The Covenant Context of Salvation

[synergy]

Good for David. He was a very blessed and privileged man.
But again, I’m afraid you are not paying attention to what I said.
Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, pay attention out of minimal courtesy to me:

God did not require David, nor any of the potters, tailors, peasants, fishers, artisans, merchants, carpenters, soldiers, musicians or housewives of Israel, to believe in the deity, penal substitutionary atonement or physical resurrection of a Messiah to come centuries later, in order to forgive them and change their lives.

Do you agree with this statement, civic?

When the souls of all those people (OT Saints) were confronted with the Truth of the Cross by Christ in Hades, what do you suppose they did?

 

[Studyman]

Simultaneously, over-thinking it, muddying the waters unnecessarily, and just plain wrong. Not dealing with the facts already in evidence, either.

Wow, this response if fascinating. You have a man asking relevant questions and making relevant points, regarding the very topic you started, and instead of having a discussion, examining scriptures with him in search of Biblical Truth, you talk down to him, accuse him of nefarious motives, and judge him as "wrong", simply because he hasn't adopted your specific religious sect, or the religious philosophies it promotes?

I love Pancho's perspective. He doesn't "Come in Christ's Name", He didn't "Transform himself" into an apostle of Christ. So based on NT teaching, your philosophy is potentially more dangerous than his questions. He asks relevant questions and makes valid points of scripture. I don't always agree with him, and his questions are sometimes provocative. But if I can't answer for my faith, how is that a fault of Pancho?

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

His point regarding the difference between "revealed" and "veiled" is spot on. Certainly, a topic worthy of more than just basically telling a person who brings it up "your wrong, now shut up".

Nineveh is a great example to discuss. I would love to discuss Nineveh and Sodom, and what is revealed about God in these two examples written for our admonition.

You shouldn't just blow Pancho off because his questions are challenging. And if you can't or don't know the answer, just say, "I don't know". We shouldn't just accuse him of purposeful, nefarious motives, unless he provides evidence of such. And he hasn't to date.

 

[Studyman]

Try the following...

Galatians 3:8-9,16
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All nations will be blessed in you." So, then, those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer................... Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

The gospel was preached to Abraham. The promises contained in that gospel were spoken to Abraham..... and his seed, Jesus. Abraham understood that it would be God pledging fealty to God, pledging His life to God.

Genesis 15:17-18
It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces. On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land....."

That had nothing to do with Israel (which would not exist for several hundred years) and everything to do with 1 Peter 2:9.

But according to God's own Words, why did Abraham receive this blessing?

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

In other words, Abraham "Repented, "Yielded Himself" to God, (As Paul teaches) and brought forth Works, worthy of repentance. Or as the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches, Abraham denied himself, picked up his life's experiences, and followed after the Works of the Lord's Christ. (Humbled Himself in obedience to God)

And who did Jesus say Abraham's Children are? Here is what HE told those who claimed to be Abraham Children and heirs to the Promise.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

So what is "revealed to us" through this Gospel? Isn't it that calling Abraham our father, or calling Jesus Lord, Lord, is not a condition placed on receiving the Salvation of God. Rather, becoming a "Doer" of God's instruction, like Abraham and Nineveh did? Isn't this the path to making a Covenant with the Christ?

 

[praise_yeshua]

If you would... The Hypostatic Union is on full display in the covenant promise given to Abraham. The heavenly joined with the earthly in the promises of salvation promised before this world began.
The heavenly seed and the earth seed join in Jesus Christ. All nations of the earth blessed Christ our Lord.
Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

 

[JoshebB]

@Pancho Frijoles,

I do not mean to be unkind. I do mean to be direct. I am confident you think your posts have merit but they do not. Instead, they show an amazing amount of ignorance of both scripture and basic logic. On top of that, apparently my posts have somehow been found provoking because a pile of posts to defend the mistakes is a dead giveaway for something triggered. From the scriptural point of view the FACT is Jesus is the ONLY way ANYONE can be saved. If memory serves me correctly, you and I have discussed the exclusive nature of Jesus' and the NT writers' claim of exclusivity. This, of course, directly contradicts the Bahai viewpoint of revelation being progressive in nature, coming in many forms in many ways from many sources. You are never going to find consensus with that in this Christian forum in a thread populated with Christians, especially not the conservative evangelicals in assembly here. It's understandable that anyone in your position might want to present a rationale case for an alternative that might persuade us but that brings me back to my first point: Ignorance and fallacy has been posted, not exegesis and logic, and you apparently don't see it.

