I try very hard to understand when scripture is figurative/ allegorical and when scripture is literal. When either method produces a dichotomy as you have stated then one must seriously consider the other.
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The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man
- Thread starter MTMattie
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Yes, we did enjoy Thanksgiving.Greetings Jim,
I hope you, & yours had a lovely Thanksgiving
I was just sharing some scriptures to help show what @jeremiah1five said is indeed Biblically accurate. That's all.
I disagree with so much of what @jeremiah1five, and you apparently, thinks is biblically accurate. Salvation is and has always been by grace through faith. The Old Covenant, no matter what he thinks, was not a message of salvation but was rather a message of bringing salvation to the world.
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jeremiah1five
Active Member
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Not true. Jesus sent His twelve disciples to speak to the lost sheep of the House of Israel in the gospels and again before He ascended He sent the eleven among - or to the Gentiles - because that's where the majority of all living Jews lived being the offspring of those Hebrews taken into exile and captive into Assyrian and Babylonian lands as a result of their defeat by both kingdoms in 722 and 586 BC, respectively.
Their good news message? Simply this: God has kept His promise that their Messiah, Redeemer, Lord and King, Yeshua bar Yosef had come (and gone, later to return again.)
We are not all born-again and baptized into the body of Christ - of which only Hebrews and mixed-race Hebrews - belong - and taught we must all preach the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which teaching in the church today makes apostles out of all of us, something Saul taught was not true. Because of Saul's extensive Old Testament education and training and his ability to explain and discuss the Acts of the Holy Spirit in Israel and among the Jews in light of the New Covenant prophecy by Jeremiah along with other Old Testament doctrine gave him a unique ability not all Jews had. As rabbi and Pharisee - ministries in Israel he maintained throughout his life - meant he possibly had his own copies of the Scripture and in time (14-17 years) was able to interpret the Old Testament through the anointing and illumination of the Holy Spirit and write many letters to Jews and Jewish Christians that bear his authorship and whose copies we have that Gentiles made into a Bible, something never authorized by God.
The true Bride and Church as well as the body of Christ still remains Hebrew through and through. The Church Jesus promised to build began with the inclusion of three thousand Jews on the day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest (ca. AD 34) in Jerusalem and in the days, weeks, months, years that followed, Jesus specifically populated these with Jews and mixed-race Jews. They are all one and the same. Every day after Pentecost thousands of Jews were born-again and brought into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. The Bride is Israel, the Church is Israel, and the body of Christ is Israel. According to Jeremiah the New Covenant he prophesied included God, the House of Israel, and the House of Judah. All twelve tribes (including the descendants of Manassas and Ephraim - mixed-race Hebrews/Jews of Joseph and his Egyptian wife.)
Victoria
Active Member
We're saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone, not of works. Amen!
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Romans 11:13; Galatians 2:8; 1 Timothy 2:7; 2 Timothy 1:11
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Galatians 3:24-25
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Victoria
Active Member
When I was a babe in Christ, there was a non-believer I knew at the time who said to me that the Bible contradicts itself. Curious as to why someone would make such a claim, I decided to her out, & told her that I'd look into it. Turns out, she's both right, & wrong.
An ex-LDS once told me the Bible has errors in it. Again, he too was both right, & wrong.
In my situation, right division immediately cleared those misunderstandings up. It also prevented me from falling into religion, mixing law/grace. When I was able to provide them w/ reasonable answers, I found it helped us both learn something in the end.
Victoria
Active Member
My post was about the nation of Israel, & the bride, the Lamb's wife.
The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man | Page 12
I as well believe our salvation is only by grace alone through faith alone.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; Ephesians 2.8-9
Victoria
Active Member
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're basically saying God excludes the heathen?
If so, this is where you fall into error.
And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate,
and your cities waste.
Leviticus 26:33
Agree... Israel as a born-again nation will in the future inherit the land God promised Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob.
Disagree... the Body of Christ excludes non-Hebrews "aka" heathen during the dispensation of grace.
And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Acts 10:28
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4
To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Galatians 1:16
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Galatians 2:9
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female:
for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Galatians 3:8
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Does God "replace" in the body of Christ, or does He "add" to the body of Christ?
Think about that.
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 2:47.
Or is this true:
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29.
You are falling for the Gentile textbook response of Judas' salvation. The mainline Gentile "church" believe Judas is eternally separated from God. This is not true. They claim Judas didn't "repent", but repentance is nowhere found as a doctrine that evidenced salvation as he lived and died under the Law. And while there is evidence Judas changed his mind about his actions and being involved and complicit in the condemnation of an innocent man (Jesus), Matthew chapter 27 says this:
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Matthew 27:3–5.
This took place under the Law which was the guiding instruction for anyone who is found complicit in the condemnation of an innocent man (Jesus.)
