Afraid not
https://berean-apologetics.communit...ath-of-jesus-was-a-sacrifice.1377/post-103742
The scriptural definition of a sheep will not allow it
The death of Jesus was a sacrifice
- Thread starter Joe
- Start date
https://berean-apologetics.communit...ath-of-jesus-was-a-sacrifice.1377/post-103742
The scriptural definition of a sheep will not allow it
Pancho Frijoles
Active member
If Jesus called "my sheep" those who would still hear his voice in the future, it is because He already considered them his sheep.
Perhaps, what we are missing here is not the analysis of "sheep", but the analysis of what "hear my voice" means.
You might be stuck in this debate because you think that "hearing the voice of Jesus" has only one possible meaning: hearing from a preacher (or reading from a document) that Jesus preexisted, was born from virgin Mary in Bethlehem, made such and such miracles, died on the cross, was resurrected the third day and will come again in glory.
So you may be wondering How Celts living at that moment in Scotland could be regarded by Jesus already as his sheep, if they hadn't heard about the story of Jesus of Nazareth?
However, "hearing the voice of Jesus" can mean something else.
I encourage you to find out.
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brightfame52
Well-known member
Sheep are Jesus Sheep way before they ever hear His Voice. Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have[present tense], which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they[My Sheep] shall[future tense] hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Jesus had Sheep that wouldn't even be born unto 100yrs later when He spoke those words. Were they following Him before then ?
Afraid not
https://berean-apologetics.communit...ath-of-jesus-was-a-sacrifice.1377/post-103742
The scriptural definition of a sheep will not allow it
Um you assume he is speaking to a future group. I encourage you to try to prove it rather than assume it
brightfame52
Well-known member
Sheep are Jesus Sheep way before they ever hear His Voice. Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have[present tense], which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they[My Sheep] shall[future tense] hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Jesus had Sheep that wouldn't even be born unto 100yrs later when He spoke those words. Were they following Him before then ?
Pancho Frijoles
Active member
Hi TomL
Jesus is speaking in present tense about the "other sheep" He has, and in future tense about when they will hear his voice and become one flock
"I have other sheep who are not of this fold. I must also bring them, and they will hear My voice. There will be one flock and one shepherd."
The author of the Gospel of John is writing this about 65 or 70 AD, particularly to non-Jewish audiences.
civic
Well-known member
Nope judas was a sheep, one of His 12 sheep whom He sent out doing miracles , casting out demons , raising the dead , healing all types of sickness and disease when He sent them out in twos. See Matthew 10- sent them out as sheep among wolves
Matthew 10
Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a]drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Next fallacy
brightfame52
Well-known member
@civic
Not one of Christ, you bear false witness, he was chosen to the apostleship for a satanic purpose to be a devil and traitor, Jesus indicated he wasn't even a believer which all His Sheep are or will be Jn 6:64-65
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Now Jesus said of them which believe not this Jn 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Not one of Christ, you bear false witness, he was chosen to the apostleship for a satanic purpose to be a devil and traitor, Jesus indicated he wasn't even a believer which all His Sheep are or will be Jn 6:64-65
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Now Jesus said of them which believe not this Jn 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Pancho Frijoles
Active member
Dear @civic and @brightfame52
Judas was among those that the Father gave to Jesus. Please read below how Jesus refers to Judas in his prayer (John 17:11,12)
Judas is always mentioned as one of them. Jesus was the shepherd for all of them: He says "I kept them in Your name".
When Jesus explains why one of them was lost, He provides the reason: "that the Scripture might be fulfilled".
So, the acts of Judas were within the sovereign plan of God. Jesus Himself had urged him "What you have to do, do it quickly" (John 13:26,27)
You may say that the Bible says that the devil get into him when Jesus urged him to proceed. Let's remember than Satan is a role assigned to someone who acts in opposition to God, as an obstacle, an interference. It is a role, just being an advocate is a role. Peter was playing the role of Satan inappropriately, and that's why Jesus told Peter: "Get behind Me, Satan!"
I believe that every apostle played a role, including Judas, and that Jesus was the Shepherd of all apostles, including Judas. God's purpose cannot be frustrated. Some day we will meet Judas in paradise and we will be puzzled, because we have always taught that he was the worst of sinners.
But Jesus was always interested in the worst of sinners.
What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
Judas was among those that the Father gave to Jesus. Please read below how Jesus refers to Judas in his prayer (John 17:11,12)
Holy Father, through Your name keep those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are one. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. I have kept those whom You have given Me. And none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Judas is always mentioned as one of them. Jesus was the shepherd for all of them: He says "I kept them in Your name".
When Jesus explains why one of them was lost, He provides the reason: "that the Scripture might be fulfilled".
So, the acts of Judas were within the sovereign plan of God. Jesus Himself had urged him "What you have to do, do it quickly" (John 13:26,27)
You may say that the Bible says that the devil get into him when Jesus urged him to proceed. Let's remember than Satan is a role assigned to someone who acts in opposition to God, as an obstacle, an interference. It is a role, just being an advocate is a role. Peter was playing the role of Satan inappropriately, and that's why Jesus told Peter: "Get behind Me, Satan!"
I believe that every apostle played a role, including Judas, and that Jesus was the Shepherd of all apostles, including Judas. God's purpose cannot be frustrated. Some day we will meet Judas in paradise and we will be puzzled, because we have always taught that he was the worst of sinners.
But Jesus was always interested in the worst of sinners.
What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
civic
Well-known member
Sorry I gave the scripture from Matthew 10 proving your doctrine is false. I'll believe Jesus and reject your presuppositions.
And that says nothing at all about unbelievers being his sheep
brightfame52
Well-known member
Judas was never a Sheep/Believer, but the poster keeps asserting that falsehood because judas was chosen to be a apostle, but its ignored as to why he was chosen to be an apostle it was for a nefarious purpose. Scripture makes that plain as the noon day sun
brightfame52
Well-known member
Sorry, you go against Jesus words about judas which identified him as one who believes not, and those are not His Sheep Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
civic
Well-known member
Jesus never said that to judas but the pharisees. Its astounding how desperate you are to TWIST Jesus words He did not say into those you wish He said.
Nope
Afraid not
https://berean-apologetics.communit...ath-of-jesus-was-a-sacrifice.1377/post-103742
The scriptural definition of a sheep will not allow it
brightfame52
Well-known member
Sheep are Jesus Sheep way before they ever hear His Voice. Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have[present tense], which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they[My Sheep] shall[future tense] hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Jesus had Sheep that wouldn't even be born unto 100yrs later when He spoke those words. Were they following Him before then ?
Jesus prayed for Sheep that would believe long after He died, they would believe through the Apostles word Jn 17:20
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Were they following Christ and hearing His voice when they weren't even born yet ?
Nope
Afraid not
https://berean-apologetics.communit...ath-of-jesus-was-a-sacrifice.1377/post-103742
The scriptural definition of a sheep will not allow it
brightfame52
Well-known member
Jesus prayed for Sheep that would believe long after He died, they would believe through the Apostles word Jn 17:20
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Were they following Christ and hearing His voice when they weren't even born yet ?
There is no mention of sheep in John 17:20 and certainly not unbelieving sheep
