The Covenant Context of Salvation
- Thread starter JoshebB
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civic
Well-known member
Christ delivered them. The One Lord is Jesus
Jude 1- and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe
English Standard Version
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
Berean Standard Bible
Although you are fully aware of this, I want to remind you that after Jesus had delivered His people out of the land of Egypt, He destroyed those who did not believe.
Berean Literal Bible
Now I want to remind you, you having known all this, that Jesus, having saved at one time a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward He destroyed those not having believed.
NET Bible
Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.
Literal Standard Version
Now I intend to remind you, you once having known all this, that Jesus, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, He secondly destroyed those not having believed;
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Your right
Then let’s call it with a different term, like mankind or saved people from all tribes and nations
Jesus was sent to mankind his covenant is with mankind. Do you agree, civic?
civic
Well-known member
Your OT verse doesn’t apply to your above comments. You need a different passage to reconcile your view.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I think I'll join this conversation.....
Realize I'm not taking this "Universalists" position. I simply arguing the point. We should debate such points as this because they are essential to our over all theology.
God forgave descendants of Abraham "Ninevites".
Ishmael had a covenant through Abraham to God.
Gen 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Notice I left out verse #21. I did this for a reason. I want you to make this argument you're going to make to me in return. Please do.
Anyone else, please feel free to establish that God didn't intend to save all the descendants of Abraham.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Christ fulfilled that covenant. The promise wasn't to Isaac. It was to Abraham in Christ.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Notice the inclusion of Abraham.
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
The covenant promise was to all nations.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I usually only pay attention to those who respond to me or active threads here. I missed this.
I'll weigh in.
Yes.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
The very priest work of Christ is in relationship to a priestly order that had nothing to do with the descendants of Aaron. Thusly, there is salvation in the Priestly work of Christ apart from Abraham.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Good, because Scripture doesn't.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Why do you think it does not apply?
What passage explains what is the New Covenant that Jesus inaugurated?
civic
Well-known member
Hermenuetics 101- The New interprets the Old.
Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15;These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21;And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25David said about him:
“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
27because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I agree.
The prophet Joel, quoted by Peter, also spoke to Israel, the children of Zion.
So, why are you not considering the prophecy of Jeremiah as a description of the New Covenant that Jesus inaugurated?
Both Joel and Jeremiah speak about a time where intimate knowledge of God will be widespread .
I’m not understanding your point, civic. Please clarify.
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civic
Well-known member
Here is how we can understand the OT and its meaning with certain passages especially prophetic ones. The N.T. will quote the OT passage and declare this is the fulfillment of it. Jesus and the Apostles did this on numerous occasions. One cannot be dogmatic about a prophetic passage in the OT when the NT doesn't say it was fulfilled. There are 100's of OT and NT prophetic passages yet to be fulfilled in the bible.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Yes, but the new is revealed to people living in the new… not to people living in the old. Do we agree on this?
King David and the Ninevites will not be judged by knowledge appearing many centuries later.
God did not demand from them to confess belief in any specific aspect of Jesus mission in order to be forgiven.
If pre existent Jesus mediated between David and God to forgive his sin, fantastic! … but that is something we don’t know and David didn’t know. What we know and David knew is that he was forgiven and transformed by the mercy of God because David truly repented.
Same with Ninevites. Jesus affirmed they would be saved because they had repented, not because they had confessed to believe in the Messiah.
Adherence to the doctrine of Jesus deity, PSA and physical resurrection is NOT a necessary condition for salvation. Genuine repentance is.
That’s how God’s grace operates in Buddhists or Muslims or Sikhs… something some Evangelical pastors hate to imagine.
As our dear brother @Studyman would say, they can’t stand the thought of it because that would shake the foundations of their religious businesses.
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civic
Well-known member
David knew as he said the Lord sayeth to my Lord and many of the psalms like 22. He knew His Savior, His Messiah who was revealed in many places and different times in the O.T.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
ONe.
@Josheb please, please, please pay attention:
One thing is what David knew by revelation.
A different thing is what David was required by God to do in order to be saved.
He required to repent, to turn from his evil ways. Is this so difficult to understand and accept?
The two of you know hundreds of things about the Bible… but you are not required to know them or accept them to be saved. Do we agree?
