The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man

[Victoria]

Are you saying that those of Israel who were saved do not have the promise of the heavenly inheritance. Also, what do you think Revelation 21:1 means when it says, "the first heaven and the first earth had passed away"?

Paul speaks of one having celestial bodies [the Body of Christ], the other having terrestrial bodies [Israel].
No where does Paul ever mention the Body of Christ being on the earth.

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one,
and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1 Corinthians 15:40

Celestial: Of or relating to heaven; divine.
Terrestrial: Of or relating to the earth or its inhabitants.


Paul not long after goes on to describe the mystery resurrection.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/50/s_1077050

 

[Jim]

Paul speaks of one having celestial bodies [the Body of Christ], the other having terrestrial bodies [Israel].
No where does Paul ever mention the Body of Christ being on the earth.

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one,
and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1 Corinthians 15:40

Celestial: Of or relating to heaven; divine.
Terrestrial: Of or relating to the earth or its inhabitants.


Paul not long after goes on to describe the mystery resurrection.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/50/s_1077050

If I understand you, I don't believe much of what you are suggesting here. 1 Corinthians 15 is not presenting two different realms, celestial and terrestrial, that will exist following the resurrection. Rather, what is presented is a comparison between now and what is to be following the resurrection.

 

[Victoria]

Are you saying that those of Israel who were saved do not have the promise of the heavenly inheritance. Also, what do you think Revelation 21:1 means when it says, "the first heaven and the first earth had passed away"?

Both Jew, & Gentile alike have direct access to God during the dispensation of grace. Those saved during this time until we're caught up to meet the Lord in the air will have the heavenly inheritance.

There will be a new heaven, & a new earth in the future. 2 Peter 3 is a good cross reference to Revelation 21.

And just how so you interpret the wife of God literally?

The scriptures tell us that Jesus came to His bride in the Old Testament (everything prior to the cross).
It was Israel, not Gentiles. The Gentiles were considered dogs in time past.

God was married to Israel in the past, but gave her a bill of divorce b/c of her adultery. The book of Hosea is God painting a future picture of how He will remarry her, & to the land He promised Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob.

But that does not mean that the teachings of the twelve are inappropriate for Gentiles. Peter's recognition that, "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him"(Acts 10:34), is echoed in Paul's statement that "There is neither Jew nor Greek"(Gal 3:28).

Not inappropriate at all, Jim. I agree. We're to study the entire Bible, only, we should know our place. What's promised to Israel, is Israel's. What's promised to the Body of Christ, is the Body of Christ's. In 2 Timothy 2:15, we're instructed to rightly divide.

And once again, this has nothing to do with the faith of Jesus versus the faith of man.

I was only confirming what @jeremiah1five was saying is Biblically accurate.

 

[Victoria]

If I understand you, I don't believe much of what you are suggesting here. 1 Corinthians 15 is not presenting two different realms, celestial and terrestrial, that will exist following the resurrection. Rather, what is presented is a comparison between now and what is to be following the resurrection.

There's only twelve thrones mentioned in Revelation 21. Paul won't be there, he'll be in heaven.
Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot. Acts 1:21-26

 

[Jim]

I was only confirming what @jeremiah1five was saying is Biblically accurate.

But it is not.

 

[Victoria]

But it is not.

God doesn't break covenants. He meant what He said. We should just be grateful that He grafted us in to be saved as well, & not sentenced to an eternity of torment. Praise the Lord!

 

[Jim]

There's only twelve thrones mentioned in Revelation 21. Paul won't be there, he'll be in heaven.
Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot. Acts 1:21-26

And where do you think those twelve thrones will be? Do you think that there will be a new physical earth? It seems so.

 

[Victoria]

And where do you think those twelve thrones will be? Do you think that there will be a new physical earth? It seems so.

We live on a physical earth right now. Why not a new physical earth? There can't be nations w/out an earth.

 

[Jim]

We live on a physical earth right now. Why not a new physical earth? There can't be nations w/out an earth.

And will there be automobiles there? Or will we be back to walking from place to place? Or maybe we really will have wings and we will be able to fly from place to place? I don't think that those who think the "new heavens and new earth" will be a physical existence have really thought through what that would really mean.

Why when nearly all of our troubles here in this physical existence derive from the that physical existence would you want more of that? Remember that our spirits have not one thing to do with atoms, molecules, chemistry, physics, biology or any of that fleshly, physical, stuff.

 

[Jim]

God doesn't break covenants. He meant what He said. We should just be grateful that He grafted us in to be saved as well, & not sentenced to an eternity of torment. Praise the Lord!

But He does end covenants. God didn't graft us into the old covenant.

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Victoria]

But that does not mean that the teachings of the twelve are inappropriate for Gentiles. Peter's recognition that, "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him"(Acts 10:34), is echoed in Paul's statement that "There is neither Jew nor Greek"(Gal 3:28).

One thing I forgot to mention, Peter's warning...

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2 Peter 3:15-16


If we don't rightly divide, the unlearned, & unstable wrest the scriptures. Paul, & Peter had different ministries.

But He does end covenants. God didn't graft us into the old covenant.

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Jesus came to fulfill the Mosaic Law, & will establish a new covenant w/ the house of Israel, & the house of Judah in the future. Presently, the Jews are still scattered to other countries.


Promise of Restoration
Ezekiel 11:16-20; Amos 9:11-15

Israel to Be Renewed for His Name's Sake [NOT Theirs]
Ezekiel 36:22-28

A New Covenant
Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-12

New Heavens and a New Earth
Isaiah 65:17-25; 2 Peter 3:10-16; Revelation 21

 

[Victoria]

And will there be automobiles there? Or will we be back to walking from place to place? Or maybe we really will have wings and we will be able to fly from place to place? I don't think that those who think the "new heavens and new earth" will be a physical existence have really thought through what that would really mean.

