Well the scripture does not stateJesus Himself said that His God (i.e. the Father) had forsook Him while on the cross. As for the rest, it's semantics. The truth of it depends on just what one means by saying it.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Do you not ever actually respond to the arguments people make? Is this sort of thing what someone did to convince you of your doctrine? Is this what you consider to be intellectually honesty?
So says you.
Well, someone died a horrible death so that sort of sounds like wrath to me.
No it isn't.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
I am doing no such thing.
Amen!
Amen!
I'm not the biggest fan of how that sentence is stated. It could be more precise. As it is, it seems to imply that righteousness is arbitrarily decided by God, which would render God amoral and, in turn, render the entire question moot.
Christ's death met the demands of justice and thus allowed God to be merciful while remaining righteous. There could be no other motive than justice for having Christ die. If justice need not be met, Jesus need not have died in the first place.
The law has nothing to do with it. The law is just but justice was around long before the law (i.e. the law of Moses).
The penalty for sin is death. That's justice and that's first voiced in Genesis 2.
Jesus' death satisfied that penalty, it's substitutionary nature being first exemplified in Genesis 3 when God shed the blood of animals to make a covering for Adam and Eve.
You see what I'm doing here?
I do not believe my doctrine because there is some book somewhere that teaches something called the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement.
I believe it because of biblical precepts that are taught right from the very first few pages of the bible and in various ways throughout the scripture. If you want to have any success in convincing me (or probably anyone at all) that I'm wrong, you will have to address the reasons that I believe it.
On the contrary. What I am unwilling to do is accept the label you're trying pin on me. What you want is to paint anyone who believes anything that SOUNDS like PSA with the same brush and start attacking your favorite weak points. So far, nothing you've said comes within a mile of touching anything I believe or have said. If you were willing to debate what I believe and respond to the arguments I make rather than clinging to some obsessive need to indulge your favorite pet peeve then we might actually have a productive discussion.
Except that death is the penalty for sin and Jesus' death stands as the substitute for mine.
I mean, that is the gospel itself, Tom!
He did die for us! Rescuing us from death was the motive for Jesus going to the cross. Jesus traded His life for ours. Jesus being God Himself was able to satisfy the debt by being dead for merely three days, (Three days was more of God's life than was needed to satisfy the debt but it was three days for at least a couple of reasons, including that it was sufficiently long to prove actual death and because the timing was done in such a way as to fulfill prophesy.) and that payment rebounded to the benefit of not only us who, through faith in Him, get to both avoid death and get live with our Creator forever, but also to God who now gets to enjoy the relationships with His creation that He created us for in the first place. The ultimate win win of all time!
The longer this goes, the more I'm convinced that the problem you have with this is semantic in nature.
Maybe it will help if you offered an alternative. If Jesus' death wasn't a substitute for our deaths then what was it?
It seems all you can do is play with semantics! Did you really not understand the point I was making? You'd have to be stupid, which it's clear you're not and so you did get the point but couldn't bring yourself to acknowledge it because that would take away one of your favorite debate points!
The simple fact is that I DO NOT CARE who taught it first with the singular exception of the biblical authors. It makes no difference to me if or for how long a particular doctrine wasn't taught by the church. I don't care whether anyone EVER taught or if they ALWAYS taught it, again, with the singular exception of that which is taught in scripture. I don't care what the Reformers did or didn't do or believe. It makes no difference to me what they got right and what they got wrong. Not that such isn't important but merely that they aren't the authority and neither are they Satan where anything and everything they said was false by virtue of the fact that they said it.
In short, my doctrine, to the very best of my ability and awareness, is based on scripture and sound reason and nothing else. If you want to convince me that I've made an error then you will need to address those issues which you believe to be in error on the basis of scripture and sound reason. This guilt by association fallacy just isn't going to work on me at all. Pretty simple.
Christ was imputed a sinner
That he was guilty of sin
It does not state God exhausted his wrath on him
that Christ was seen as any less than holy
That Christ was defiled
Or that God actually forsook him on the cross
Look at verse 1 and then the reality in verse 24
Psalm 22:1–24 (KJV 1900) — 1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; And in the night season, and am not silent. 3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. 4 Our fathers trusted in thee: They trusted, and thou didst deliver them. 5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: They trusted in thee, and were not confounded. 6 But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised of the people. 7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: Let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. 9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: Thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts. 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: Thou art my God from my mother’s belly. 11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; For there is none to help. 12 Many bulls have compassed me: Strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. 13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, As a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; It is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; And thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: They look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; My darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion’s mouth: For thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. 22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: In the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. 23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; All ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; And fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. 24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Neither hath he hid his face from him; But when he cried unto him, he heard.