The Elect

The Rogue Tomato said:
I was never an Arminian, but I used to believe strongly that we choose Christ of our own free will. I got the idea from C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. The idea was that God wants us to love him of our own free will. But the more I read the Bible, the more I saw scripture that says this is impossible, and it's only through being born from above that we are able to love God -- call that the free will of the born again, if you wish, but it's outside our natural power to love God.
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So why aren't basement bottom Calvinists who reject free will good enough.

Why do they have to memorize and recite all of James White's works perfectly to be really Calvinists.
 
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The Rogue Tomato said:
I was never an Arminian, but I used to believe strongly that we choose Christ of our own free will. I got the idea from C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. The idea was that God wants us to love him of our own free will. But the more I read the Bible, the more I saw scripture that says this is impossible, and it's only through being born from above that we are able to love God -- call that the free will of the born again, if you wish, but it's outside our natural power to love God.
Click to expand...
you are conflating free will /choice with love. Those are two distinct things.
 
makesends said:
But you're not answering.

A. You say, to my question,
makesends said: Are you denying, then, that believers are not individually chosen by God? The members of the Bride of Christ are random?,
civic said: "Correct in Romans 9-11 chosen/elect does not equate to being saved since the Jews are Gods chosen/elect in Romans 9-11. They are reprobate, given a spirit of stupor by God. Because of that those who are not His people will become His people ( Gentiles )."

Neverminding that I don't see how that makes sense —I mean, of course being chosen does not equate to being saved, (at least, not yet); but that Israel is God's "chosen people" doesn't mean that they were chosen for the same purpose as those we now call elect, that were chosen from the foundation of the world to be the members of the Bride, the Body of Christ, God's Dwelling Place— but even if I grant the point, how does that explain how the members of the Bride are random? To say it is "a different argument" is to admit that your post is off point.

B. How would God choose the elect [members] from the foundation of the world, without it being specific?
C. Philosophically speaking —how is it possible for God to create generally, without also creating specifically? You again appeal to mere chance, and there is no such thing.

civic said:
You need to prove that elect/chosen in the NT has a different meaning in the NT. That onus is one you if you are saying they are different.
civic said:
Ok I’m interested in reading it brother 👍🏼
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Occurs to me that I may not have made plain: Even if it cannot be shown that 'election' of Israel in the OT is a different use of the word than 'election' of believers in the NT, the point is moot. That is: No, I don't have to prove it. It is unnecessary to the point, that the members of the Bride are not random.

Let me put it another way. Even if your point in argument A, above, is granted, (that the election of Israel is the same as the Election of the redeemed), you still have to show how that is relevant to the question of God being/ not being random in his selection, and you still have to do away with B and C.
 
makesends said:
makesends said:
But you're not answering.

A. You say, to my question,
makesends said: Are you denying, then, that believers are not individually chosen by God? The members of the Bride of Christ are random?,
civic said: "Correct in Romans 9-11 chosen/elect does not equate to being saved since the Jews are Gods chosen/elect in Romans 9-11. They are reprobate, given a spirit of stupor by God. Because of that those who are not His people will become His people ( Gentiles )."

Neverminding that I don't see how that makes sense —I mean, of course being chosen does not equate to being saved, (at least, not yet); but that Israel is God's "chosen people" doesn't mean that they were chosen for the same purpose as those we now call elect, that were chosen from the foundation of the world to be the members of the Bride, the Body of Christ, God's Dwelling Place— but even if I grant the point, how does that explain how the members of the Bride are random? To say it is "a different argument" is to admit that your post is off point.

B. How would God choose the elect [members] from the foundation of the world, without it being specific?
C. Philosophically speaking —how is it possible for God to create generally, without also creating specifically? You again appeal to mere chance, and there is no such thing.

civic said:
You need to prove that elect/chosen in the NT has a different meaning in the NT. That onus is one you if you are saying they are different.

Occurs to me that I may not have made plain: Even if it cannot be shown that 'election' of Israel in the OT is a different use of the word than 'election' of believers in the NT, the point is moot. That is: No, I don't have to prove it. It is unnecessary to the point, that the members of the Bride are not random.

Let me put it another way. Even if your point in argument A, above, is granted, (that the election of Israel is the same as the Election of the redeemed), you still have to show how that is relevant to the question of God being/ not being random in his selection, and you still have to do away with B and C.
Click to expand...

I must be missing something. I don't understand the point of contention. Election is election, that is, it is God choosing. The context tells you what the choice is about, but either way it's still God doing the choosing. I'm afraid I'd have to take some LSD to see how that even implies a random choice. Unfortunately, I have no access to LSD or even weed (it's illegal here), so I guess I'll never make that connection.
 
dizerner said:
But if a person argues for Christianity for 20 years knowing everything about it, then changes their mind?

They were never a Christian.
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So you are the judge of another?

Lot fathered his children with his own daughters. Lot abandoned Abraham. Noah cursed his own children.

Grace is Grace. You want justice. You just don't want it for yourself. All men are the same way in this. Empathy is not common in any man's theology.
 
praise_yeshua said:
So you are the judge of another?

Lot fathered his children with his own daughters. Lot abandoned Abraham. Noah cursed his own children.

Grace is Grace. You want justice. You just don't want it for yourself. All men are the same way in this. Empathy is not common in any man's theology.
Click to expand...

What are you even talking about.

That has nothing to do with what I said.

Do you just look for any excuse to judge my motives and slander?

That's not godly.
 
dizerner said:
What are you even talking about.

That has nothing to do with what I said.

Do you just look for any excuse to judge my motives and slander?

That's not godly.
Click to expand...

Claiming I slandered you when I didn't .......equals what exactly?

Did you say that a "Christian" that changes his mind was never a Christian?
 
praise_yeshua said:
Claiming I slandered you when I didn't .......equals what exactly?
Click to expand...

Nothing here, that's for sure.

So why bring it up?

praise_yeshua said:
Did you say that a "Christian" that changes his mind was never a Christian?
Click to expand...

I judged no one.

I didn't even answer the question.

Nor did anything I say have anything to do with not wanting justice for myself.

You are being incoherent here.

I will leave you to you and your God.
 

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