We'll be the new administration in the heavens. Satan, & his minions get kicked out of the heavens mid-way through the tribulation (Revelation 12:7-12) following the Judgment Seat of Christ. Could we be those rejoicing in verse 12?

Why when nearly all of our troubles here in this physical existence derive from the that physical existence would you want more of that? Remember that our spirits have not one thing to do with atoms, molecules, chemistry, physics, biology or any of that fleshly, physical, stuff.

There will be no more sin, no more evil come time, Jim. No worries.

 

[Jim]

One thing I forgot to mention, Peter's warning...

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2 Peter 3:15-16


If we don't rightly divide, the unlearned, & unstable wrest the scriptures. Paul, & Peter had different ministries.

Jesus came to fulfill the Mosaic Law, & will establish a new covenant w/ the house of Israel, & the house of Judah in the future. Presently, the Jews are still scattered to other countries.


Promise of Restoration
Ezekiel 11:16-20; Amos 9:11-15

Israel to Be Renewed for His Name's Sake [NOT Theirs]
Ezekiel 36:22-28

A New Covenant
Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-12

New Heavens and a New Earth
Isaiah 65:17-25; 2 Peter 3:10-16; Revelation 21

If you think the ministries of Paul and Peter contained different gospels, then you are on a completely different wavelength. It is true that the primary audiences of Paul and Peter were different. But the gospels that they preached were precisely the same. What Paul preached was applicable to the Jew and what Peter preached was applicable to the Gentile (Gal 3:15-29).

 

[Jim]

We'll be the new administration in the heavens. Satan, & his minions get kicked out of the heavens mid-way through the tribulation (Revelation 12:7-12) following the Judgment Seat of Christ. Could we be those rejoicing in verse 12?

I think your views, interpretations, of Revelation are all screwed up and I will just leave it at that.

 

[Victoria]

If you think the ministries of Paul and Peter contained different gospels, then you are on a completely different wavelength. It is true that the primary audiences of Paul and Peter were different. But the gospels that they preached were precisely the same. What Paul preached was applicable to the Jew and what Peter preached was applicable to the Gentile (Gal 3:15-29).

Then would you say the following are true simultaneously?

The apostle Paul:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Romans 4:4

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works,
then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 11:6

The apostle Peter:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing
shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 3:19

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only... For as the body without the spirit is dead,
so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:24; 26

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6


The Gospel of the kingdom Jesus, & the twelve preached...

The Kingdom of God is often associated with healing in the teachings of Jesus, as he sent his disciples to heal the sick and proclaim that the Kingdom was near (Luke 9:2; Luke 10:9). Healing was a significant part of Jesus' ministry, demonstrating God's compassion and the presence of His Kingdom among people (Matthew 4:23-24).


The Gospel of Christ that Paul preached...

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;
to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision [Gentiles] was committed unto me [Paul], as the gospel of the circumcision [Jews] was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [Paul & Barnabas] should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Galatians 2:7-9


The difference between the two is those saved today, the Body of Christ, already receive the atonement. Israel, on the other hand, still awaits an atonement, born again as a nation. That's what Jacob's Trouble is all about.

 

[Victoria]

I think your views, interpretations, of Revelation are all screwed up and I will just leave it at that.

If your method of interpretation is a more figurative/allegorical approach, sure.
We can just agree to disagree respectfully, w/ grace.

 

[brightfame52]

The spiritual seed of Abraham is the same natural seed of Abraham

False

 

[brightfame52]

Rejoice does not mean inclusion into any of the Hebrew covenants.

Yes that scripture shows the inclusion of the Gentiles in with the New Covenant which was foretold by Jeremiah

 

[Jim]

Then would you say the following are true simultaneously?

The apostle Paul:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Romans 4:4

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works,
then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 11:6

The apostle Peter:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing
shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 3:19

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only... For as the body without the spirit is dead,
so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:24; 26

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6


The Gospel of the kingdom Jesus, & the twelve preached...

The Kingdom of God is often associated with healing in the teachings of Jesus, as he sent his disciples to heal the sick and proclaim that the Kingdom was near (Luke 9:2; Luke 10:9). Healing was a significant part of Jesus' ministry, demonstrating God's compassion and the presence of His Kingdom among people (Matthew 4:23-24).


The Gospel of Christ that Paul preached...

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;
to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision [Gentiles] was committed unto me [Paul], as the gospel of the circumcision [Jews] was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [Paul & Barnabas] should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Galatians 2:7-9


The difference between the two is those saved today, the Body of Christ, already receive the atonement. Israel, on the other hand, still awaits an atonement, born again as a nation. That's what Jacob's Trouble is all about.

Jesus said, "It is finished" (John 19:30). If you do not understand that, then it seems you have not idea what "it" is. That is clearly demonstrated by your remarks above.

 

[civic]

Greetings Jim,

I hope you, & yours had a lovely Thanksgiving

I was just sharing some scriptures to help show what @jeremiah1five said is indeed Biblically accurate. That's all.

Greetings Red,

And I hope you, & yours too had a lovely Thanksgiving

A JW too once told me that she's been a Jehovah's Witness for four decades. If we can reason w/ one another that, no matter how long someone has been in the faith, no one is immune to deception. Would you agree? The apostle Paul speaks of an apostasy that would occur toward the end of God's grace period (i.e. 1 Timothy 4; 2 Timothy 3; 2 Timothy 4).

I was a Calvinist for over 40 years