The death of Jesus was a sacrifice

Jesus Himself said that His God (i.e. the Father) had forsook Him while on the cross. As for the rest, it's semantics. The truth of it depends on just what one means by saying it.


Saying it doesn't make it so.

Do you not ever actually respond to the arguments people make? Is this sort of thing what someone did to convince you of your doctrine? Is this what you consider to be intellectually honesty?


So says you.


Well, someone died a horrible death so that sort of sounds like wrath to me.


No it isn't.


Saying it doesn't make it so.


I am doing no such thing.


Amen!


Amen!


I'm not the biggest fan of how that sentence is stated. It could be more precise. As it is, it seems to imply that righteousness is arbitrarily decided by God, which would render God amoral and, in turn, render the entire question moot.

Christ's death met the demands of justice and thus allowed God to be merciful while remaining righteous. There could be no other motive than justice for having Christ die. If justice need not be met, Jesus need not have died in the first place.


The law has nothing to do with it. The law is just but justice was around long before the law (i.e. the law of Moses).
The penalty for sin is death. That's justice and that's first voiced in Genesis 2.
Jesus' death satisfied that penalty, it's substitutionary nature being first exemplified in Genesis 3 when God shed the blood of animals to make a covering for Adam and Eve.

You see what I'm doing here?
I do not believe my doctrine because there is some book somewhere that teaches something called the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement.

I believe it because of biblical precepts that are taught right from the very first few pages of the bible and in various ways throughout the scripture. If you want to have any success in convincing me (or probably anyone at all) that I'm wrong, you will have to address the reasons that I believe it.


On the contrary. What I am unwilling to do is accept the label you're trying pin on me. What you want is to paint anyone who believes anything that SOUNDS like PSA with the same brush and start attacking your favorite weak points. So far, nothing you've said comes within a mile of touching anything I believe or have said. If you were willing to debate what I believe and respond to the arguments I make rather than clinging to some obsessive need to indulge your favorite pet peeve then we might actually have a productive discussion.


Except that death is the penalty for sin and Jesus' death stands as the substitute for mine.

I mean, that is the gospel itself, Tom!


He did die for us! Rescuing us from death was the motive for Jesus going to the cross. Jesus traded His life for ours. Jesus being God Himself was able to satisfy the debt by being dead for merely three days, (Three days was more of God's life than was needed to satisfy the debt but it was three days for at least a couple of reasons, including that it was sufficiently long to prove actual death and because the timing was done in such a way as to fulfill prophesy.) and that payment rebounded to the benefit of not only us who, through faith in Him, get to both avoid death and get live with our Creator forever, but also to God who now gets to enjoy the relationships with His creation that He created us for in the first place. The ultimate win win of all time!


The longer this goes, the more I'm convinced that the problem you have with this is semantic in nature.

Maybe it will help if you offered an alternative. If Jesus' death wasn't a substitute for our deaths then what was it?


It seems all you can do is play with semantics! Did you really not understand the point I was making? You'd have to be stupid, which it's clear you're not and so you did get the point but couldn't bring yourself to acknowledge it because that would take away one of your favorite debate points!

The simple fact is that I DO NOT CARE who taught it first with the singular exception of the biblical authors. It makes no difference to me if or for how long a particular doctrine wasn't taught by the church. I don't care whether anyone EVER taught or if they ALWAYS taught it, again, with the singular exception of that which is taught in scripture. I don't care what the Reformers did or didn't do or believe. It makes no difference to me what they got right and what they got wrong. Not that such isn't important but merely that they aren't the authority and neither are they Satan where anything and everything they said was false by virtue of the fact that they said it.

In short, my doctrine, to the very best of my ability and awareness, is based on scripture and sound reason and nothing else. If you want to convince me that I've made an error then you will need to address those issues which you believe to be in error on the basis of scripture and sound reason. This guilt by association fallacy just isn't going to work on me at all. Pretty simple.
Well the scripture does not state

Christ was imputed a sinner

That he was guilty of sin

It does not state God exhausted his wrath on him

that Christ was seen as any less than holy

That Christ was defiled

Or that God actually forsook him on the cross

Look at verse 1 and then the reality in verse 24

Psalm 22:1–24 (KJV 1900) — 1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; And in the night season, and am not silent. 3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. 4 Our fathers trusted in thee: They trusted, and thou didst deliver them. 5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: They trusted in thee, and were not confounded. 6 But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised of the people. 7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: Let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. 9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: Thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts. 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: Thou art my God from my mother’s belly. 11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; For there is none to help. 12 Many bulls have compassed me: Strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. 13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, As a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; It is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; And thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: They look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; My darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion’s mouth: For thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. 22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: In the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. 23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; All ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; And fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. 24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Neither hath he hid his face from him; But when he cried unto him, he heard.
 
