The Elect
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
Wilber
Active member
I know huh? I got a truck load.
Diserner
Well-known member
Ground that drinks in the rain.
And afterwords brings forth thorns.
Gets the GOD HISSY FIT!!!!!
Wilber
Active member
What does that tell you? If we'd only obeyed God in the garden we would have all those weeds and thorns cleaned up. Do you think we'll have work to do in heaven my jobs? Taking care of animals or polishing the streets of gold?
Diserner
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
The book of Hebrews
1.2 – “in these last days” – This puts the audience in the dispensational context of the prophetic last days spoken about in Acts 2:17.
1:2 – “spoken unto us by his Son” – Jesus came to Israel as a minister of the circumcision promises, and not to Gentiles with the mystery (Matt 15:24; John 1:10-11).
1:4 – “better than the angels” – That the author is comparing angels to Christ indicates a Hebrew audience in a dispensation where angels had a role (John 1:51; John 5:4; John 20:12). Paul instructs the church to avoid angels with a message today (Gal 1:8).
1:14 – “shall be heirs of salvation” – The future promise of salvation describes Israel to whom alone God made a promise and covenant of salvation.
2:3 – “how shall we escape” – Certain punishment would come if they let slip the things they have heard about Christ. The church today is at peace with God, and Christ remains faithful even if we do not (2 Tim 2:13).
2:3 – “which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord” – The Lord’s earthly ministry was to Israel in accordance with the message of salvation proclaimed by the prophets through the law, covenants, and kingdom.
2:3 – “unto us by them that heard him” – This speaks to those who heard the Lord in his earthly ministry. This excludes anyone in the church the Body of Christ which did not begin at Pentecost.
2:4 – “with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles” – See previous comment referring to the Pentecostal believers, not the church today.
2:5 – “world to come, whereof we speak” – The content of the book concerns the prophesied world to come to earth which was promised to Israel not angels.
2:9 – “but we see Jesus” – Peter testifies to seeing Jesus crowned with glory and honour also in 2 Pet 1:16-18 referring to the transfiguration in Matthew 17.
2:10 – “many sons” – Reminds us of Christ declaring that he would give his life a ‘ransom for many”, in reference to the little flock. Whereas in 1 Tim 2:6, according to the mystery, he gave his life a “ransom for all.”
2:11 – “both he that sanctieth and they who are sanctied” – The only sanctified people that existed when Christ was in the flesh was the nation Israel
2:11-12 – “call them brethren” – Those who do the will of God according to his earthly prophetic ministry he called brethren (Matt 12:50; John 20:17; Ps 22:22).
2:13 – “the children which God hath given me” – This is a reference to Isaiah speaking about those who were for signs to Israel, and remotely to John 17:6 referring to the disciples during his earthly ministry.
2:16 – “seed of Abraham” – Which would have had import to those concerned with the seedline.
2:17 – “to be made like unto his brethren” – Who were of the seed of Abraham (Heb 2:16).
3:1 – “High Priest of our profession” – Israel had priests. A high priest implies lower priests. There is no priest in the Body of Christ according to the mystery.
3:6 – “as a son over his own house” – Moses built a house; but the house belonged to Jesus as the son. This connects Jesus’ ministry in Hebrews to that of Israel.
3:6 – “whose house are we” – The author and audience are included in the house that Peter describes in 1 Pet 2:5, which is Israel (1 Pet 2:9).
3:7 – “if we hold fast the confidence… unto the end” – There are many conditional statements in Hebrews that speak about this sort of endurance required of Israel, because their covenant had not yet been fulfilled (Heb 3:11; 3:12; 3:13; 3:14; 3:19). Members of the church today are presently complete in Christ, and are not waiting for grace or salvation to come in the end, since they have it now.
3:8 – “as in the provocation, in the day of temptation” – The audience is the same people that went through the provocation and temptation in the wilderness. The audience is covenant Israel being tried in a wilderness before they enter the promised kingdom.
3:12 – “in departing from the living God” – The audience can choose to depart from God.
3:14 – “partakers… if we hold the beginning of our confidence” – Their partaking of Christ is conditioned on their holding fast.
4:1 – “a promise being left us” – The audience are not strangers from the covenants of promise (Eph 2:12).
4:1 – “should seem to come short of it” – The audience can after having the promise, come short of receiving it. Today, members of the church do not receive any promise until they are first sealed and saved (Eph 1:13).
4:2 – “unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them” – The gospel this audience had heard was the same as what was told to Israel in the wilderness. Namely, the good news of the promised land being nigh: the gospel of the kingdom.
4:11 – “let us labour … to enter into that rest” – The audience of Hebrews is required to labour to the end, or lose their place in the promised kingdom rest.
And this after only four chapters of verse by verse study!
The History of Hebrews
Jesus commissioned the twelve apostles to begin their kingdom ministry in Jerusalem (Luke 24:47). From there they would minister to Judaea, then Samaria, and finally the Gentiles (Acts 1:8). Their message of the King and the kingdom never got past Jerusalem. The rulers of Israel rejected Christ and his followers by murdering Spirit-filled Stephen (Acts 7:59).
Consequently, the believing remnant in Jerusalem was scattered (Acts 8:1), and it became evident that the kingdom they were proclaiming had not yet come. Since Jerusalem rejected and separated them from their holy city, temple, and priests, the Spirit filled remnant of Israel needed encouragement that their promises were still sure.
