The death of Jesus was a sacrifice

[brightfame52]

Jesus never said that to judas but the pharisees. Its astounding how desperate you are to TWIST Jesus words He did not say into those you wish He said.

Yes He indicated judas was an unbeliever, Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Also, judas wasnt sent into the world to preach the Gospel at the Great Commission Jn 17:18

As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Matt 28:16-20

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[civic]

Yes He indicated judas was an unbeliever, Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Also, judas wasnt sent into the world to preach the Gospel at the Great Commission Jn 17:18

As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Matt 28:16-20

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

nice dodge as this was not the passage you quoted earlier from John 10 this is just another failed bait n switch from you jumping all over the bible.. thanks since I exposed you were once again incorrect.

 

[brightfame52]

nice dodge as this was not the passage you quoted earlier. thanks since I exposed you were once again incorrect.

Yes He indicated judas was an unbeliever, Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Also, judas wasnt sent into the world to preach the Gospel at the Great Commission Jn 17:18

As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Matt 28:16-20

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[civic]

Yes He indicated judas was an unbeliever, Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Also, judas wasnt sent into the world to preach the Gospel at the Great Commission Jn 17:18

As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Matt 28:16-20

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

sorry we were discussing your John 10 passage.

next fallacy

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

And that says nothing at all about unbelievers being his sheep

Hello, TomL

You have made a very good list of the characteristics that define a sheep according to Scripture.
You may have missed one, though: The Scriptural definition of "sheep" also encompasses people gone astray.

The reason is simple: One thing is that the sheep does not recognize or accept the Shepherd and therefore does not follow his voice.
Another different thing, though, is that the Shepherd loses interest or stops loving his sheep.

The sinner may not identify Jesus as The Shepherd and therefore, does not follow Him, living in sin.
But The Shepherd is willing to go after the sinner, even if it were only one and the loss would look comparatively insignificant.


Now all the tax collectors and sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. But the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.”
So He told them this parable, saying, “What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he places it on his shoulders, rejoicing. Then when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ Likewise, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous men who need no repentance. (Luke 15:1-7)

Dear TomL and @brightfame52

When in John 10:26 Jesus tells some Jews: "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep"... did He mean that God didn't love them? Or did he mean they didn't love God?

 

[brightfame52]

sorry we were discussing your John 10 passage.

next fallacy

Yes He indicated judas was an unbeliever, Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There is no mention of sheep in John 17:20 and certainly not unbelieving sheep

In John 17:20, for what kind of individuals is Jesus praying for?

 

[brightfame52]

Hello, TomL

You have made a very good list of the characteristics that define a sheep according to Scripture.
You may have missed one, though: The Scriptural definition of "sheep" also encompasses people gone astray.

The reason is simple: One thing is that the sheep does not recognize or accept the Shepherd and therefore does not follow his voice.
Another different thing, though, is that the Shepherd loses interest or stops loving his sheep.

The sinner may not identify Jesus as The Shepherd and therefore, does not follow Him, living in sin.
But The Shepherd is willing to go after the sinner, even if it were only one and the loss would look comparatively insignificant.


Now all the tax collectors and sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. But the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.”
So He told them this parable, saying, “What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he places it on his shoulders, rejoicing. Then when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ Likewise, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous men who need no repentance. (Luke 15:1-7)

Dear TomL and @brightfame52

When in John 10:26 Jesus tells some Jews: "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep"... did He mean that God didn't love them? Or did he mean they didn't love God?

Jesus People/Sheep are His before He saves them from their sins Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[brightfame52]

In John 17:20, for what kind of individuals is Jesus praying for?

His Sheep, them the Father has given Him Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Jn 10:27-29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Jesus People/Sheep are His before He saves them from their sins Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

That's a great truth, my brother. God bless you.

 

[TomL]

In John 17:20, for what kind of individuals is Jesus praying for?

Those who would believe afterwards based on the words of the apostles but nothing states these were his sheep while in unbelief. That is eisegesis

 

[TomL]

Hello, TomL

You have made a very good list of the characteristics that define a sheep according to Scripture.
You may have missed one, though: The Scriptural definition of "sheep" also encompasses people gone astray.

