Victoria
Active Member
Given your response is coming from a place of defensiveness, & not of charity, I'll pass.
But thank you.
The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
- Thread starter MTMattie
- Start date
But thank you.
I agree with much of what you posted there, except your apparent interpretation of 1 Corinthians 2:11-14. That entire chapter is a statement of and a defense of Paul's and the other apostles' and prophets' divine inspiration. It establishes the difference between the divinely inspired servant of God and the ordinary human being. It is not stating a difference between the lost and the saved.
Far too many think that chapter speaks to some special meaning, insight, and message from God himself to the born again Christian. It is not. Such messages simply do not happen. Other than to the apostles and prophets of God, no such divinely inspired messages are given. In those verses, the "spiritual person" is the apostle or the prophet for God; it is not the ordinary child of God. The "natural person" is the ordinary human being, unsaved or saved.
In verse 16 where it says, "But we have the mind of Christ" is only speaking of the apostles and prophets. If that were true of the born again child of God, there would be no divisions or disputes at all. The mind of Christ is not divided.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Christ’s death and resurrection alone SAVE..... but they save us ONLY when we are joined to Him by faith.
Christ’s death and resurrection alone provide the full payment for sin; faith alone is the empty hand that receives that payment and makes it ours personally.
brightfame52
Active Member
Okay take care
brightfame52
Active Member
So then you contradict yourself. Faith is separate from the death and Resurrection of Christ. So to be honest you have to say no, the death and Resurrection in and of itself doesn't save.
brightfame52
Active Member
The Elect were in Christ before the foundation of the world by election, as so were their names written in the lambs book of life from the foundation of the world.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Alright.
Now if salvation was through covenant, as you have always maintained... then it is because you also have maintained, at least when I DMed you a few times... that there is no new covenant that covers Gentiles.
Assuming you believe this, and I am beyond arguing that point with you.... why in the world then , (if salvation was a covenant thing (OT covenant) )
first ~ did Jesus have to be sent back for His lost sheep of Israel? Were they not automatically covered by heritage and blood?
AND~ Why in the world did Jesus have to be tortured to death if they were covered under their covenant?
civic
Active Member
I would add to this the distinction of understanding spiritual things is given by the Holy Spirit in us. So living by the spirit, not quenching the spirit, being filled with the spirit, walking in the spirit ( all commands for believers to obey ) leads to having the fruit of the spirit in our lives. We will have understanding when it comes to the things of God. There is a difference between carnal/ flesh thinking and spiritual thinking having a mindset on the spirit- hence its called the mind of Christ.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
ditto
FreeInChrist
Active Member
No contradiction at all — it’s exactly like a perfect wedding ring and a “Yes, I do.”
The ring is 100 % perfect, 100 % valuable, and 100 % sufficient to make someone married.
But the ring only makes you married when the bride puts it on and says “I do” — that “yes” doesn’t add anything to the ring’s value; it simply receives it.
Same with the gospel:
Christ’s death and resurrection are 100 % perfect, 100 % finished, 100 % sufficient to save every sinner.
Faith is not an extra payment — it is the empty hand that says “Yes, that finished work is now mine.”
So I can honestly say both at the same time, just like Scripture does:
The death and resurrection of Jesus alone save ..... Romans 5:9–10; 1 Cor 15:3–4
We are saved through faith ...... Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:1
There is no contradiction, because faith is not a work that contributes — it is the God-given instrument that receives the salvation Christ alone accomplished.
Christ’s death and resurrection alone save .... and the moment faith receives that finished work, perfect salvation, it becomes yours personally. Faith adds nothing to the price; it simply takes the free gift.
brightfame52
Active Member
What the person does is separate from what Christ did. A persons believing or faith didnt die for sin and rise again from the dead.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
What exactly is that "stone of stumbling"? What is a "rock of offense", and why a rock? A rock is hard, it is weighty.
The answer is found in the event that occurred in the book of Numbers.
In the Old Testament the "serpent" or "snake" represented two things that on the face contradict each other.
6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Numbers 21:6–9.
The serpent/snake was the very animal that deceived the woman and represents that as well as "cunning", "evil", and "sin." In their minds it has a negative connotation, even that of being "adversary."
In the Book of Numbers, the image of the serpent takes on a unique and seemingly opposite meaning: healing and deliverance and prefigures Christ. But it was after the resurrection that is represents Christ. The serpent in the OT represents the poison of sin and the power of the Adversary (Genesis 3), but the brass serpent on the pole represents the divine provision for healing and salvation from that very poison.
At Pentecost and beyond that when Jews were becoming "born-again" by the thousands daily (Acts 2:47), and the story of the death of Jesus the Christ/Messiah, Lord, and King made its rounds these Jewish Christians returned to their homes and synagogues with an outline of Peter's sermon, testimony of Jesus the Christ, and their experience with the Holy Spirit of Promise, the New Covenant prophesied by one of their prophets, Jeremiah, was on everyone's minds. It was exciting, and this "new thing" God was doing 'in the earth' took center stage in conversations among the people. But soon, God's Divine provision for healing and salvation came with a pre-installed difficulty that the Jews could not all wrap their minds around. How can a thing cursed of God - the serpent of Genesis - also be intertwined with a message of hope and deliverance and salvation? The Law states that anyone that hung on a tree was cursed. How can a person (Jesus) who hung on a tree (cross of wood) and cursed of God also be their King? It was offensive. It was very difficult to reconcile in their Jewish minds. In the beginning these "Christians", these followers of Jesus the supposed Way (to the God of Abraham) was being witnessed among the Jews and the more traditional Jews "balked" at the thought that their Messiah, Lord, and King was also an object of cursing and judgment form God. As what happened to Saul, the beginning saw first Jews that blasphemed the thought which led to persecution and then injury (killing).
