civic
Well-known member
Belief in the passage precede born again. Cart before the horse once again.
The death of Jesus was a sacrifice
- Thread starter Joe
- Start date
brightfame52
Well-known member
Again only them that have been born of God believe 1 Jn 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. Those are the sinners He died for, them that believe
Being born of God is the necessary condition to believing in Jesus.
Its the same for loving them other regenerate believers, its because they were born of God. Now ask yourself, could they love the brethren spiritually before they themselves were born of the Spirit ? To be consistent you would have to say the unregenerate loved spiritually the regenerate.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Wouldnt you tell him to repent from his/her wrongdoings and trust in God’s forgiveness?
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I agree with you. Faith is an undeserved gift from our sovereign God.
Only regenerate people can love their neighbor.
That's where the great mind of Calvin got into problems... since his theology could not explain how a Jew or a Muslim can indeed love others.
He invented a thing called "restraining grace", with no salvific power, to explain this. The supposedly "restraining grace" prevents people getting too evil, but does not make them good. It is not transforming.
According to the Bible and reason, grace is one. It comes from God and it cannot produce other thing that the fruits of the spirit.
So, if you observe two persons expressing genuine love, one of them Sikh and one of them Presbyterian, you cannot say that the Sikh is just being "not too bad" because of the "restraining grace", while the Presbyterian is being "truly good" because the salvific grace.
You can say the Sikh has been chosen by God not to embrace your creed here and now, while He has chosen the Presbyterian to do it, due to the inescrutable depths of His Will and Plan. You can say that and I would agree with you. But that's very different to saying that the Sikh has been chosen to be damned and the Presbyterian to be saved.
This topic, I guess, would be better discussed in another thread.
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brightfame52
Well-known member
I would tell them the Gospel, what Christ has accomplished.
brightfame52
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
Accomplished for who ?
And you because of your theology cannot tell a single lost sinner the following :
1- Jesus loves them
2- Jesus died for their sins
So you cannot share the true gospel with anyone since you deny Jesus loves them and died for their sins.
hope this helps !!!
Bubba
Member
Jesus died willingly, on purpose, according to the plan of the Father from the foundation of the world. If you study this, you'll find that each individual member of the Trinity participates in the death of Christ, including the Holy Spirit:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God. Hebrews 9:14
The major purposes of God are attributed to each of the three members of the Trinity, once again demonstrating unity in this plurality.
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God. Hebrews 9:14
The major purposes of God are attributed to each of the three members of the Trinity, once again demonstrating unity in this plurality.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Accomplished for who ? His Sheep, His Church, Gods Elect.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Well... telling them the Gospel includes, as a key message, to repent. Do you agree?
Jesus preached repentance.
When the apostles talked to the people in the Day of Pentecost, those people "were stung in the heart and said to Peter and to the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:37,38)
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Can a Sikh love his neighbor?
If he can, then it means he has believed in Jesus and has been regenerated by the grace of God, even if he does not adhere to the same theology you adhere to.
So you have three options left, my friend:
- A. Recognize that the Sikh can love his neighbor, and therefore has been regenerated by the grace of God,
- B. Declare that such love is "fake", not the fruit of the Spirit
- C. Declare that people can love genuinely out of their degraded nature or Beelzebu's influence.
Calvin, to be consistent with his own theology, would chosse "B". He would have to DENY that the Sikh can express genuine love to his neighbor. Why? Because Calvin wouldn't admit that the Sikh has been regenerated by the grace of God, and, obviously, he knows that genuine love cannot come from our degraded nature but from God.
Calvin couldn't find a solution to the explicit teaching of Jesus, that a bad tree cannot bear good fruit, nor viceversa.
Unless we understand what "faith in Jesus" means, our theology will not make sense in real life.
brightfame52
Well-known member
The Gospel is Good News about what Christ has done, not a command to do something.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Only regenerate/saved people can believe in Jesus.
civic
Well-known member
Yes it’s a command - go make disciples of all nations. Jesus said one must take up their cross, deny themselves and follow Him if you want to be His disciples .
It’s a command
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Does a Sikh person who loves genuinely his neighbor believe in Jesus?
@civic, you are invited to answer as well.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Nobody can command someone to repent, but they can ask them, urge them to repent.
This is what the apostles did, as I showed you in the Book of Acts.
They were following the example of Jesus, who called people to repent. That was the essence of his preaching.
Let's read in the very first chapter of the oldest gospel:
After John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, aying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe the gospel.” (Mark 1:14)
brightfame52
Well-known member
You talking law.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Preaching the Gospel isnt asking anyone to do something, It about what Christ did, what He accomplished, what He gives.
Not if you believe scripture
Christ died list
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
So, what was Jesus doing in Mark 1:14?
I see that you keep re-stating your thesis without presenting Scriptural support.
You are the one supposed to believe in Sola Scriptura, not me. However, I am the one showing you Scripture.
You are also evading the question on the origin of the true love of the Sikh person.
It's understandable: Calvin's theological framework cannot answer it.
Yet, the Gospel can answer it. It is the Holy Spirit which fills the heart of that Sikh person who inspires that love. It is the salvific grace in God that makes him act as he acts. It is the true faith in Christ what has saved this person: not the intellectual belief in doctrines about a theological character, but a full trust in Jesus' teachings.
I humbly encourage you to think on these things.
