The death of Jesus was a sacrifice

The Gospel is preached to them that have Faith, what does Rom 1:8 say ?

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Sorry you just ignored this

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

The bible shows the gospel was preached to those who had not believed

which shows the gospel was preached indiscriminately to those who responded either in faith or disbelief
 
Sorry you just ignored this

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

The bible shows the gospel was preached to those who had not believed

which shows the gospel was preached indiscriminately to those who responded either in faith or disbelief
They had faith, faith is before believing. Those who believed already had faith. Paul want to preach the Gospel to who in Rome ? Rom :8,15

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that have faith] that are at Rome also.
 
They had faith, faith is before believing. Those who believed already had faith. Paul want to preach the Gospel to who in Rome ? Rom :8,15

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that have faith] that are at Rome also.
Sorry you did not even read the verse

Sorry you just ignored this

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

The bible shows the gospel was preached to those who had not believed

which shows the gospel was preached indiscriminately to those who responded either in faith or disbelief
 
Sorry you did not even read the verse

Sorry you just ignored this

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

The bible shows the gospel was preached to those who had not believed

which shows the gospel was preached indiscriminately to those who responded either in faith or disbelief
Of course some believe not, they had no faith and weren't Christs Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
 
Hello brother,

Jeremiah 32:35, "And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."

How does God author everything and yet Israel's abomination of building high places to Baal where they sacrificed their children in fire to a false god was never commanded nor did it come to God's mind?

I once was a Calvinist, a hyper one at that for many years, but the Lord freed me from that false doctrine. One of the things the Lord gave to me was an understanding of His sovereignty, and then a couple of weeks after that disclosure, I read what A.W. Tozer penned and it matched in essence of what was revealed to me.
“God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, 'What doest thou?' Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.”​

While God is sovereign, it does not mean He dictates every thought and action of creation. He has given us a will to use freely within His sovereignty, and because he is sovereign, we are held accountable to the actions of our will.

God has declared His will for our life...
  • "Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?" (Eze 33:11)
  • "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead." (Act 17:30-31)
  • "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1Ti 2:3-4)
  • "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. "(2Pe 3:9)

I urge you to reconsider your belief; that it may be you who is wrong and that a true God centered understanding does not incorporate God authoring sin. Nowhere in the bible does it state God authors sin, and even the Calvinistic WCF states, God “neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin” (5:4).

Making God the author of sin is a hyper Calvinist view. I should know since I once believed in such.

God deciding that sin exist and establishing the parameters that constitutes sin is not the same as authoring it. Permitting sin to exist puts the onus of creation's obedience upon them. This is the biblical understanding when looked at objectively.

To continue on, you will not find it anywhere in the bible that God punished His Son who offered His life unto death for our sins. And you will not find that God poured out His wrath upon His Son.

To put things into perspective from the KJV.
The word punish is used one time in the NT. (Acts 4:21)
The word punished is used four times in the NT. (Acts 22:5, Acts 26:11, 2Th 1:9, 2Pe 2:9)
The word punishment is used four times in the NT. (Matt 25:46, 2Cor 2:6, Heb 10:29, 1 Pe 2:14)
The word wrath is used 38 times in the NT

Of all these instances, not once are any of these words used towards our Lord, not once.

Surely, something as important as that would be the central theme expounded upon by the NT authors.

But what we do see is God love in action. He sent His own Son to become one of us in all ways, to live under the Law and being tempted in all ways like us and never sinning, and to willing offer His life unto death as a sin offering to make reconciliation for our sins. This is what you will read in the bible. And you will also read in Romans 5:18 where our Lord's one act of righteousness (doing God's will out of love for Him and us to die for our sins) brought justification and life for all men.

As for God slaying/killing His own Son, that is never found in the bible either. What you will find is that Jesus our Lord "being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death" (Acts 2:23).

This means that God delivered, which is a derivative of gave as used by the Lord in John 3:16 when He said, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

God gave Him up, as surrendered Him to the Jewish people that He foreknew would use the Romans to kill Him. This to fulfill His purpose of as foretold by His prophets for our salvation, which Peter preached to the Jewish people in Acts 2, and other prophecies and teachings as stated in the bible.

