The death of Jesus was a sacrifice

[TomL]

I understand it perfectly fine.


On the contrary. As I have already stated MORE THAN ONCE, all one had to do was quote the passage in modern English script with proper paragraphs and your entire point is exploded into dust. Not that it held water in any case because you would have us all believe that verse 24 contradicts verse 1 within a single context which crumbles your point anyway. If Jesus' point was that God hadn't forsaken Him then He sure picked a funny verse of scripture to quote!

Again

Paragraph breaks are not a part of the inspired text

Read the whole Psalm and you will see the relation

If you don't you might mistakenly believe God forsakes those who trust in him

which is not what the psalmist wished to show

and for the record sometimes even whole chapters are related

 

[TomL]

The entire thread is right here, Tom!


I know perfectly well how to interpret old testament passages. The difference is that I'm not trying to protect a doctrine and am happy to let Jesus mean what He actually said and so don't need to go looking for reasons to think He meant the opposite of what came out of His mouth.


I know perfectly well what verse 24 is saying and it does NOT help you because Jesus didn't quote verse 24, He quoted verse 1!


No, it's just the twisted, "Jesus meant the opposite of what He said", version that you need to preserve your doctrine.


I give people the respect that they've earned as well as the derision. I'm happy to dialogue with honest people who substantively respond to the points that I actually make instead of intentionally pretending like I've said something completely different and then acting all pious when I get angry about it. Act differently and you'll be treated differently.

No actually you assume motivation and that your point was clear when it was not

In any case, you still fail to show you interpret the psalm correctly

verse 24 is very relevant to the psalmist notion that God does not abandon those who trust in him

We see it here

Psalm 22:4–5 (NIV) — 4 In you our ancestors put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them. 5 To you they cried out and were saved; in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

and eventually here for the psalmist

Psalm 22:8–21 (NIV) — 8 “He trusts in the LORD,” they say, “let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.” 9 Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast. 10 From birth I was cast on you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God. 11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help. 12 Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me. 13 Roaring lions that tear their prey open their mouths wide against me. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted within me. 15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. 16 Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet. 17 All my bones are on display; people stare and gloat over me. 18 They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment. 19 But you, LORD, do not be far from me. You are my strength; come quickly to help me. 20 Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs. 21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

Psalm 22:24 (NIV) — 24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

 

[Logikos]

Again

Paragraph breaks are not a part of the inspired text

Changes in idea are, which is what paragraph breaks are there to communicate in the text.

Read the whole Psalm and you will see the relation

If you don't you might mistakenly believe God forsakes those who trust in him

which is not what the psalmist wished to show

and for the record sometimes even whole chapters are related

I never suggested that they weren't related. It is still one Psalm.

What am I even doing here? How have I allowed myself to be drug down to a place where such a sentence ever need be written?

Look, you're too hostile, too stubborn or too something to have a productive discussion with, as it seems is the case with a majority of people on this website. I do this stuff because I enjoy having substantive discussions with people about important things. This is neither substantive or important and is the opposite of fun.

Good bye!

 

[TomL]

Changes in idea are, which is what paragraph breaks are there to communicate in the text.


I never suggested that they weren't related. It is still one Psalm.

What am I even doing here? How have I allowed myself to be drug down to a place where such a sentence ever need be written?

Look, you're too hostile, too stupid or too something to have a productive discussion with as it seems is the case with a majority of people on this website. I do this stuff because I enjoy having substantive discussions with people about important things. This is neither substantive or important and is the opposite of fun.

Good bye!

Goodbye indeed you are not capable of carrying on a conversation

and incapable of having substantitive discussion

This remains true'

Again

Paragraph breaks are not a part of the inspired text

Read the whole Psalm and you will see the relation

If you don't you might mistakenly believe God forsakes those who trust in him

which is not what the psalmist wished to show

and for the record sometimes even whole chapters are related

PS Poetry does not have paragraphs but stanzas

 

[TomL]

Edit by admin

BYE

Name calling is all you have

 

[civic]

Changes in idea are, which is what paragraph breaks are there to communicate in the text.


I never suggested that they weren't related. It is still one Psalm.

What am I even doing here? How have I allowed myself to be drug down to a place where such a sentence ever need be written?

Look, you're too hostile, too stubborn or too something to have a productive discussion with, as it seems is the case with a majority of people on this website. I do this stuff because I enjoy having substantive discussions with people about important things. This is neither substantive or important and is the opposite of fun.

Good bye!

no one is forcing you to respond to any poster, there is an ignore feature for that very purpose.

and I don't always have the time to respond to every post where I'v been quoted. there is no rule in like stating a person must respond to someones question or statements. if you don't like someone then don't respond to them.

 

[civic]

Changes in idea are, which is what paragraph breaks are there to communicate in the text.


I never suggested that they weren't related. It is still one Psalm.

What am I even doing here? How have I allowed myself to be drug down to a place where such a sentence ever need be written?