The minute Paul wrote there is no other person, no other name by which anyone can be saved he necessarily qualified the entirety of Christian revelation and asserted a huge problem for all other religions. Paul did that knowingly and if he wrote those words under God's inspired direction then it was God Himself qualifying the entirety of His revelation and necessarily precluding a plethora of disparate views heled by others in Paul's day (and that would include the Jewish appeal to ritual and the Law, as well as all the Gentile viewpoints existing in Paul's day). We might discuss whether or not, or how and to what degree the knowledge of Christ crucified and resurrected was revealed in other religions, but the exclusivity of Jesus is not up for debate.

Aside from that, much of what you've posted has ignored to stipulations of the op (like the covenant aspect of salvation) and is, therefore, off topic, digressive, and perhaps even indicative of your imposing an agenda on the thread rather than respecting the op.

So take a few breaths.

The covenant within which David and the Ninevites (assuming they were soteriologically saved) were saved is Christological. That fact has been evidenced and proven using verse explaining that condition. You don't get to dispute it anymore. That Old Testament persons heard the gospel and possessed at least some knowledge of that gospel has also been demonstrated. You don't get to dispute that, either. In fact, entire books about this have been written and simple survey of that matter would consume several posts. That you either do not already know that or would presume to teach any of us differently is another indication of sheer ignorance of the Bible. As someone who is Bahai and, therefore, believes the Bible a part of divine inspiration it is incumbent on you to understand its depth before presuming to tell any Christian what it says or what it means. I happen to be someone who has read all the great books and studied with teachers in those religions, but the Christians here have chosen and been led not to study other perspective and devote themselves to the study of the Bible. The fact that we have real and seemingly disparate views does not change the fact most of us have studied the Bible much more thoroughly than you. Your posts here confirm that fact. You've stalled over Paul's statement there is no other person by which anyone can be saved and how that qualifies everything written in the OT. I am not the only one here who has attempted to help you understand this and when it exceeds the point of agreeing to disagree it disrupts the thread, especially when it becomes argumentum ad nauseam.




This op, btw, is intended to bring to light the significance of the covenant relationship regarding salvation. It will prove to be a matter of controversy for some. I will not be digressing to discuss all the nonsense you've posted, and I exhort everyone else in the thread (@civic, @Dizerner, @praise_yeshua, @Red Baker, @synergy, @Studyman) not to fall prey to digression. The op's question is simple and specific, and the minute Paul cited the exclusivity of Christ he also qualified every covenant ever mentioned in the Bible. Logic dictates that if there is no other person by which anyone can be saved then every single covenant with God must somehow be related to that fact.

It does not take four pages posts to answer this op's inquiry and every occasion when I read someone answering the question asked, I endeavor move the conversation forward.

 

[JoshebB]

But according to God's own Words, why did Abraham receive this blessing?

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

In other words, Abraham "Repented, "Yielded Himself" to God, (As Paul teaches) and brought forth Works, worthy of repentance. Or as the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches, Abraham denied himself, picked up his life's experiences, and followed after the Works of the Lord's Christ. (Humbled Himself in obedience to God)

And who did Jesus say Abraham's Children are? Here is what HE told those who claimed to be Abraham Children and heirs to the Promise.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

So what is "revealed to us" through this Gospel? Isn't it that calling Abraham our father, or calling Jesus Lord, Lord, is not a condition placed on receiving the Salvation of God. Rather, becoming a "Doer" of God's instruction, like Abraham and Nineveh did? Isn't this the path to making a Covenant with the Christ?

Is the covenant with Abraham Christological?