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 1 Timothy 1:12–13.
In Acts 7 Luke records these hardened Jews attack and kill a man named Stephen and Saul was one of the perpetrators. In Acts 8 outright persecution and injury was leveled against this new sect of "Judaism" and Christian Jews were being attacked by their brethren the Jews.
1 And Saul was consenting unto his death.
And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. Acts 8:1.
The apostles did not obey Jesus to go to Samaria, Judaea, and the uttermost parts of the earth where Jews lived among Gentiles to herald the good news of Messiah's advent, it was the common folk. The gospel message did go out but it was by the born-again Jews God through persecution caused to scatter and, in their scattering, told other Jews what happened to them (Pentecost) and what transpired to a Jew who claimed to be king and deliverer of the people of Israel.
That "stone of stumbling" and "rock of offense" Jews could not get past was the testimony of the people who witnessed it how a man who 'hung on a tree' and was cursed of God was also their Savior and King. For the most part Jews were a sensible people, but this fact as testified by others about Jesus also caused great alarm and dismay because in their minds Jesus' crucifixion was a stumbling stone they could not get past to see also the other side of that "fiery serpent on a pole" and the "curse among the people" was indeed their long-awaited Son of God and Savior of the Jewish people.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 9:30–33.
Along with the ability of the Spirit of Promise to open men's hearts (Lydia) He came with the power to harden their hearts and force violent conflict. And these mixed-race "Gentiles" that never "followed after righteousness" because they grew up in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture and were "[at] that at that time were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" (Eph 2:12) knew nothing of their Hebrew heritage, their culture and their religion (Law of Moses) because they did not trust the prophets - Moses, Jeremiah, and Isaiah - who prophesied exactly the miraculous birth of their Savior and the lamb led to the slaughter by the God of Israel. God Himself gave the Hebrew people a fiery serpent on a pole/cross and told the people to "look on 'it'" in order to be saved. They stumbled at that stumbling stone", that "rock of offense" that offended their sensibilities and brought with it judgment as well as healing and salvation. To them the 'letter of the Law' was so ingrained in their consciences they could not - without the Spirit's help - understand the 'spirit of the Law' in order to be saved. It was a vicious 'catch-22', God had put into their deliverance and redemption that many could not see through because God had blinded their eyes and "therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them" John 12:37–40.
Without this 'stopgap' placed intentionally into the gospel message of salvation by God millions more Jews would be saved and not just thousands day by day. The evangelistic fervor prophesied for Israel in the last days would have been short-circuited' and Jesus would have returned within days, exactly what their Jewish minds also understood by Jesus' last words, "I will come again."
FreeInChrist
Active Member
But Christ did not die for all.
IS THIS A LIE? Romans 8: 29-30
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Do you have any comprehension of what this means?
Faith is not an optional extra; it is the only way any person — past, present, or future — is ever joined to Christ and declared righteous.
A Christian without faith is a contradiction in terms ... the moment genuine faith is gone, the person is no longer united to Christ and is lost (see Romans 11:20–22; Hebrews 3:12–14).”
So:
Saving faith can be weak, struggling, or small as a mustard seed — but it must be real and present.
No faith at all = no salvation, no matter what someone once prayed or what church they attend.
You call faith separate... I call faith necessary as does scripture.... YOU go right ahead an ignore it and see what happens.
It wont be pretty
Hey there @civic. I think I know what you are trying to say. But as stated there I cannot agree, We are not given understanding. We are given the strength or the power to engage our minds to the study of God's word. But we are not given and understanding, since if we were there would be no disagreements among Christians. God is not divided, even though the understanding of God's word is terribly divided. And the mind of Christ is not divided either. What you are describing is what is often called the doctrine of illumination. It is false. The word of God is truth. There is only one truth for every statement in God's word. We strive to come to know that truth, but only the power to do so is given, not the understanding of that truth. It remains on us to use that strength and power to find that truth. We don't always do that. All too often we subvert that strength and power through an adherence to a previously held concept which all too often is false. Hence Calvinism built upon the writings of Augustine rather than on God's actual word.
I am not sure what you are asking. I think John 1 lays it all out in perfect clarity, that with the rest of Scripture which is in complete agreement.
civic
Active Member
so you would agree the plain meaning of the text says Jesus is God correct ? Anyone can understand its true ?
how would you apply this passage to that understanding that Jesus is God/Lord. The latter part of the passage is my question. No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
And Jesus words to Peter below are parallel statements.
Matthew 16:16-17
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” / Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.
brightfame52
Active Member
What do you mean?
I do not believe that we, like Simon Peter, received the divine message that Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God directly from God. I do believe it is by God, through the work of the Holy Spirit to produce God's written revelation, that we know the truth about Christ. Were it not for that special revelation, the written word, we could not know about Jesus. So yes, it is by the Holy Spirit. But no, not by divinely inspired teaching direct from God.
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