So, we cannot say that civic or @JoshebB are saved because they believe in a Second Coming of Jesus. If they accept it, great, fantastic, but even if they didn’t accept it, God would not despise their broken, contrite heart.
Claiming that God required Aaron, or Joshua, or Nathan, or Isaiah, or Esther, or the thousand of Hebrew peasants, shepherds, fishers, merchants, soldiers or housewives to believe in Jesus deity, PSA or physical resurrection in order to be saved is ABSURD. Absurd historically, theologically, biblically.
Is there any Christian theologian who claims that? Not Catholic theologians, for sure. Not Lutherans, for sure. Not even Seventh Day Adventist, or Mormons, or JWs. So, who in the Forum claims that? Do you claim that, civic? Do you claim that, @JoshebB ?
If I am making a strawman here, please forgive me and explain your position.
Again, please, please, please pay attention:
@Josheb please, please, please pay attention:
One thing is what David knew by revelation.
A different thing is what David was required by God to do in order to be saved.
He required to repent, to turn from his evil ways. Is this so difficult to understand and accept?
The two of you know hundreds of things about the Bible… but you are not required to know them or accept them to be saved. Do we agree?
So, we cannot say that civic or @JoshebB are saved because they believe in a Second Coming of Jesus. If they accept it, great, fantastic, but even if they didn’t accept it, God would not despise their broken, contrite heart.
Claiming that God required Aaron, or Joshua, or Nathan, or Isaiah, or Esther, or the thousand of Hebrew peasants, shepherds, fishers, merchants, soldiers or housewives to believe in Jesus deity, PSA or physical resurrection in order to be saved is ABSURD. Absurd historically, theologically, biblically.
Is there any Christian theologian who claims that? Not Catholic theologians, for sure. Not Lutherans, for sure. Not even Seventh Day Adventist, or Mormons, or JWs. So, who in the Forum claims that? Do you claim that, civic? Do you claim that, @JoshebB ?
If I am making a strawman here, please forgive me and explain your position.
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Spiritual salvation is always and exclusively occurs within a covenant with Christ.
Now, the stipulations of the New Covenant are repentance, belief, faith, etc... on the part of the sinner and the Cross, Pentecost, etc.. on the part of God. Repentance and faith are attainable at all times by man but the Cross and Pentecost took place only at NT times. Therefore, the New Covenant is in force only in NT times. So, what does that mean for believers like King David? We can pursue that topic.
CC: @Pancho Frijoles
civic
Well-known member
David knew the Son personally as He was His Lord. He was His Shepherd. He is the great Shepherd of the sheep. If anyone in all of scripture besides Jesus understood sheep and Shepherding it was David. The Son is the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep. David wrote about it in numerous places. See Psalm 23 , Ez 34 and Zech 13:7 for starters. The OT Prophets knew their Shepherd was the Lord. There is only One Lord, One Shepherd of the sheep and that is Christ.
John 10:16- They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
This ends the discussion, signed, sealed and delivered by Christ the One Lord/Shepherd of the sheep.
So instead of the Cross and Pentecost, you're willing to believe what "Gabriel" told Muhammad or how Baháʼu'lláh attempted to usurp Christ? Give me a break.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Good for David. He was a very blessed and privileged man.
But again, I’m afraid you are not paying attention to what I said.
Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, pay attention out of minimal courtesy to me:
God did not require David, nor any of the potters, tailors, peasants, fishers, artisans, merchants, carpenters, soldiers, musicians or housewives of Israel, to believe in the deity, penal substitutionary atonement or physical resurrection of a Messiah to come centuries later, in order to forgive them and change their lives.
Do you agree with this statement, civic?
civic
Well-known member
That would be incorrect and a false assumption. His deity is everywhere throughout the entire OT beginning in Genesis 1. God walked with adam. God said let US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness.
Jesus in the NT emphatically declares no man has seen the Father or heard His voice in the OT. So either Jesus is telling the TRUTH or He is a Liar ?
Which is it ? Was Jesus telling the truth ?
Then who did the OT prophets/people see and hear as God/YHWH ?
It cannot be the Father or Jesus is a liar so who was it ?
It was the Son.
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