1. Judas "saw" that Jesus was condemned to death and this the priests did unjustifiably. For one the Law prevents holding trial at night, especially past midnight and hidden from the people's knowledge.
2. It says Judas "repented" (had a change of mind.) Many hair-split and say this was not "genuine" repentance, but the word is a derivative of the Greek "metanoia" which simply means "to change one's mind" which is what Judas did as things he witness were showing signs injustice. This changed mind was what caused Judas to return to the priests and confess his being complicit in the condemnation of an innocent man (Jesus), and this directly led to him attempting to return the 30 pieces of silver in attempt to "buy back the life of Jesus", but if this isn't what John the Baptist said was "bringing forth fruits (acts) meet for repentance" then what is? In other words, actions speak louder than words and your words should match your actions and your actions match your words.
3. Under the Law what is the penalty for being complicit in the death (condemnation) of innocent men? The priests, with the support of the people, take the offender outside city limits and stone that person. The Law calls for "life for a life" (wound for wound, strike for strike.) But the astounding thing if you are honest with Scripture is what the priests said to Judas in response to his change of mind, his confession, and his attempt to restore/take back the 30 pieces of silver. They told Judas: "What is that to us? see thou to that!" In other words they told him "[that] has nothing to do with us. YOU handle it!"
4. Judas did. He rejected the mammon and threw it back at the priests in the Temple and went out and fulfilled the Law of Moses which called for "life for a life." In the end Judas was obedient to the Law of Moses. What he did called for retribution, which is legal under the Law of Moses, and he did what was required of him which actions and words find him submitted to the Law in this situation. Many do not interpret this under the Law. They try to apply "Christian logic" or theology, which did not apply at the time for these events occurred at least fifty days (Pentecost) after Passover and Jesus' ascension and the birth of the Church ten days later.
One more thing that many miss. There are two people in both Testaments in which God calls Abraham "Friend" and Jesus calls Judas "Friend." How significant is that? Does God condemn His friends to hell or eternal separation from God and His Christ? How many "friends" of God are actually in hell or sent to hell? How many apostles - true apostles - are there in hell? And if Jesus called Judas [an] "apostle" will you contradict Jesus and call Judas a "fake" apostle or "devil"-apostle? If Jesus called Judas an apostle in the same capacity as He called the other eleven His apostles, will you contradict Jesus?
12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,
16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.
Luke 6:12–16.
I don't deny Judas betrayed Jesus but when I ask others who resigned Judas to hell, they cannot pinpoint what his betrayal was. Do you know? John 18:1-2 reveal evidence what Judas' great big sin was.
1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples.
2 And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
John 18:1–2.
Because of the constant push of multitudes who followed Jesus everywhere He went, Jesus took Himself and His disciples to a place where the people did not know and where they could be alone and get away from the crowds. Judas' big sin was revealing the secret location to the guards by leading them to it where Jesus and the others would "chill." He, in effect, was saying, "Here is the man you seek. Here is the Messiah!" In contrast what did the eleven including Peter do? They rejected knowing Him, even actively denying Jesus or knowing Him to save their own skin. I'd say that is worse than what Judas did. One pointed Jesus out in the dark night, the other(s) denied even knowing Jesus. I can also point out Scripture that goes directly to Judas and one of those things is in every instance where Judas is named or mentioned the Holy Spirit - who Authored the letters/epistles - identifies Judas as "one of the twelve", as opposed to Matthias who is identified as "being with the eleven." One addresses inclusion, the other, exclusion. And in Acts 1:15-26 where the choosing of Matthias is recorded there are problems here, too. Why did the Spirit use two Greek words that the KJV translators translate as "numbered."? And what "apostleship" is being referred here? Was it Judas as "treasurer" (he held the bag), or was Peter that ignorant to think men can appoint apostles to their call in the body of Christ, something Saul clearly says in First Corinthians 12 that is under the direct purview and choice of a Sovereign God?
Yes, this might be about the "faith of Jesus Christ vs. the faith of man", but I count Judas a true apostle called of God. And when I see a brother unjustly run through an unjust wringer, I speak up for them. Then in Matthew Jesus promises twelve thrones to the twelve apostles who will judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Eleven thrones in heaven and one in hell? Is that what Jesus said? Then the names of the twelve apostles of the lamb inscribed in the foundation of the wall of New Jerusalem. "Of the lamb" identifies the timeframe of who these apostles are. This refers to the twelve apostles when Jesus came the first time as "lamb of God", and not when He will come the second time as Conquering King.
Yes, I have studied the question of Judas Iscariot. And with the Word rightly divided (interpreted and understood) I bring evidence to the table that is factual, not emotional. And as Christians we are to deal with fact, not preconceived suppositions and false doctrine unsupported by Scripture. And for some of the reasons above I provide we can see - if we are honest with Scripture - that Judas Iscariot is with Jesus right now and will return with Him in the great cloud of witnesses. I defend brethren, I don't knock them down, and Christians are known notoriously for being a religious group that kill their wounded.