Well the scripture does not state

Christ was imputed a sinner

That he was guilty of sin

It does not state God exhausted his wrath on him

that Christ was seen as any less than holy

That Christ was defiled

Or that God actually forsook him on the cross

Look at verse 1 and then the reality in verse 24

Psalm 22:1–24 (KJV 1900) — 1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; And in the night season, and am not silent. 3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. 4 Our fathers trusted in thee: They trusted, and thou didst deliver them. 5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: They trusted in thee, and were not confounded. 6 But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised of the people. 7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: Let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. 9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: Thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts. 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: Thou art my God from my mother’s belly. 11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; For there is none to help. 12 Many bulls have compassed me: Strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. 13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, As a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; It is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; And thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: They look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; My darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion’s mouth: For thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. 22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: In the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. 23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; All ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; And fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. 24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Neither hath he hid his face from him; But when he cried unto him, he heard.
I just cannot understand why you're so enamored with this!

Maybe it's because you use the outdated King James bible that is not rendered in modern English with modern words and punctuation. I doubt that's really the reason but I hand it to you as an excuse you can use.

Here's the passage in modern English....

Psalms 22:
22 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.

3 But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.
5 They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.

6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7 All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They [b]shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 “He [c]trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
You have been My God.
11 Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
13 They [d]gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted [e]within Me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.

16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They[f] pierced My hands and My feet;
17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.

19 But You, O Lord, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
20 Deliver Me from the sword,
My[g] precious life from the power of the dog.
21 Save Me from the lion’s mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!

You have answered Me.

22 I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him!
All you [h]descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.

The portion of Psalms 22 that start with verse one, ends at verse 18 then verse 19 begins a new thought where comments like "deliver me from this sword" and "save me from the lion's mouth" (i.e. death) make sense. And so you are, as I have said now on more than one occasion, that verse 24 doesn't contradict anything I've said and you have to remove it from it's context to even suggest otherwise, which is made easier, by the way, when you quote a mass of words with no punctuation or paragraph divisions and then only highlight the first verse and the last verses that you chose to quote, which in the end leads to the implication that they contradict each other, which wouldn't help your case anyway!
 
I just cannot understand why you're so enamored with this!

Maybe it's because you use the outdated King James bible that is not rendered in modern English with modern words and punctuation. I doubt that's really the reason but I hand it to you as an excuse you can use.

Here's the passage in modern English....

Psalms 22:
22 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.

3 But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.
5 They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.

6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7 All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They [b]shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 “He [c]trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
You have been My God.
11 Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
13 They [d]gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted [e]within Me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.

16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They[f] pierced My hands and My feet;
17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.

19 But You, O Lord, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
20 Deliver Me from the sword,
My[g] precious life from the power of the dog.
21 Save Me from the lion’s mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!

You have answered Me.

22 I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him!
All you [h]descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.

The portion of Psalms 22 that start with verse one, ends at verse 18 then verse 19 begins a new thought where comments like "deliver me from this sword" and "save me from the lion's mouth" (i.e. death) make sense. And so you are, as I have said now on more than one occasion that verse 24 doesn't contradict anything I've said and you have to remove it from it's context to even suggest otherwise, which is made easier, by the way, when you quote a mass of words with no punctuation or paragraph divisions and then only highlight the verse and the last verses that you chose to quote.
There is no difference

24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.

it's not a matter of translation
 
There is no difference

24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.

it's not a matter of translation
Yes as we see some refuse to view the passage in its context . And we know it’s a declaration He was the Messiah.

The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."

Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
 
Yes as we see some refuse to view the passage in its context . And we know it’s a declaration He was the Messiah.

The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."

Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
Clearly Jesus was not abandoned on the cross
 
A. One God: explicit statements

1. OT: Deut. 4:35, 39: 32:39; 2 Sam. 22:32; Isa. 37:20; 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5, 14, 21-22; 46:9

2. NT: John 5:44; Rom. 3:30; 16:27; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5; James 2:19; Jude 25

B. None like God (in His essence)

1. Explicit statements: Ex. 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; 2 Sam. 7:22; 1 Chr. 17:20; Psa 86:8; 1 Kgs. 8:23; Isa. 40:18, 25; 44:7; 46:5, 9; Jer. 10:6-7; Micah 7:18
one God, one PERSON, Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." I is one "PERSON",

Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." ME is only ONE PERSON.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:" THE TERM "NONE ELSE", means, "is a correct and usable phrase in written English. It is used to emphasize that there are no other possibilities or options. "None" means not even a small amount of something.
2. Being like God a Satanic lie: Gen. 3:5; Isa. 14:14; John 8:44 3. Fallen man became "like God" only in that he took upon himself to know good and evil, not that he acquired godhood: Gen. 3:22
(smile), lol, lol, lol, did he, (God), not Create man in "his", "his", own image? yes.
C. Only one true God: 2 Chr. 15:3; Jer. 10:10; John 17:3; 1 Thess. 1:9; 1 John 5:20-21
correct, ONLY, ONLY, ONLY, one true God which is Jesus, now test time, is not John 17:3 CORRECT? yes, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." this is the TRUE GOD, CORRECT, the Father and the Son.... Right. and your trinity states the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father CORRECT. now this, Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" so, Jesus Christ is the Saviour, now this, Jude 1:25 "To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

The ONLY, ONLY, wise God and our Saviour is Jesus, RIGHT? right........ Good, now this, Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." beside the "LORD", there is no saviour.... Correct..... Correct. but is not Jesus the Son the only wise God our Saviour, correct. but dose not your trinity doctrine states, the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father? well, is both are saviours and both are "GOD", then you have two God. and if you say it's only ONE GOD, then someone is lying, either your trinity doctrine, or the bible. if not the same one Person, then according to the trinity doctrine you have two person who are two separate Gods. because Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD". the LORD is the Father, one Person, and this ONE PERSON said there is no one beside him. Isaiah 45:21 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me."

now if there are two persons who are separate and distinct, but have the same one Spirit, and one of them says, Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." if one said this, then there is no other "PERSON", beside him. for he said, "I know not any." surely if there was another person beside himself he would have KNOWN..... right. but did not the Lord Jesus said, John 16:28 "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father."
but the Father/the LORD, all caps, said he know not anyone else. listen, Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:" and the term "Beside" means, "at the side of; next to". but the LORD Said there is none else beside him....... but wait, HOLD, OR STOP THE PRESS. is not Jesus God as your trinity states? yes, well then Psalms 110:1 must be a false statement, (God forebid). "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." here we have another PERSON sitting at the "LORD" right, but did not the LORD say, Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:"
. and as 101G said, NONE ELSE means, "is a correct and usable phrase in written English. It is used to emphasize that there are no other possibilities or options. "None" means not even a small amount of something.

Uh O! either the LORD and the Lord is the same one Person who is the ONE God, else the Bible lied, which 101G knows that the bible do not LIE. so, it is the trinity doctrine that is the LIE. for God do not LIE, and the scriptures are his words. 101G suggest you re-read this post for a. edification, and b. clarity.

101G
 
one God, one PERSON, Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." I is one "PERSON",
So what You have one person speaking that does not disprove there are others in the godhead


Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." ME is only ONE PERSON.

Again one speaking does not show there are no other persons in the godhead
Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:" THE TERM "NONE ELSE", means, "is a correct and usable phrase in written English. It is used to emphasize that there are no other
Yes one God not three one God three persons

None of your verses disprove trinitarianism

Am I mistaken but did you not claim to be a trinitarian?
 
So what You have one person speaking that does not disprove there are others in the godhead
LOL, LOL, LOL, NO ONE ELSE IS SPEAKING...... LOL, LOIL, LOL, did you not hear, there none else? ... hello. there is no other person there ... "TO SPEAK". Oh my when will they ever READ, to LEARN
Again one speaking does not show there are no other persons in the godhead
see above.
Yes one God not three one God three persons

None of your verses disprove trinitarianism

Am I mistaken but did you not claim to be a trinitarian?
see above.

101G.
 
LOL, LOL, LOL, NO ONE ELSE IS SPEAKING...... LOL, LOIL, LOL, did you not hear, there none else? ... hello. there is no other person there ... "TO SPEAK". Oh my when will they ever READ, to LEARN

see above.

see above.

101G.
What is it you imagine ?

That in a group of three one cannot speak?

One cannot be the only speaker?

Are you going to continue claiming to be a trinitarian, because it clearly seems to be false
 
continued below :

Wrath from God is not required for the forgiveness of sins, that is a misnomer.

Exodus 34:6

Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth;

Isaiah 48:9
For the sake of My name I will delay My wrath; for the sake of My praise I will restrain it, so that you will not be cut off.

Psalm 78:38
And yet He was compassionate; He forgave their iniquity and did not destroy them. He often restrained His anger and did not unleash His full wrath.