The reason is simple: One thing is that the sheep does not recognize or accept the Shepherd and therefore does not follow his voice.
Another different thing, though, is that the Shepherd loses interest or stops loving his sheep.

The sinner may not identify Jesus as The Shepherd and therefore, does not follow Him, living in sin.
But The Shepherd is willing to go after the sinner, even if it were only one and the loss would look comparatively insignificant.


Now all the tax collectors and sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. But the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.”
So He told them this parable, saying, “What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he places it on his shoulders, rejoicing. Then when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ Likewise, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous men who need no repentance. (Luke 15:1-7)

Dear TomL and @brightfame52

When in John 10:26 Jesus tells some Jews: "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep"... did He mean that God didn't love them? Or did he mean they didn't love God?

Nowhere are men who have never followed Christ stated to be his sheep

None of those verse support your contention

 

[civic]

Nowhere are men who have never followed Christ stated to be his sheep

None of those verse support your contention

ditto

@Pancho Frijoles

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Nowhere are men who have never followed Christ stated to be his sheep

None of those verse support your contention

My contention, TomL and @civic, is that people gone astray are also Chirst’s sheep.
The verses I have quoted support that contention.

I have met no man or woman in my life who has never been part of Chirst sheep.
All of them have been, at least once, citizens of his Kingdom.
All of them have been, at least once, in the House of the Father.
All of them have been, at least once, the living image of God.

I suppose that explains why God continues to love all of us.

 

[TomL]

My contention, TomL and @civic, is that people gone astray are also Chirst’s sheep.
The verses I have quoted support that contention.

I have met no man or woman in my life who has never been part of Chirst sheep.
All of them have been, at least once, citizens of his Kingdom.
All of them have been, at least once, in the House of the Father.
All of them have been, at least once, the living image of God.

I suppose that explains why God continues to love all of us.

Astray from what?

If never affiliated with Christ/God how could it be stated they went astray from him

I have seen no verses which support your contention

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Astray from what?

If never affiliated with Christ/God how could it be stated they went astray from him

I have seen no verses which support your contention

Thanks for the question.
When we are children, we all belong to the Kingdom of God. The Inuit little boy, the Chinese little girl, everyone.
Then, as we grow up, we start taking bad decisions, and just as the Prodigal Son, we leave our Father's home. We leave paradise.
However, God does not stop loving us, considering us his children, and caring for us.

That's why I say that, in God's eyes, we are all his sheep, his children, his beloved ones.
When Jesus talks about people not being their sheep, He uses the perspective of the men who choose not to pay heed to his voice.

In other words, if Anthony doesn't follow the Shepherd, Anthony is not his sheep... but this is from Anthony's side. It is not from God's side.

 

[TomL]

Thanks for the question.
When we are children, we all belong to the Kingdom of God. The Inuit little boy, the Chinese little girl, everyone.
Then, as we grow up, we start taking bad decisions, and just as the Prodigal Son, we leave our Father's home. We leave paradise.
However, God does not stop loving us, considering us his children, and caring for us.

That's why I say that, in God's eyes, we are all his sheep, his children, his beloved ones.
When Jesus talks about people not being their sheep, He uses the perspective of the men who choose not to pay heed to his voice.

In other words, if Anthony doesn't follow the Shepherd, Anthony is not his sheep... but this is from Anthony's side. It is not from God's side.

Can you support that with scripture?

 

[brightfame52]

Still nothing about preaching the gospel only to believers

Romans 10:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

As a word of Salvation the Gospel is sent to the regenerated heart that fears God , Paul says Acts 13:26

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Peter was sent to Cornelius to preach the Gospel so he would believe, and he already feared God Acts 10

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Peter was sent by God to preach the Gospel to this man who feared God Acts 15:7

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

They would spiritually hear and believe.