Are you among that crowd?
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Actually, Jeremiah doesn't mention Gentiles. He mentions the House of Israel and the House of Judah but not the house or tiki-hut of Gentiles.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
You are adding to the Bible.
Gentiles are not included in the New Covenant.
And when Jesus ritually included the twelve Jewish men into the "new testament" in His blood there were no Gentiles there representing the uncircumcised, non-covenant, idol worshiping Gentiles.
Only twelve Jewish men with Jesus being the thirteenth Jewish man who partook of the bread and wine.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
You can believe that if you want but "faith" has never been included as a term in any of the three Hebrew covenants under the Law. The Abrahamic Covenant required circumcision and the Mosaic Covenant required obedience, but the New Covenant doesn't mention or include circumcision or obedience according to the text in Jeremiah's prophecy.
You add to the Bible "bogus preconceived theologies" to the Word of God.
Cults do that.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
First, you quote Leviticus and you equate being "scattered among the heathen" as "covenant with the heathen." I don't because although God did scatter His people among the heathen, He never included the heathen in a holy covenant God made with Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13) and his Hebrew seed. Gentiles were already in existence and were the seed of Ham and Japheth. Non-Hebrews cannot be born to two Hebrew parents. And since you cannot use the Old Testament and the terms that record the covenant itself, you cannot prove heathens (Gentiles) as being in covenant with God.
By the time we get to the first century and Jesus, "heathen" came to identify Jews who grew up as Gentiles over the course of 29-35 generations of Jews mixed in with Gentiles and heavily influenced by Greek culture as "Hellenized" Jews. These were assimilated into Gentile/Greek culture and knew nothing of their Hebrew heritage. The only people that are in covenant with God are the Hebrew people. And if a Jew has a Gentile parent somewhere in their ancestry, if they are the seed of Abram, then they are heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:28-29.)
Using the New Covenant writings which are letters written by born-again Jewish men, who wrote those letters which discuss and explain the New Covenant era to other Jews and Jewish Christians are only letters and not the God-sent prophets (like in Israel) who prophesied God's Words to the Hebrew nation of people as basis for Gentile-inclusion into the three Hebrew covenants.
Try using the Scripture where the covenants are recorded as the basis to tell us what God meant when He made covenant with Abram and extended it to his Hebrew seed. Abram wanted an heir, and God gave him one of his own body with a woman of Hebrew descent (Sarah, his half-sister.)
This is why He is called the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and not called the God of Manny, Moe, and Jack!
You speak about cults? That is where you sit. Neither the Abrahamic Covenant nor the Mosaic Covenant were about obtaining eternal life, i.e., salvation. And the details of how God would literally carry out the New Covenant, absent in the OT, was presented in the NT.
@Victoria
Agreed ~yet, if two were in overall agreement, the general rule would stand that age should bring wisdom and truth with it, more so than if age was not present.
Agree as an Amill idealist.
@Victoria
Legally we are saved by the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ alone, not by our works, which faith is indeed a work, one that we can learn to increase in by putting on the new man and not walking after the flesh,
Our whole life as living to please God we do so by teh faith of Christ, after which our new manj was created after.
So plain, how do men not see this blessed truth, is truly not beyond me, and should not be to others, for I know that God must open one's eyes to see and understand this blessed truth.
Victoria, this is not so, even though many in religion have learned to quote these very words, over the years, much like an parrot can learn certain phrases of words, yet has no clue as to what those word mean.
Legally we are saved by the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ alone, not by our works, which faith is indeed a work, one that we can learn to increase in by putting on the new man and not walking after the flesh,
Our whole life as living to please God we do so by teh faith of Christ, after which our new manj was created after.
Galatians 2:20
“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”So plain, how do men not see this blessed truth, is truly not beyond me, and should not be to others, for I know that God must open one's eyes to see and understand this blessed truth.
Acts 3:16
“And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.”@Victoria
I read it and say this: The law of God was given for God's children (as a schoolmaster) to help them see their need of Christ's faith and obedience as the only means of their free justification by God's grace. Now that Christ has come and we have been properly taught by our schoolmaster, we are no longer under the schoolmaster in this sense, because the law served perfectly God's intended purpose to teach us of our need of Christ. The law leaves us without any hope in our own works and basically teaches us to sing this beautiful hymn:
1 Hail, sovereign love, that first began
The scheme to rescue fallen man!
Hail, matchless, free, eternal grace,
That gave my soul a hiding-place!
2 [Against the God who rules the sky
I fought with hand uplifted high;
Despised the mention of his grace,
Too proud to seek a hiding-place.
3 But thus the eternal counsel ran:
“Almighty love, arrest that man!”