 

[JoshebB]

If you would... The Hypostatic Union is on full display in the covenant promise given to Abraham. The heavenly joined with the earthly in the promises of salvation promised before this world began.
The heavenly seed and the earth seed join in Jesus Christ. All nations of the earth blessed Christ our Lord.
Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Is the covenant with Abraham Christological?

 

[JoshebB]

Spiritual salvation is always and exclusively occurs within a covenant with Christ.

Thank you for that succinct answer.

Next question:

Can you cite a covenant with God in the Bible that God did not initiate? Or, to put the same question in other words, is there a covenant with God that God did not, Himself, initiate? Has any human in the Bible ever initiated or instigated a covenant with God?

.

 

[JoshebB]

You shouldn't just blow Pancho off...

You should answer this op's inquiry and keep the posts about the posts, not the posters so you're part of the solution and not the problem.

The Covenant Context of Salvation

Let me begin by asking a question (or two). Does salvation always and exclusively occur within a covenant with Christ? Wording the same question differently, does salvation from sin and wrath ever occur outside of a covenant relationship with God's Son, Jesus?

.

That is, or should be, an easily and readily answered question and three of the posters did everyone the courtesy of answering the question. You? Not so much. So, before you start ragging on me look in the mirror and remove that huge log from your own eye. Just answer the question asked. discuss the op, and don't contribute to digression. If you would like to discuss Ninevah with @Pancho Frijoles then do so but please do not hijack the op with irrelevancies. He's been shown scripture indicating the gospel of Christ was known in the NT.

Does salvation always occur within a covenant with Christ?


.

 

[JoshebB]

I think I already replied to this but maybe not,

There are "none", so, I cannot cite even one.....all covenants in the scriptures between God and humanity are initiated by God.

Thank you, too, for the succinct answer.

Next question:

Can you cite a covenant with God in the Bible that God did not initiate? Or, to put the same question in other words, is there a covenant with God that God did not, Himself, initiate? Has any human in the Bible ever initiated or instigated a covenant with God?

.

 

[JoshebB]

At the risk of contradicting myself with digression, I've been listening to Al Green all morning. Is that guy jammin' or what? His voice is like a hot knife through butter . mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......... Hard to type while dancing .

 

[synergy]

I think I already replied to this but maybe not,

Thank you, too, for the succinct answer.

Next question:

Can you cite a covenant with God in the Bible that God did not initiate? Or, to put the same question in other words, is there a covenant with God that God did not, Himself, initiate? Has any human in the Bible ever initiated or instigated a covenant with God?

All salvific covenants between God and man have been initiated by God. Man cannot offer himself that which he has no power over (i.e.: the ability to save himself).

 

[JoshebB]

All salvific covenants between God and man have been initiated by God. Man cannot offer himself that which he has no power over (i.e.: the ability to save himself).

Amen! Thank you again for such a wonderfully succinct answer.

I'd like to examine some of the details of God initiating His covenant.

1. God first choses someone or some group as a participant in His covenant. Yes? Do I have that correct?
2. God then calls that person or some group as a participant in His covenant. Yes? Do I have that correct? Let me further clarify that particular question because it's written exactly as I mean to ask it. I did not ask whether or not God called the person/group to be a participant. Perhaps that is correct but what I am asking is about when God called that person/group did He do so treating that person as a covenant participant, as if the matter had already been decided prior to His calling him/her/them? Yes? No?

.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Is the covenant with Abraham Christological?

Yes. Absolutely.

My issue revolves primary how this covenant is addressed theology in application to humanity. I do also believe there are covenants that exist in the Trinity itself. It is expressed in the very nature of God. "For God could swore by no greater, He swore by Himself."

If you want to discuss further we can. I know you're looking to have a specific conversation I don't want to distract from this.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Amen! Thank you again for such a wonderfully succinct answer.

I'd like to examine some of the details of God initiating His covenant.

1. God first choses someone or some group as a participant in His covenant. Yes? Do I have that correct?
2. God then calls that person or some group as a participant in His covenant. Yes? Do I have that correct? Let me further clarify that particular question because it's written exactly as I mean to ask it. I did not ask whether or not God called the person/group to be a participant. Perhaps that is correct but what I am asking is about when God called that person/group did He do so treating that person as a covenant participant, as if the matter had already been decided prior to His calling him/her/them? Yes? No?

