As you said to me, "Rub two brain cells together. It'll come to you".
The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
- Thread starter MTMattie
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brightfame52
Active Member
It was a Mystery
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes they are, it was a Mystery. Thats why Paul as a New Covenant Minister turned to the Gentiles to fulfill his New Covenant Ministry Acts13 46-48
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we [as new covenant ministers] turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles[not jews] heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Now Vs 47 comes from Isaiah in context of the covenant
Isa 42:6
I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
See the Gentile inclusion has always been part of His Covenant Decrees before the foundation Acts 15:17-18
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
These are works of the everlasting covenant
Victoria
Active Member
The Body of Christ is a mystery revealed by the apostle Paul, not Peter. Different ministries.
Judas Iscariot was replaced "meaning" Matthias filled Judas' spot in the ministry & apostleship w/ the eleven,
making it once again twelve disciples.
Reason I posted Leviticus was to demonstrate that those "same" heathen mentioned there, Paul's ministry was to... hence he was the apostle of the Gentiles. Romans 11:13; Galatians 2:8; 1 Timothy 2:7; 2 Timothy 1:11
No where did I ever say Gentiles (heathen) were part of the new covenant. My original post was about just that, in which that is the only thing I can agree on w/ you.
Paul wasn't one of the twelve, jeremiah. Acts 15; Galatians 2
Salvation went to the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy. Romans 11
You really need to purge yourself of the previous Judaism doctrine.
The Body of Christ is separate, a mystery that was kept hid in God until revealed to the apostle Paul that both Jew, & Gentile alike can become members of One body, Jesus' body, upon believing Paul's Gospel. Presently during the dispensation of grace, Jews don't hold special status above the Gentiles like in time past. The middle wall of partition was removed. Ephesians 2:14
In the Body of Christ, we have no ethnicity, no gender. Jesus is our new identity. Debunks the "Hebrews only" nonsense.
Victoria
Active Member
The JW wanted to bring in another JW for the very same thing you're attempting to do here. If it's not a literal interpretation, kept in context, then one can make scripture say anything they please. That then makes man the final authority, not God. How then can a fable be tested if not interpreted literally in places one applies a figurative/allegorical interpretation?
Invented by Augustine, Red. It's just not scriptural if all believers can't test it w/ scripture.
Victoria
Active Member
You disagree w/ Ephesians 2:8-9, Red?
If faith is indeed a work, you're then lacking faith by not placing your complete trust in the finished work at the cross. The only way we can put off the old man, & walk in the Spirit, is by allowing the Spirit to renew our minds. This can only be made possible by following Jesus through whom He sent to the Gentiles. Paul states that's a command. Once you place yourself in the wrong audience, you'll end up mixing law w/ grace. This is a vital mistake the religious make.
It's Christs' faith that keeps us b/c we're sealed once saved, amen!
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:13-14
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30
brightfame52
Active Member
So what does ones Faith completely trust about the finished work of the Cross of Christ? What does it mean and accomplish and for who?
Victoria
Active Member
Greetings brightfame52,
It's when you believe something to be true, & you trust it. It happens in an instant, doesn't require work.
Think of it like this...
When someone tells us something that's true, & we know it to be true, does it require work to believe it?
It's like that w/ believing the Gospel of Christ. That's true faith, which God counts for righteousness
If we believe Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, & rose again the third day... placing complete trust in Jesus Christ as our Saviour... it doesn't require work to keep believing this, unless we believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
It accomplishes salvation for all who believe.
brightfame52
Active Member
Did the death of Christ alone save all for whom He died? Does faith believe that? Yes or no
jeremiah1five
Active Member
I used my whole brain God blessed me with to identify false doctrine, the kind that you hold to and you're unwilling to answer my questions in obedience to God who said to always be ready to give answer to those that ask of the hope in you with meekness and fear. But that is the typical response - or should I say, non-response - from those who have not and cannot withstand the Word of God in my soul.
Typical.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
It doesn't matter your misinterpreted passages in the New Testament. The bottom line is that the interpretation you've come up with has no Old Testament validity because while we have the shadow of things to come, your interpretation of the actual 'type' does not match what Israel's prophets had said as prophets of the LORD God and who prophesied the New Covenant that is between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah to the exclusion of all others. This includes non-Hebrew Gentiles.
Where in the Old Covenant does it tell you how to be saved?
