as a sinner.

God then gives us the New Birth, and we become : "The Righteousness of God, in Christ", as a "New Creation"....= BORN Again, and this is our Eternal Life "in Christ".

 

[Doug Brents]

First of all, Jesus was not baptized to be saved.

Correct. Jesus did not have any sin to be cleansed.

and....God accepts faith to impute righteousness instantly to the Believer.

"Faith is counted as (Christ's) Righteousness" when you give God your faith.

There is no delay between giving God faith in Christ.... and receiving "the Gift of Righteousness" and "The Gift of Salvation>

To be "born again" is instantly.

This can happen in your car, in a jail cell, on on a Jet.

Water baptism is subsequent to Salvation., as is Discipleship.

Indeed, when faith is exhibited, salvation is immediate. But that faith must take the form that is commanded by God (repentance, confession of Jesus' name, and baptism), and intellectual assent is not faith. You can come to intellectual assent in a car, in a jail cell, or on a jet. But you cannot exhibit the faith that is commanded by God in those places. Mark 16:16 says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Acts 2:38 says that those who repent and are baptized (having already believed) will receive forgiveness and the Holy Spirit. Col 2:11-14 says that it is in baptism that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and unites us with Jesus' death and resurrection. Rom 6:1-4 says that we are buried with Jesus in baptism to arise out of the water to a new life. If you do not exhibit the faith that God commanded, you do not receive the gift that He offers.

 

[Behold]

Correct. Jesus did not have any sin to be cleansed.

Indeed, when faith is exhibited, salvation is immediate. But that faith must take the form that is commanded by God (repentance, confession of Jesus' name, and baptism), and intellectual assent is not faith.

Millions join a "church" being told the lie that they are joining "the one true".
How do they join it?
Water baptized into this "water cult".

Water has no Spiritual Power.
Only the Blood is accepted by God to deal with sin.
Once we are saved, we then go and get water baptized.
If not then we are like the dying Thief.

I was water baptized 11 yrs after i was born again.
Some people are water baptized the same week they are saved.
Some are never water baptized..

These would include, say, a death bed conversion.
Or, lets say you are in the Ukraine right now and your leg was just blown off by a rocket that landed nearby, and you cry out to Jesus, and are saved, then die.


So, sure, If possible be water baptized after you are born again.
But, Its not always possible.

 

[Doug Brents]

Millions join a "church" being told the lie that they are joining "the one true".

This is true. There are many who believe they are part of the Church, but at Judgement they will be told that He never knew them.

Water has no Spiritual Power.
Only the Blood is accepted by God to deal with sin.

This is also true. The water is not special. It does not have to be "holy" water as the catholic cult teaches. It does not have to be water in any particular place. But it does have to be water.

Once we are saved, we then go and get water baptized.

Wrong. The old man of sin goes into the water and the new man rises out of the water (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14). Without passing through the water, the new man is not born.

I was water baptized 11 yrs after i was born again.

You were baptized 11 years after you thought you were born again. But you cannot be born again without connecting with the Blood, and the Blood is applied by the Holy Spirit during water baptism (see verses above).

Some people are water baptized the same week they are saved.

No, they are saved at the time when they are baptized.

Some are never water baptized..

And they are never saved.

These would include, say, a death bed conversion.

I have baptized people who were on their "death bed". And I have seen others die on their "death bed" without being saved.

Or, lets say you are in the Ukraine right now and your leg was just blown off by a rocket that landed nearby, and you cry out to Jesus, and are saved, then die.

There are many who cry "Lord" but that does not save them (Matt 7:21-23).

I get the feeling that you believe that the default position of a person is to gravitate to God and that God is seeking to save everyone who even glances toward Him at some point in their life. Nothing could be further from the truth. God only saves those who are obedient to Him (Heb 5:9).

 

[Behold]

You were baptized 11 years after you thought you were born again. But you cannot be born again without connecting with the Blood, and the Blood is applied by the Holy Spirit during water baptism (see verses above).

That is very pure catholic cult or Jehovah's Witness teaching.

That cult teaching is taken from their cult bible that teaches that you are "BORN AGAIN....BY WATER".

So, you believe this., as do they.

However, God does not "apply" the Holy Spirit, only if you get in water, as that is WATER CULT theology.

God applies the HOLY Spirit, when you BELIEVE...

"All that Believe in Me, i give unto them Eternal life".....Jesus said..... and He didnt mention water.

Did He forget?

Paul said....>"Christ send me not to water baptize"..

So, if it was "necessary for salvation" He would have said...."yes, im bringing the Water and The Cross with me'.

But He didnt, because water has no part in the Cross.

Its symbolic only.