The death of Jesus was a sacrifice

[brightfame52]

Jesus never said that to judas but the pharisees. Its astounding how desperate you are to TWIST Jesus words He did not say into those you wish He said.

Yes He indicated judas was an unbeliever, Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Also, judas wasnt sent into the world to preach the Gospel at the Great Commission Jn 17:18

As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Matt 28:16-20

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[civic]

Yes He indicated judas was an unbeliever, Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Also, judas wasnt sent into the world to preach the Gospel at the Great Commission Jn 17:18

As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Matt 28:16-20

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

nice dodge as this was not the passage you quoted earlier from John 10 this is just another failed bait n switch from you jumping all over the bible.. thanks since I exposed you were once again incorrect.

 

[brightfame52]

nice dodge as this was not the passage you quoted earlier. thanks since I exposed you were once again incorrect.

Yes He indicated judas was an unbeliever, Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Also, judas wasnt sent into the world to preach the Gospel at the Great Commission Jn 17:18

As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Matt 28:16-20

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[civic]

Yes He indicated judas was an unbeliever, Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Also, judas wasnt sent into the world to preach the Gospel at the Great Commission Jn 17:18

As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Matt 28:16-20

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

sorry we were discussing your John 10 passage.

next fallacy

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

And that says nothing at all about unbelievers being his sheep

Hello, TomL

You have made a very good list of the characteristics that define a sheep according to Scripture.
You may have missed one, though: The Scriptural definition of "sheep" also encompasses people gone astray.

The reason is simple: One thing is that the sheep does not recognize or accept the Shepherd and therefore does not follow his voice.
Another different thing, though, is that the Shepherd loses interest or stops loving his sheep.

The sinner may not identify Jesus as The Shepherd and therefore, does not follow Him, living in sin.
But The Shepherd is willing to go after the sinner, even if it were only one and the loss would look comparatively insignificant.


Now all the tax collectors and sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. But the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.”
So He told them this parable, saying, “What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he places it on his shoulders, rejoicing. Then when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ Likewise, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous men who need no repentance. (Luke 15:1-7)

Dear TomL and @brightfame52

When in John 10:26 Jesus tells some Jews: "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep"... did He mean that God didn't love them? Or did he mean they didn't love God?

 

[brightfame52]

sorry we were discussing your John 10 passage.

next fallacy

Yes He indicated judas was an unbeliever, Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There is no mention of sheep in John 17:20 and certainly not unbelieving sheep

In John 17:20, for what kind of individuals is Jesus praying for?

 

[brightfame52]

Hello, TomL

You have made a very good list of the characteristics that define a sheep according to Scripture.
You may have missed one, though: The Scriptural definition of "sheep" also encompasses people gone astray.

The reason is simple: One thing is that the sheep does not recognize or accept the Shepherd and therefore does not follow his voice.
Another different thing, though, is that the Shepherd loses interest or stops loving his sheep.

The sinner may not identify Jesus as The Shepherd and therefore, does not follow Him, living in sin.
But The Shepherd is willing to go after the sinner, even if it were only one and the loss would look comparatively insignificant.


Now all the tax collectors and sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. But the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.”
So He told them this parable, saying, “What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he places it on his shoulders, rejoicing. Then when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ Likewise, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous men who need no repentance. (Luke 15:1-7)

Dear TomL and @brightfame52

When in John 10:26 Jesus tells some Jews: "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep"... did He mean that God didn't love them? Or did he mean they didn't love God?

Jesus People/Sheep are His before He saves them from their sins Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[brightfame52]

In John 17:20, for what kind of individuals is Jesus praying for?

His Sheep, them the Father has given Him Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Jn 10:27-29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Jesus People/Sheep are His before He saves them from their sins Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

That's a great truth, my brother. God bless you.

 

[TomL]

In John 17:20, for what kind of individuals is Jesus praying for?

Those who would believe afterwards based on the words of the apostles but nothing states these were his sheep while in unbelief. That is eisegesis

 

[TomL]

Hello, TomL

You have made a very good list of the characteristics that define a sheep according to Scripture.
You may have missed one, though: The Scriptural definition of "sheep" also encompasses people gone astray.

The reason is simple: One thing is that the sheep does not recognize or accept the Shepherd and therefore does not follow his voice.
Another different thing, though, is that the Shepherd loses interest or stops loving his sheep.

The sinner may not identify Jesus as The Shepherd and therefore, does not follow Him, living in sin.
But The Shepherd is willing to go after the sinner, even if it were only one and the loss would look comparatively insignificant.


Now all the tax collectors and sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. But the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.”
So He told them this parable, saying, “What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he places it on his shoulders, rejoicing. Then when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ Likewise, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous men who need no repentance. (Luke 15:1-7)

Dear TomL and @brightfame52

When in John 10:26 Jesus tells some Jews: "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep"... did He mean that God didn't love them? Or did he mean they didn't love God?

Nowhere are men who have never followed Christ stated to be his sheep

None of those verse support your contention

 

[civic]

Nowhere are men who have never followed Christ stated to be his sheep

None of those verse support your contention

ditto

@Pancho Frijoles

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Nowhere are men who have never followed Christ stated to be his sheep

None of those verse support your contention

My contention, TomL and @civic, is that people gone astray are also Chirst’s sheep.
The verses I have quoted support that contention.

I have met no man or woman in my life who has never been part of Chirst sheep.
All of them have been, at least once, citizens of his Kingdom.
All of them have been, at least once, in the House of the Father.
All of them have been, at least once, the living image of God.

I suppose that explains why God continues to love all of us.

 

[TomL]

My contention, TomL and @civic, is that people gone astray are also Chirst’s sheep.
The verses I have quoted support that contention.

I have met no man or woman in my life who has never been part of Chirst sheep.
All of them have been, at least once, citizens of his Kingdom.
All of them have been, at least once, in the House of the Father.
All of them have been, at least once, the living image of God.

I suppose that explains why God continues to love all of us.

Astray from what?

If never affiliated with Christ/God how could it be stated they went astray from him

I have seen no verses which support your contention

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Astray from what?

If never affiliated with Christ/God how could it be stated they went astray from him

I have seen no verses which support your contention

Thanks for the question.
When we are children, we all belong to the Kingdom of God. The Inuit little boy, the Chinese little girl, everyone.
Then, as we grow up, we start taking bad decisions, and just as the Prodigal Son, we leave our Father's home. We leave paradise.
However, God does not stop loving us, considering us his children, and caring for us.

That's why I say that, in God's eyes, we are all his sheep, his children, his beloved ones.
When Jesus talks about people not being their sheep, He uses the perspective of the men who choose not to pay heed to his voice.

In other words, if Anthony doesn't follow the Shepherd, Anthony is not his sheep... but this is from Anthony's side. It is not from God's side.

 

[TomL]

Thanks for the question.
When we are children, we all belong to the Kingdom of God. The Inuit little boy, the Chinese little girl, everyone.
Then, as we grow up, we start taking bad decisions, and just as the Prodigal Son, we leave our Father's home. We leave paradise.
However, God does not stop loving us, considering us his children, and caring for us.

That's why I say that, in God's eyes, we are all his sheep, his children, his beloved ones.
When Jesus talks about people not being their sheep, He uses the perspective of the men who choose not to pay heed to his voice.

In other words, if Anthony doesn't follow the Shepherd, Anthony is not his sheep... but this is from Anthony's side. It is not from God's side.

Can you support that with scripture?