The book of Hebrews provides that encouragement by explaining the better things by faith for the remnant. Jesus was Christ according to prophecy and was the assurance of their promises being fulfilled if they endured unto the end.
Our relationship to the doctrinal content in Hebrews as members of the mystery Body of Christ is that of spectator not participant. This is a right division that will cure many confusions that are caused by the covenant content of the book.
Related Posts:
- Losing Salvation in Hebrews
- Peter’s Audience
- So Great Salvation
- Know the Audience
- Hebrews Audio Commentary Finished!
- Willful Sin and Judgment of Hebrews 10:26
The Audience of Hebrews
graceambassadors.com
Wilber
Active member
That's probably for the really good Christians the get crowns and everything. I'm thinking about the judgment seat of Christ also known as the bema judgment and the rewards believers will receive in heaven.
And just as it is appointed for [all] men once to die, and after that the [certain] judgment,
Heb 9:27
I'm sure there are people on this forum that have a lot of opinions about this But it seems to me that will be judged on what we've done after we've accepted Christ as our Lord and savior. Otherwise we wouldn't be in heaven period right?
Our life one day be reviewed and rewarded by the Lord, and that our life in eternity will be dramatically affected by the result of that evaluation—that what we do now has an irreversible effect on our eternity. There are permanent repercussions for what you do, think, and say.
I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, Matthew 12:36
Sounds like I can forget about it cleaning the streets of gold. I'll be lucky if they let me wash the pots and pans after The wedding Feast of the Lamb.
This caught my eye.
We could call this the Reward Principle or the Law of Rewards.
To state it succinctly: The life you live today will determine your life in eternity.
We discussed a lot of things on this forum like how does one become saved, Can you lose your salvation and a host of other topics.
What I haven't heard discussed here is what will be doing in heaven. You mentioned rest and that sounds good but maybe instead of rest it's just the beginning. So it's important to think of how we live our lives now.
How we do your job, love our spouse, raise our children, serve those in need, share our financial resources, love others, and overcome temptation, those things will influence our existence in Eternity.
No Calvinism does not work.
Er that would be false
Commercial theories of the atonement would be Anselm's satisfaction theory and Penal substitutionary atonement
Diserner
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
Suffered from man, not God, punished by man, not God.
civic
Well-known member
makesends
Well-known member
You are applying an equal sign wherever it suits, here, seems to me. "Chosen" for what? The fact that the Elect are particularly chosen for good works, etc, doesn't mean that others aren't chosen, such as Judas, for other purposes. You probably know several others in Scripture whom God used in similar fashion. Isaiah 10:5-19 gives one example. Just because God chose someone, is not the same as what has been termed, "election", which is about those God chose to whom to show mercy, who are the true Church.also if you are going to claim the "elect " are those disciples who were drawn by the Father and come and follow Him and are saved then you have another giant pickle.'
So much foe the elect being drawn/kept.
John 6:66
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Jesus drives it home here with the elect/chosen
John 6:70
Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
so much for being chose/elect and saved.
hope this helps !!!
context is King once again. @TomL
I insist on a difference between 'appealed to' and 'salvifically drawn'. It is not as though some don't feel a heart tug or even an overwhelming event, walking to the altar in tears and desperation, and feeling resolution afterwards, who are finally NOT saved. There are many who fool themselves. I might even be one.
Context is king. But it is not ruling how you apply it.
makesends
Well-known member
Ok. Believers selected from the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless. Problem?
makesends
Well-known member
What Scripture do I deny?
Diserner
Well-known member
amen
civic
Well-known member
Spot on
makesends
Well-known member
Boy oh boy oh boy. Ok, go with your worldview. Then, when whatever construction you hold to is all over and done with, God caused it. If you say man has absolutely free will, God still caused it, in every particularity. As a matter of fact, man does not have whatever he has, and man is not whatever he is, if God did not establish it. Simple.
Meanwhile, the "mind of flesh", per Romans 8 is at enmity with God and will not submit to God's law and is unable to please God. Reason all you want around it, (and there are more very similar passages), that is what it says. Apart from God we are rotten to the core. Go with your Prevenient Grace or whatever other construction you wish for, God has to change us 'before' (causally before) we can repent and obey.
God makes the reprobate an offer they literally will not to accept. Even those who think they understand the offer and "accept", have not done so, (just as some "ask and do not receive, because they ask amiss, that they may consume it on their lusts"), if God has not regenerated their mind. The fact that God has ordained this to be so does not excuse anyone. THEY decide. THEY choose according to what they prefer.
As for "Irresistible Grace", God did not consult you concerning your first birth. Who are you to say he should consult you concerning your re-birth? Who are you, but what God says you are?
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
FWIW, I recently watched a video by a woman scientist (based on her videos I assume she's an atheist). She made almost the same argument against free will. According to her, the first cause is the big bang, and everything that happens after that is set in stone. Our thoughts, our will all boil down to the physical nature of what we have become based on the big bang.
However, I do agree that God is first cause, and although we have free will (influenced by inclination), God chooses us. We don't choose Him unless He chooses us first.
A hearty Amen to that.
A while back, I started a thread asking what makes the difference between you (the reader) and someone who rejected Christ of their own free will. Were you smarter? Wiser? Better informed? More inclined to submit? Etc.? Nobody could answer that question with any substance, but the point was to follow up with the question, WHO made you smarter, wiser, etc.?
I know that's not how salvation works, but I wanted to get the point across that the difference is entirely determined by God.