Look, you're too hostile, too stubborn or too something to have a productive discussion with, as it seems is the case with a majority of people on this website. I do this stuff because I enjoy having substantive discussions with people about important things. This is neither substantive or important and is the opposite of fun.

Good bye!

You were warned plenty of times so it is goodbye. You had your chances to make it right but refused. I hope you find a place where they will allow you to insult and mistreat others and it’s a free for all. This forum is not that place which welcomes such behavior. We practice the golden rule as stated in the rules section you agreed to when you signed up here as a member. I rarely ever have to step in on this forum as moderating is not me cup of tea. I enjoy a friendly debate and iron sharpening iron. There is no room here for a continuing attack on others. That is unacceptable for anyone. So we are parting ways. Good bye.

 

[Administrator]

Please allow me to one more time explain that anyone that joins this form is more than welcome to share their opinions as long as they do it in a respectful way toward the other members. If there's any confusion please take a look at the rules that are posted under our guidelines.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-rules.47/

If we're going to spend our time here let's do so in a Christ-like manner lifting one another up. We want to store up treasures in heaven and we do that by loving one another.

 

[civic]

Please allow me to one more time explain that anyone that joins this form is more than welcome to share their opinions as long as they do it in a respectful way toward the other members. If there's any confusion please take a look at the rules that are posted under our guidelines.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-rules.47/

If we're going to spend our time here let's do so in a Christ-like manner lifting one another up. We want to store up treasures in heaven and we do that by loving one another.

Thanks for speaking the truth in love

 

[TomL]

Goodbye indeed you are not capable of carrying on a conversation

and incapable of having substantitive discussion

This remains true'

Again

Paragraph breaks are not a part of the inspired text

Read the whole Psalm and you will see the relation

If you don't you might mistakenly believe God forsakes those who trust in him

which is not what the psalmist wished to show

and for the record sometimes even whole chapters are related

PS Poetry does not have paragraphs but stanzas

Added note

it is not rational to imagine those who had no stanza's or paragraph breaks in their scriptures would be bound to read the psalm as perhaps would a modern day reader of translations with such breaks, assuming such uninspired additions were even correct

No, they would read the whole psalm and rightly recognize the value of verse 24 in understanding the psalm

God does not forsake those who trust in him.

 

[civic]

Added note

it is not rational to imagine those who had no stanza's or paragraph breaks in their scriptures would be bound to read the psalm as perhaps would a modern day reader of translations with such breaks, assuming such uninspired additions were even correct

No, they would read the whole psalm and rightly recognize the value of verse 24 in understanding the psalm

God does not forsake those who trust in him.

Thanks for that my semi pelagian brother lol. JK I saw someone call you that earlier.

 

[TomL]

Thanks for that my semi pelagian brother lol. JK I saw someone call you that earlier.

Someone who failed to use the term as it was first incorporated

Calvinist are not happy unless they can call you a Pelagian or semi Pelagian

 

[brightfame52]

Life out of Christs Death for them He died as a sacrifice for Heb 9:14-15

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Notice Vs 14 the Blood of Christ speaking of His death for the many Matt 26:28, notice the residual effect, it purges the conscience from dead works resulting in serving the living God, hence Spiritual life and Faith given is presupposed in order that we can serve the Living God, which is impossible without Spiritual life and Faith. Faith in fact is what purges/purifies the conscience or heart Acts 15 9

And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. The word purifying here and the word purge in Heb 9:14 are the same greek word katharizō

And we know the heart and conscience are linked together in the inner man

So the Death of Christ produces a Spiritual conversion to the Living God !

 

[101G]

Genesis 22:7 "And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?" Genesis 22:8 "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."

and he God "himself" was that Lamb.

101G.

 

[TomL]

Life out of Christs Death for them He died as a sacrifice for Heb 9:14-15

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Notice Vs 14 the Blood of Christ speaking of His death for the many Matt 26:28, notice the residual effect, it purges the conscience from dead works resulting in serving the living God, hence Spiritual life and Faith given is presupposed in order that we can serve the Living God, which is impossible without Spiritual life and Faith. Faith in fact is what purges/purifies the conscience or heart Acts 15 9

And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. The word purifying here and the word purge in Heb 9:14 are the same greek word katharizō

And we know the heart and conscience are linked together in the inner man

So the Death of Christ produces a Spiritual conversion to the Living God !

Only for those who believe

 

[brightfame52]

Only for those who believe

He only died for them that believe, believing is the evidence.

 

[civic]

He only died for them that believe, believing is the evidence.

False He died for everyone. Everyone is born an unbeliever .

Next

 

[brightfame52]

False He died for everyone. Everyone is born an unbeliever .

Next

Its those who have been born of God that believes, evidencing they have been redeemed by Christ.

 

[civic]

Its those who have been born of God that believes, evidencing they have been redeemed by Christ.

Nope He died for sinners separated from God, children of wrath. Eph 2

Next

 

[brightfame52]

Nope He died for sinners separated from God, children of wrath. Eph 2

Next

Again only them that have been born of God believe 1 Jn 5:1

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. Those are the sinners He died for, them that believe