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Thank you for your response.
Paul wasn't at the last Passover with Jesus and His twelve disciples when Jesus introduced "His body" and "His blood" under the Law that by partaking of the bread were later the first to be baptized into that "body" that Christ identified was His. When the Comforter arrived the eleven disciples in the upper room received God's Spirit as Peter spoke of in his sermon to the Jews on Pentecost.
The replacement of Judas by Peter and the other ten disciples with Matthias directly disobeyed Jesus' instruction and command for the disciples to return to Jerusalem and "tarry" ("wait" and do nothing but wait) until they were endued with power from on high.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. Luke 24:49.
The word "tarry" is defined as follows:
Strong's #2523 is a verb.
Greek Word: καθίζω
Transliteration: kathizō
it means:
another (active) form for [#2516] (kathezomai); to seat down, i.e. set (figurative appoint); intransitive to sit (down); figurative to settle (hover, dwell):
This was not a 'figurative' command from the Lord, it was a direct command to return to Jerusalem and wait UNTIL they were endued with power from on high. In other words, Jesus told the eleven to return to Jerusalem and wait for the Holy Spirit, who descended ten days later (Pentecost.) As you can see the word literally means to wait, to "seat/sit down" and WAIT.
But what did Peter do? He didn't "seat/sit down" and wait.
HE STOOD UP!
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. Acts 1:15–16.
In Jewish culture the common body position for someone who is teaching is sitting down. When someone commands the floor or is about to 'officiate' in some purpose of function they STAND UP.
Peter disobeyed the Lord and led the other disciples in a purpose and function to replace Judas who committed suicide days earlier, and Peter does this without guidance from the Holy Spirit who wasn't at this meeting.
So, Peter was, as they say, "IN THE FLESH" when he led the disciples at this meeting. No Holy Spirit.
Peter was leaning on his own understanding in the vanity of his mind as he proceeded to bring up Judas and what happened (which they all knew) and said that he needed to be REPLACED. Now the question is...replaced for WHAT?
Judas had two ministries. One was as treasurer of the outfit who "held the bag (of money.)" The other was as evangelist and herald who along with the other disciples preached the kingdom of heaven to the lost sheep of the House of Israel (Matt. 10:5-6), a ministry that was completed once they returned to Jesus. So, this ministry was completed. Mission accomplished. His apostleship (commission) along with the other eleven was finished and this apostleship ended. The important thing was Peter, and the others proceeded to perform official 'church' business in order to install a treasurer to replace Judas who would "hold the bag" as Judas once did. Now, from resurrect day to when Jesus ascended is a window of forty days. In these forty days Luke said:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:3–5.
During these forty days Jesus was speaking of things pertaining to the kingdom of God. As Head of the body of Christ Jesus had ample opportunity to replace Judas if that was His will but we find in the text Jesus did nothing of the sort. Instead, Jesus commanded them again to WAIT for the Promise of the Father (the Holy Spirit) which John says would take place "not many days hence" (or soon to come.) Peter and the disciples were commanded to WAIT!
And so we have a record of the disciples' disobedience to NOT wait but as fools rushed headlong in a meeting to replace Judas Iscariot with Matthias. And since God does not bless disobedience what followed was the result of the disciples outright disobeying their Lord and 'handling' official church business. AND without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They are all "in the flesh" and clearly disobeying the Lord who told them to WAIT.
Now, if you want to believe what the disciples did was sanctioned by the Lord think again. Jesus' commands were not being obeyed as you can see. It was a rebellion. Peter was supposedly the leader of the church in Jerusalem, that is, until Peter himself was later replaced by James, the Lord's brother, as the leader of the Jerusalem Church. Above you said:
Victoria: "Judas Iscariot was replaced "meaning" Matthias filled Judas' spot in the ministry & apostleship w/ the eleven, making it once again twelve disciples."
Do you still want to hold to that belief? Do you now actually believe what the disciples did - without the Lord's sanction and the guidance of the Holy Spirit - was authorized by Christ and what the Head of the Church wanted done after He ascended? As the eleven disciples died and martyred in time who replaced them in order to keep the number at twelve as you hold to above? Who replaced Peter? Who replaced Andrew? Who replaced Saul when they died or were killed? In reality what you believe and hold to is called "Apostolic Succession", this is the same way Popes are chosen to be vicar of the Roman Catholic See. Do you believe this is God's authorized method in replacing apostles and ministers in His Church? And if we are to be true to form and choose out replacement for ministers in the church to do it WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT?!