I felt the arrows of distress,
And found I had no hiding-place.
4 Indignant Justice stood in view;
To Sinai’s fiery mount I flew;
But Justice cried, with frowning face,
“This mountain is no hiding-place!”
5 Ere long a heavenly voice I heard,
And Mercy’s angel-form appeared;
he led me on, with placid pace,
To Jesus, as my Hiding-place.]
6 Should storms of seven-fold thunder roll,
And shake the globe from pole to pole,
No flaming bolt could daunt my face,
For Jesus is my Hiding-place.
7 On him almighty vengeance fell,
That must have sunk a world to hell;
He bore it for a chosen race,
And thus became their Hiding-place.
8 A few more rolling suns, at most,
Will land me on fair Canaan’s coast,
Where I shall sing the song of grace,
And see my glorious Hiding-place.
Sister, we both read this precious scripture and walk away with a totally different understanding.
I read it and say this: The law of God was given for God's children (as a schoolmaster) to help them see their need of Christ's faith and obedience as the only means of their free justification by God's grace. Now that Christ has come and we have been properly taught by our schoolmaster, we are no longer under the schoolmaster in this sense, because the law served perfectly God's intended purpose to teach us of our need of Christ. The law leaves us without any hope in our own works and basically teaches us to sing this beautiful hymn:
1 Hail, sovereign love, that first began
The scheme to rescue fallen man!
Hail, matchless, free, eternal grace,
That gave my soul a hiding-place!
2 [Against the God who rules the sky
I fought with hand uplifted high;
Despised the mention of his grace,
Too proud to seek a hiding-place.
3 But thus the eternal counsel ran:
“Almighty love, arrest that man!”
I felt the arrows of distress,
And found I had no hiding-place.
4 Indignant Justice stood in view;
To Sinai’s fiery mount I flew;
But Justice cried, with frowning face,
“This mountain is no hiding-place!”
5 Ere long a heavenly voice I heard,
And Mercy’s angel-form appeared;
he led me on, with placid pace,
To Jesus, as my Hiding-place.]
6 Should storms of seven-fold thunder roll,
And shake the globe from pole to pole,
No flaming bolt could daunt my face,
For Jesus is my Hiding-place.
7 On him almighty vengeance fell,
That must have sunk a world to hell;
He bore it for a chosen race,
And thus became their Hiding-place.
8 A few more rolling suns, at most,
Will land me on fair Canaan’s coast,
Where I shall sing the song of grace,
And see my glorious Hiding-place.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
They most certainly were about eternal life.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Genesis 17:7.
and:
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Genesis 17:13.
and to Isaac:
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. Genesis 17:19.
Later, God would build upon this "everlasting covenant" when speaking to Moses:
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Exodus 3:6.
and Jesus would bring it home in establishing that it was He (Jesus) who made covenant with Abram the Hebrew called the Abrahamic Covenant, and that it was He (Jesus) who explained to Moses that He (Jesus) was the I AM.
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22:32.
Jesus argued that because God used the present tense ("I am"), Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob must still be alive in some form; otherwise, God would have said "I was their God.
Abraham knew the God He served and worshiped meant everlasting which was the same reasoning Abraham made when God made promise that Isaac would be his heir confirmed in the words:
1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Genesis 22:1–2.
4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ***; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. Genesis 22:3–5.
Translation: God keeps His Promises. If Abe was to offer Isaac as a burnt offering He would raise him from the dead, smoldering ruin so that Isaac does become his heir.
Rub two brain cells together. It'll come to you.
All of that is based on a faulty English translation of the Hebrew word ‘olam.
Though this word sometimes carries the connotation of “eternal,” it often means no more than “age-lasting” or “until the end of the age,” namely, the OT age. This is especially true of OT statements about things related to Israel. God’s provisions for the life and religion of Israel were not meant to endure forever.
Here is a list of some other things about Israel that are described with the same Hebrew word (‘olam) and which obviously were intended to become obsolete when the Old Covenant ended: circumcision as a covenant sign, Genesis 17:13; the Passover feast, Exodus 12:24 (see 12:14,17); Sabbath observance, Exodus 31:16-17; the Day of Atonement, Lev 16:29,31; the Aaronic priesthood, Exodus 40:15; the priests’ clothing, Exodus 28:43; the priests’ portion of the sacrifices, Exodus 29:28 (see Lev 6:18); the priests’ washings, Exodus 30:21; the bread of the Presence, Leviticus 24:8; the candlestick, Exodus 27:21; Solomon’s temple, 1 Kings 8:13 (see 9:3); and the Levites as custodians of the ark of the covenant, 1 Chronicles 15:2 (see 23:13). From this list it should be clear that the word ‘olam does not necessarily mean “everlasting.” Regarding things having to do with Israel, it means only “as long as the Old Covenant age lasts.”
jeremiah1five
Active Member
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