The death of Jesus was a sacrifice
- Thread starter Joe
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brightfame52
Well-known member
Again only them that have been born of God believe 1 Jn 5:1Nope only those who believe are born again .
Cart before the horsesyndrome
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. Those are the sinners He died for, them that believe
civic
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
The born again become believers.
civic
Well-known member
Sinners who believe the gospel become born again , children of God as the Bible teaches in dozens of places
brightfame52
Well-known member
Sinners who believe were already born again 1 Jn 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Just the same those who are loving their brethren have been born again. Do you think loving ones brother in Christ is a condition to get born again also ?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Those whom Christ died for are automatically free from any charges, therefore Justified,
Rom 8:32-34
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:32-34
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Hi @brightfame52 and @civic
I think both are right.
God first ignites in our hearts faith, and then, that faith makes us live a new life ("be born again").
Do we have faith because we were born again, or are we born again because we had faith? I don't know. It is like a feedback loop. In the end, all is started and sustained by God. Praise God!
Sometimes what gets in the way of our understanding is the confusion between "faith" and "belief", in the sense of an intellectual belief in a doctrine or dogma.
Intellectual belief may be a good thing, a very good thing, but it is not what faith is all about.
Faith is about trust in the power of God to forgive our sins and transform our lives (make us "be born again").
When Jesus healed and forgave people who came to Him and told them "Your faith has saved you", he didn't mean that the sinners had an orthodox belief in a given creed. He didn't make them take a quiz on Theology to pass and demonstrate they had faith.
In contrast, the Gospel presents cases of "demons" proclaiming that Jesus was the Son of God. That was not "faith". Was it?
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civic
Well-known member
Yes and notice Jesus never said it was the faith He gave them which saved/ healed them , it was their own faith that was exercised.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I agree.
The debate on free will is certainly a philosophical one, not only a theological one.
Let me share it with you as I see it:
Our freedom is like a small bubble in which we live, and that bubble is part of the ocean of God's mercy and sovereignty.
We can't fathom the infinite ocean in which we are submerged. Paul said to the people of Athens "In God we live, we move and we exist" . (Note that, by saying "we", Paul included the Pagan worshippers of Greek gods)
So we can't fathom the ocean, but what we can fathom (to a certain extent) is the freedom we exercise in our day to day.
At the same time, we perceive that our lives are conducted by an external, infinite force or will.
So, is our faith ours, or a gift from God?
Well, do you remember the story of the father who came to Jesus asking him to heal his son?
Jesus said, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
Immediately the father of the child cried out with tears, “Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief!”
So, did the man believe or not?
I'm not sure. What I know is that the father wanted with all his heart to believe.
That happened to me when I abandon my life as an atheist about 7 years ago. I wanted God to give me faith, and He gave it to me in His mercy.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
So, God doesn't owe us forgiveness because our faith is sufficient and robust enough to be entitled that forgiveness.
It is not an exchange of values, not a trade. It i not "I gave you, Lord, my faith. Now you must give me your forgiveness".
I rather believe God extends his mercy and grace despite the insufficiency, weakness and imperfection of our faith.
He is the one that makes our faith grow and become as robust as to "move mountains".
It is not an exchange of values, not a trade. It i not "I gave you, Lord, my faith. Now you must give me your forgiveness".
I rather believe God extends his mercy and grace despite the insufficiency, weakness and imperfection of our faith.
He is the one that makes our faith grow and become as robust as to "move mountains".
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Pancho Frijoles
One has Faith because they were born again, its not even a question 1 Jn 5:1,4
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Faith here is said to be born of God
One has Faith because they were born again, its not even a question 1 Jn 5:1,4
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Faith here is said to be born of God
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
What would you answer to a person who comes to you asking:
"What do I need to do in order to be born again?"
civic
Well-known member
He is a Calvinist so he cannot answer that since he doesn’t know if that person is elect , chosen for salvation or predestined for damnation. The gospel is meaningless in Calvinisms systematic
brightfame52
Well-known member
Thats in Gods Hands. Just take that opportunity to witness the Gospel.
It is a statement of fact that an action ends in a result.
Whoever stubs their toe is in pain.
Whoever eats too much is overweight.
Whoever mows on a hot day is sweaty.
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.
Everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of Him.
You are reading your doctrine into a simple factual statement of an action ending in a result.
God Bless
brightfame52
Well-known member
And only those who are overweight eat too much.
The Apostle John said whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. There is only subject difference between what he stated and my statement that whoever eats too much is overweight. In each case an action ends in a result.
I don't disagree that those who have been born of God believe, for believing is the prerequisite to be born of God. When you believe, you will be born again by God. Not one person who believes is not born of God, for God gives His Spirit too all who believe. Just like those who are overweight eat too much.; eating too much is the prerequisite for being overweight. If you eat too much, you will be overweight. It is that simple.
Note: Jesus tasted death for everyone (Heb 2:9). This means everyone not just some.
God Bless
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brightfame52
Well-known member
Again only them that have been born of God believe 1 Jn 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. Those are the sinners He died for, them that believe
Being born of God is the necessary condition to believing in Jesus.
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