While it is very true that God deliberately surrendered His Son to those who would kill Him, it is also very true Jesus had the final say whether He died or not. "My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

And again, in the garden during His arrest He said, "But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?"

The Apostle Paul wrote to the Ephesians, "And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma".

As for those who slayed/killed the Lord, the Apostle Peter preached to the Jews they were the ones responsible for murdering the Lord through the Romans not our God.

Conclusion: God does not author sin. He did not punish or pour wrath upon His Son for our sins; this is wrong that even a child knows it is not fair/just. And neither did He slay or kill His own Son. He gave Him over to the Jews who he foreknew would murder His Son through the Romans. But it was our Lord Jesus Christ who had the final say and He gave up His own life as an offering for our sins; this single act of righteousness brought Justification and life to all men.

I have used the bible in context to respond to the topics covered. I can only hope you read with an open mind, to learn what I was taught from the Lord through His Word and by His Spirit.


God Bless
Well said brother I always enjoy not only reading your posts but also as a student learning from them. :)
 
Notice the condescending tone of his opening sentence. I haven't yet read one syllable past this and I can already tell you that he isn't going to address a word I said. He'll repeat his doctrine - nothing more.


Not if you agree with that hideous article, you don't!


If God did not die for YOUR sins, you will die for your sins.


Nonsense! They didn't realize that they were committing Deicide! They thought they were killing just another religious nut and didn't know that they were killing God Himself, a sin that only God Himself could forgive.


It was precisely for justice's sake that Jesus, God the Son, laid down His life for!


It was justice that demanded Christ's death!

You deity deniers blow my mind with the pretzels that you will twist yourself into to deny the simplest truths that any child can understand intuitively!

God is just, Joe! If all you did was to get that single idea firmly planted into your mind, 90% of your errors would vanish in an instant! God love us and desires greatly to have a genuine relationship with not only us by with the whole of His creation but there is this sin problem that is in the way. If God were to simply pretend like that sin didn't happen or come up with some totally arbitrary manner of "dealing" with it then He would not be just. God desires to be merciful but is not willing to become unrighteous (i.e. unjust - same thing) to do so. Therefore, He provides a propitiation that satisfies the demands of justice and thereby provides the opportunity for mercy.

Now, THAT is THE gospel! Deny it at your own peril.


It was both. Who taught you how to think?


Stupidity that has exactly zero to do with scripture or the Christian faith.


Blasphemy.


The cross was not some sort of plan to change anyone's mind about anything.

Serious, what lunatic taught you this nonsense?


It was the "payment and punishment" that made the forgiveness possible! Again, God is just! Get that through your head! God cannot do any old arbitrary thing at all and remain just.


And you as you well - according to your actions.
Projecting since you were the condescending/ judgmental one not @Joe. Let’s us know when you can make a biblical argument instead of an emotional one.

Hope this helps !!!
 
Im afraid so. Just like one is an elect before they believe. Sheep and Elect are one.
Sorry, not according to the definition found in the verse

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

If they are not hearing his voice and following him, they are not his sheep

Maybe you should forget what your theology tells you and believe scripture
 
Sorry, not according to the definition found in the verse

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

If they are not hearing his voice and following him, they are not his sheep

Maybe you should forget what your theology tells you and believe scripture
A person is born a Sheep of Christ from their mother's womb
 
A person is born a Sheep of Christ from their mother's womb
Sorry that idea is not from the bible, and you just ignored scripture

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

If they are not hearing his voice and following him, they are not his sheep

Maybe you should forget what your theology tells you and believe scripture
 
Sorry that idea is not from the bible, and you just ignored scripture

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

If they are not hearing his voice and following him, they are not his sheep

Maybe you should forget what your theology tells you and believe scripture
Sure its in the bible. Christ prayed for His Sheep to believe in Him through the word before they were ever born. Jn 17:9-20

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
 
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