Psalm 85:1-3
You, Lord, showed favor to your land;
you restored the fortunes of Jacob.
2 You forgave the iniquity of your people
and covered all their sins.
3 You set aside all your wrath
and turned from your fierce anger.

The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)

Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.

In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.

1-Matthew 8:17 Carried our diseases (Isaiah 53:4)

2-Mark 15:28 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)

3-Luke 22:37 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)

4-John 12:38 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)

5-Acts 8:32 A lamb to the slaughter (Isaiah 53:7)

6-Romans 10:16 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)

7-1Peter 2:22 He committed no sin (Isaiah 53:9)

8-1Peter 2:24 By his stripes you were healed (Isaiah 53:5)

Atonement- katallagé καταλλαγή -reconciliation, restoration to favor. Strongs 2643.

Thayers: adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favor, (from Aeschylus on); in the N. T., of the restoration of the favor of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ: 2 Corinthians 5:18f; with the genitive of the one received into favor, τοῦ κόσμου (opposed to ἀποβολή), Romans 11:15; καταλλαγήν ἐλάβομεν, we received the blessing of the recovered favor of God, Romans 5:11; with the genitive of him whose favor is recovered, 2 Macc. 5:20. (Cf. Trench, § lxxvii.)

Romans 5:11- And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. KJV

Romans 5:11- And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. NASB

1 Corinthians 5:7 say the following: For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. This means just like the firstborn were spared by the blood on the posts of their doors from God’s wrath so to are we passed over Gods wrath from the blood of Jesus. The blood of Jesus provides forgiveness of sins and God’s wrath like with the Israelites are passed over and it falls upon the wicked, not those covered and protected by the blood of the Lamb. Gods’ wrath as Romans 1 declares is still being poured out upon sin and ungodliness and the bowls of Gods wrath and punishment is still yet to come. So, if Jesus bore Gods’ wrath for sinners, then why is God’s wrath still being poured out now and in the future if in the Atonement Gods wrath was satisfied? The fact is Jesus did not bear God’s wrath on the cross because it still exists and is being poured out in the bowls of Revelation before His 2nd Coming.

Romans 1:18- The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness

Romans 5:9- Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!

Colossians 3:6-Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.

Ephesians 5:6- Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience

Thessalonians 1:10- and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Propitiation- the turning away of God's anger/wrath

Expiation- the covering for our sins

Through expiation—the work of Christ on the cross for us—the sin of all those who would ever believe in Christ was canceled. That cancellation is eternal in its consequence, even though sin is still present in the temporal sense. In other words, believers are delivered from the penalty and power of sin, but not the presence of it. Justification is the term for being delivered from the penalty of sin. This is a one-time act wherein the sinner is justified and made holy and righteous in the eyes of God, who exchanged our sinful natures for the righteousness of Christ at the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). Sanctification is the ongoing process whereby believers are delivered from the power of sin in their lives and are enabled by the new nature to resist and turn away from it. Glorification is when we are removed from the very presence of sin, which will only occur once we leave this world and are in heaven. All these processes—justification, sanctification, and glorification—are made possible through the expiation or cancellation of sin. (gotquestions.org)

Propitiation vs. Expiation- The New Testament usage of hilaskomai and hilasmos, consistent with its precedent usage in the Greek Old Testament, speaks consistently of God’s atoning action in Christ directed toward sin on behalf of sinners, not human action directed toward God to satisfy God. The criterion for interpretation, Stott has said, “is whether the object of the atoning action is God or man.” “Propitiation” indicates an action by humans directed toward God, and “expiation” indicates an action by God toward sin and sinners. According to Stott's criterion, these texts favor "expiation" over “propitiation.” Given the choice of translating hilastērion either “propitiation” or “expiation,” therefore, “expiation” is preferable based on the textual evidence of both the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament. James Dunn summarizes well the case for preferring “expiation” to “propitiation” as a translation for hilastērion: Darrin W. Snyder Belousek, Atonement, Justice, and Peace: The Message of the Cross and the Mission of the Church (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2012), 247–252.

So, as we see, the Tri-Unity of God is eternal, and the Father / Son relationship remained perfect through the crucifixion of Jesus. Our Triune God perfectly accomplished the atonement and our salvation through Jesus suffering for our sins on the cross, and His Resurrection from the dead gave Him and the church victory over sin, death, the devil, and the world.

Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The reason my Father loves Me is that I lay down My life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord” (John 10:11; 17-18). Or again, while speaking to the multitudes, Jesus declared: “Whatever the Father does the Son also does” (John 5:19). And Jesus said: “Now my heart is troubled. ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” (John 12:27-28) The clear picture that emerges from Scripture is that Jesus was not the unfortunate victim of the angry Father. Rather, the Father and the Son were working in concert through the cross to pay for the sins of humanity and make atonement. There is no division of will between the Father and the Son. Jesus’ atonement was done in love which provided covering and forgiveness of sins. And this view harmonizes with God’s wrath that is still yet to come and was not poured out on Jesus on the cross. Our loving God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Our loving Father took pleasure to bruise His Son to reconcile us to God as an offering for our sins. (Isaiah 53:10).

hope this helps !!!
I like what you and @Joe have written on the atonement and it has me rethinking what I have been taught about God the Father pouring his wrath on Jesus.
 
There is no difference

24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.

it's not a matter of translation
I didn't say it had anything to do with translation and yes there is a very big difference.

When you read it in modern English with proper punctuation and paragraph structure, it becomes obvious that you are ignoring the context.

Which is clear enough even if you don't read it in modern English really because just reading the two verses ought to be enough to tell you that something about the point you're trying to argue is wrong because if your reading of it is correct, then verse 1 and verse 24 are in simple contradiction to each other. This entire argument of yours is based on the idea that Jesus, by quoting verse 1 was actually referencing verse 24 which says the opposite of the verse that He actually quoted.

The contradiction is only resolved by the context and it is precisely the context that becomes clear when it is rendered in modern English. So much so, that you'd never quote it at all if not for the antiquated rendered of the KJV.
 
I didn't say it had anything to do with translation and yes there is a very big difference.

When you read it in modern English with proper punctuation and paragraph structure, it becomes obvious that you are ignoring the context.

Which is clear enough even if you don't read it in modern English really because just reading the two verses ought to be enough to tell you that something about the point you're trying to argue is wrong because if your reading of it is correct, then verse 1 and verse 24 are in simple contradiction to each other. This entire argument of yours is based on the idea that Jesus, by quoting verse 1 was actually referencing verse 24 which says the opposite of the verse that He actually quoted.

The contradiction is only resolved by the context and it is precisely the context that becomes clear when it is rendered in modern English. So much so, that you'd never quote it at all if not for the antiquated rendered of the KJV.
Your comment are totally gratuitous and foreign to the context


24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.
It's pretty clear he was not forsaken
 
Your comment are totally gratuitous and foreign to the context
You wish that were true! LOL!

24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.
It's pretty clear he was not forsaken
A verse which Jesus neither quoted nor made any reference to as I have now demonstrated by merely quoting the passage in plain English!

Face it, Tom! You've got nothing!
 
You wish that were true! LOL!


A verse which Jesus neither quoted nor made any reference to as I have now demonstrated by merely quoting the passage in plain English!

Face it, Tom! You've got nothing!
Sorry that is false

Matthew 27:46 (ESV) — 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”



46περὶδὲτὴνἐνάτηνὥρανἀνεβόησενἸησοῦςφωνῇμεγάλῃλέγων·
Aroundbuttheninthhourshouted outtheJesusin voicegreatsaying
ηλιηλιλεμασαβαχθανι;
elielilemasabachthani
τοῦτʼἔστιν·θεέμουθεέμου,ἱνατίμεἐγκατέλιπες;
ThisisGodof meGodof mewhymeyou left behind
Eberhard Nestle et al., The Greek New Testament (27th ed.; Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft: Stuttgart, 1993), Mt 27:46.

Cross reference

46 Jesus. Mar. 15:34. Lu. 23:46. Jno. 19:28–30. He. 5:7. Eli. Ps. 22:1; 71:11. Is. 53:10. La. 1:12.

B. Blayney, Thomas Scott, and R.A. Torrey with John Canne, Browne, The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge (vol. 2; London: Samuel Bagster and Sons, n.d.), 22.



Matthew 27:46

cried out with a loud voice, saying

Hebrews 5:7
In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.

“Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”

Psalm 22:1
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?


English Standard Version: Cross-References (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2016), Mt 27:46.

Matthew 27:46 (ESV) — 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”



Matthew 27:46

ELI

Psalms 22:1
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?


New American Standard Bible: Cross-References (Lockman Foundation, 1995), Mt 27:46.



Matthew 27:46

forsaken Me

Psalms 22:1
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?

Hebrews 5:7
In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.


Holman Bible Publishers, The Holman Christian Standard Bible: Cross-References (Nashville: Holman, 2009), Mt 27:46.

BTW did you note

Hebrews 5:7
In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.
 
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