Saul wasn't the only 'apostle to the Gentiles', there were others who went to the Gentiles to reach out to Jews living among them to tell them about Israel's Messiah, Lord, and Savior, and King Jesus the Christ. Many people—and most famously the Apostle Saul—traveled to cities with large Gentile populations specifically to preach to the Jews of the Diaspora (the "scattered" Jews). The mission strategy for the earliest Christians was often to go "to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16, KJV). The Diaspora synagogues provided a perfect platform for this. Gentiles had no interest is a Jewish Messiah and King. How did a message TO the Jews and mixed heritage Jews get turned into a message FOR the Gentiles? Saul, as rabbi and Pharisee, knew God made no covenant with Gentiles. He says himself "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets" (Acts 24:13–14.)
In the beginning of the Church, it was composed of small numbers of born-again Jews from different walks of life. How were they going to convince the majority of Jews that non-Hebrew Gentiles were included with the Jewish people in the worship of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and were included in the Hebrew covenants without Old Testament support? Think about that a moment. Some of the Jewish people just witnessed the crucifixion of a man who claimed to be the Son of God and a supposed 'lawbreaker' that this man from Nazareth was vested by God with the authority to CHANGE the Law of Moses in order to bring Gentiles into the sheepfold and into their covenants? Is that the 'make' of it?
I see that. I wanted confirmation I read what I read.
Now that's true. Nor was he of a 'different' or special class.
Samaritans were a despised class of Jew to the Jews because they were mixed-race. When you understand that "Gentile" in the New Testament referred to the descendants of mixed-race Jews of the two southern kingdom tribes of the Diaspora then it makes sense than to outright contradict the whole of the Old Testament that records no significant relationship between the God of Abraham and Gentiles having some unspoken and unwritten instruction or plan to include those uncircumcised heathens (the real non-Hebrew Gentile) they were to be included in Israel's inheritance and also to be redeemed the same way God Promised throughout their Hebrew writings to the Hebrew people? Being sent "to the Gentiles" because that's where the majority of Jews and mixed-race Jews lived would be the same as sending ministers to Russia because that's where most Russian Jews lived who needed to know about their Promised Messiah had come - and gone - and did a great service to the Jewish people in the mission He claimed He was sent by God His Father to do in dying on a Roman cross the same way the animal was sacrificed by the high priest for the atonement of the people under the Law from the problem of sin and death that prevented the true worship of their God.
When you become honest with Scripture as written, and if the Lord open your eyes, maybe you will see as Jesus sees and take out (exegesis) true knowledge of the Lord. I am saying the same thing as God in the Old Testament. I am not adding to the Bible, nor making Jesus change the Law, which is what one has to believe happened without Old Testament support Jesus actually did change the Law to include their most avowed enemy - the uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles.
As the Lord's last Passover revealed to Peter and the eleven taking the bread consecrated to God was the taking and inclusion that day - or for many at some future date - into the body of Jesus the Christ of the Living God.
So, Jesus DID change the Law then. He changed the Law - thus destroying the Law - so that non-Hebrew Gentiles can be included in the same Abrahamic inheritance in the covenant God made with Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13), and his Hebrew seed; to include non-Hebrew Gentiles along with Abraham's Hebrew seed as the children of Israel through Moses and the covenant made with Jews in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle through him; and to be included in a New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah made between the God of Abraham and the House of Israel and the House of Judah?
Is that the "Hebrew nonsense" you're talking about?
@Victoria
Augustine did indeed believe and taught this toward the end of his life, yet he only saw some of the truth of Amill idealist position. His exposition concerning Revelation 20 was excellent. But, his understanding was not enlarge upon sad to say by the Reformers, since Catholicism has had such a strong hold, (they limited the man of sin to the Pope's) and many other cults had not yet been born into this world as there are here today in millions other than RCC/EOC. If they were here today( the Reformers) they would include~the Mormons, SDA, Jehovah Witnesses, and Pentecostalism, etc., no doubt.
Not sure what you mean with these words. We can and should test all doctrines with the scriptures.
@Victoria
In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
So, dear sister, I do not disagree with Paul's teaching, and the only sense that could be given to Ephesians 2:8,9.