Now the Gospel as a word of salvation isnt sent to the unregenerate, they cant believe it 1 Cor 2:14

 

[Johann]

Now the Gospel as a word of salvation isnt sent to the unregenerate, they cant believe it 1 Cor 2:14

This is easily refuted since Calvinists never quote context-

John 1:12
Verse Concepts
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

John 3:16
Verse Concepts
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Romans 10:9
Verse Concepts
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

1 John 1:9
Verse Concepts
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 5:8
Verse Concepts
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 3:23
Verse Concepts
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 6:23
Verse Concepts
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Verse Concepts
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

John 3:17
Verse Concepts
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Ephesians 2:8
Verse Concepts
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Romans 3:20
Verse Concepts
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Ephesians 1:7
Verse Concepts
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Acts 16:30
Verse Concepts
and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

John 14:6
Verse Concepts
Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Galatians 5:1
Verse Concepts
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Psalm 119:11
Verse Concepts
Your word I have treasured in my heart,
That I may not sin against You.

Romans 10:13
Verse Concepts
for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Titus 3:5
Verse Concepts
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Galatians 2:16
Verse Concepts
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Acts 2:38
Verse Concepts
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:18
Verse Concepts
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Hebrews 9:22
Verse Concepts
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Isaiah 53:6
Verse Concepts
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

Romans 3:28
Verse Concepts
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the Lord with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.

Romans 3:11
Verse Concepts
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;

Romans 3:22
Verse Concepts
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Galatians 2:20
Verse Concepts
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Acts 4:12
Verse Concepts
And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

John 11:25
Verse Concepts
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

John 5:24
Verse Concepts
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

2 Corinthians 5:21
Verse Concepts
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Romans 2:13
Verse Concepts
for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

1 Peter 2:24
Verse Concepts
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

Ephesians 2:10
Verse Concepts
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

1 Corinthians 15:22
Verse Concepts
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 8:1
Verse Concepts
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:26-27
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Romans 3:24
Verse Concepts
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Philippians 1:6
Verse Concepts
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Exodus 20:1-17
Then God spoke all these words, saying, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. “You shall have no other gods before Me.read more.
Job 7:5
Verse Concepts
“My flesh is clothed with worms and a crust of dirt,
My skin hardens and runs.

Mark 13:13
Verse Concepts
You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

John 8:32
Verse Concepts
and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

2 Corinthians 1:10
Verse Concepts
who delivered us from so great a peril of death, and will deliver us, He on whom we have set our hope. And He will yet deliver us,

Hebrews 2:14-15
Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

Psalm 50:15
Verse Concepts
Call upon Me in the day of trouble;
I shall rescue you, and you will honor Me.”

Revelation 1:8
Verse Concepts
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

1 Chronicles 16:11
Verse Concepts
Seek the Lord and His strength;
Seek His face continually.

John 6:44
Verse Concepts
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.



Jonah 2:9
Verse Concepts
But I will sacrifice to You
With the voice of thanksgiving.
That which I have vowed I will pay.
Salvation is from the Lord.”

Exodus 16:26
Verse Concep

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Accepting-Christ

Thanks

J.

 

[TomL]

As a word of Salvation the Gospel is sent to the regenerated heart that fears God , Paul says Acts 13:26

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Peter was sent to Cornelius to preach the Gospel so he would believe, and he already feared God Acts 10

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Peter was sent by God to preach the Gospel to this man who feared God Acts 15:7

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

They would spiritually hear and believe.

Now the Gospel as a word of salvation isnt sent to the unregenerate, they cant believe it 1 Cor 2:14

Nope it through belief in the word that one is regenerated


The Holy Spirit regenerates a person under the impact of the gospel message. Peter claimed that believers have been born again “through the living and enduring word of God” (1 Pet 1:23 NIV), which is “the word that was preached to you” (1 Pet 1:25 NIV). James stated that God “chose to give us birth through the word of truth” (Jas 1:18 NIV). God speaks through the gospel to summon people to Himself and enables them to respond in faith, thus forming the context in which regeneration occurs (Dunn, Baptism, 37–38).1

1 Kirk R. MacGregor, “Regeneration,” The Lexham Bible Dictionary (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2016).