Leaving soon to be with a group of believers in the middle of nowhere. Not even sure if there a red light within five miles or more, maybe one within ten miles A lot of cows, goats, horses, deer, etc.
No, I do not disagree with Ephesians 2:8,9 has taught by Paul.
In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
So, dear sister, I do not disagree with Paul's teaching, and the only sense that could be given to Ephesians 2:8,9.
It is indeed....
Matthew 23:23
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”1st John 3:23
“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”Victoria, we should put our faith totally in the cross of Christ, and put off the old man and his deeds but this is only possible after we are born of the Spirit of God, not before.
Leaving soon to be with a group of believers in the middle of nowhere. Not even sure if there a red light within five miles or more, maybe one within ten miles
A lot of cows, goats, horses, deer, etc.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Amen, amen
brightfame52
Active Member
I'm giving you the truth
jeremiah1five
Active Member
It doesn't to my knowledge tell YOU how to be saved, it presents salvation is given by God through covenant, beginning with the Abrahamic Covenant which is given to Abram the Hebrew (Genesis 14:13) and his Hebrew seed. The Mosaic Covenant builds upon the Abraham Covenant with the giving of God's Law to the children of Israel thus officially making Israel a political nation now that they have a government with Laws that guide the population in its treatment one should have for oneself, how to treat others in this covenant, and how to treat others who are not in this covenant, such as non-Hebrew Gentiles. The Mosaic Covenant is fulfillment of a promise made by God to Abraham that his covenant promises were extended to his Hebrew seed and in the Mosaic Covenant God instructed and commanded instruction and command to the children of Israel of a spiritual or religious nature, including the substitutionary sacrifice of certain animals whose purpose was the temporary atonement from sin and its penalty which was death - physical, spiritual, and eternal separation from God. Contained in this Mosaic covenant were promises/prophecies from God to Israel to send a Deliverer who would destroy Israel's enemies including the great enemy which was death (physical, spiritual, eternal.) The Old Covenant doesn't tell "you" how to be saved directly, but it does tell "you" who was to be saved eternally, and that was targeted to those who were under the La w, meaning the children of Israel through covenant which was a foundation covenant and part one of a three-part plan for the salvation of the Hebrew people who were under the scope of the Mosaic Covenant Law and promises. This included a third part in the plan of God to save the Hebrew people with a promise of a New Covenant which included the ten northern kingdom tribes called the House of Israel, and two southern kingdom tribes called the House of Judah equaling twelve tribes in total. The mechanism for their salvation is tied to the Mosaic Covenant in some respects including the religious sacrifice of God's own Son, Yeshua bar Yosef, who died under the Law to atone the sins of the people under the Law, that is, the children of Israel. The New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah and fulfilled personally by God's own Son in human flesh is only the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Jesus Christ.
The Old Covenant "told" you how to be saved and that was by being part of the covenants that preceded it, the Abraham and Mosaic Covenants. The verse that describes what God did is written by Saul to Jews and Jewish Christians living in the Galatian Region:
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Galatians 4:1–7.
There was a process. It began with Abraham and ended with Jesus. Saul further clarifies salvation in this manner by identifying its parts in order to understand the whole:
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were eaccursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth
the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever.
Amen.
Romans 9:1–5.
The "HOW" is in verse 4.
The "WHO" is "the Israelites."
From Abraham the promises God made passed down through the generations on through the centuries until we come to Jesus. He is the subject of Israel's salvation, and the mechanism is the Mosaic Law, specifically the Ceremonial Laws guiding the temporary atonement until a permanent atonement could be accomplished through the sacrifice of God's own Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Answering "how" is more complicated since God's plan for the salvation and redemption of the Hebrew people spanned centuries, each section at its predetermined appointed time.
brightfame52
Active Member
The mosaic law Covenant was fulfilled by Christ and initiated into the new covenant in which the mystery of the Gentiles inclusion/graffing in is revealed.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
So in essence you are saying every Old Testament believer who received and trusted God’s covenant promises was predestined and chosen in Christ before the world began, and they were saved exactly the same way we are: by grace through faith in the coming Redeemer?
Not “those given covenant were predestined” ..... rather, God predestined from eternity whom He would bring into His one covenant of grace, and then in history He revealed that covenant in stages (Abrahamic, Mosaic, New, etc)?
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