.

Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

No covenant is enforceable without..... death

English translation are so problematic when dealing with this issue.

"will" is used here in most modern translations but the word is actually διαθήκη

There are aspects of covenants that most people don't understand.

 

[Studyman]

Is the covenant with Abraham Christological?

God's Covenant of Circumcision with Abraham certainly foreshadowed the Life of Christ. Denial of the Flesh is most certainly a Salvational requirement. One the Ninevites accepted, but the Sodomites didn't. Even Cain was instructed to rule over his flesh.

 

[JoshebB]

Yes. Absolutely.

Thank you.

My issue revolves primary how this covenant is addressed theology in application to humanity....

Perhaps but this is my issue, not yours . If you start and op on how the covenant with Abraham is addressed theology in application to humanity then I will weigh in but, for the purposes of this op the fact is the Abraham is covenant is Christological and, therefore, it is a covenant that exists in Christ. Any appeal to salvation from sin and wrath relevant to that covenant confirms the affirmative answer to this op's inquiry.

Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

No covenant is enforceable without..... death. English translation are so problematic when dealing with this issue. "will" is used here in most modern translations but the word is actually διαθήκη. There are aspects of covenants that most people don't understand.

We're not discussing aspects of the covenant most people do not understand. Having answered the op's initial inquiry, the next question is:

Can a covenant with God in the Bible that God did not initiate be cited? Or, to put the same question in other words, is there a covenant with God that God did not, Himself, initiate? Has any human in the Bible ever initiated or instigated a covenant with God?

.

 

[JoshebB]

God's Covenant of Circumcision with Abraham certainly foreshadowed the Life of Christ.

Yes. I agree.

Next question:

Can you cite a covenant with God in the Bible that God did not initiate? Or, to put the same question in other words, is there a covenant with God that God did not, Himself, initiate? Has any human in the Bible ever initiated or instigated a covenant with God?

.

Denial of the Flesh is most certainly a Salvational requirement. One the Ninevites accepted, but the Sodomites didn't. Even Cain was instructed to rule over his flesh.

Not germane at this point. We'll get to these matters in the due course of time. For now, very simple, easily and readily answered questions are being asked. When answered they build consensus and where disparate answers are given then the exact point of disagreement is established. There is a madness to my method .


Can you cite a covenant with God in the Bible that God did not initiate? Or, to put the same question in other words, is there a covenant with God that God did not, Himself, initiate? Has any human in the Bible ever initiated or instigated a covenant with God?

.

 

[praise_yeshua]

We're not discussing aspects of the covenant most people do not understand. Having answered the op's initial inquiry, the next question is:

Can a covenant with God in the Bible that God did not initiate be cited? Or, to put the same question in other words, is there a covenant with God that God did not, Himself, initiate? Has any human in the Bible ever initiated or instigated a covenant with God?

.

I respectfully disagree. It is essential that one understand the requirements of covenants to answer this question above. However, I will go along....

Yes.

1Sa 1:11 And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.

 

[synergy]

Amen! Thank you again for such a wonderfully succinct answer.

I'd like to examine some of the details of God initiating His covenant.

1. God first choses someone or some group as a participant in His covenant. Yes? Do I have that correct?

God's gift of salvation is conditionally offered to all. The conditions are vividly stipulated in the New Covenant for all to see. What we have here is what can be metaphorically called as a "level playing field" for all mankind. Thus, God's choosing is completely transparent and just. God chooses the one who accepts and believes God's initiated offer of salvation.

1. God then calls that person or some group as a participant in His covenant. Yes? Do I have that correct? Let me further clarify that particular question because it's written exactly as I mean to ask it. I did not ask whether or not God called the person/group to be a participant. Perhaps that is correct but what I am asking is about when God called that person/group did He do so treating that person as a covenant participant, as if the matter had already been decided prior to His calling him/her/them? Yes? No?

There are multiple forms/types of callings. You need to be specific on which calling you wish to discuss. Is it your vocational calling that God has preordained for you? Is it a gospel calling to believe in Christ? Your God-given conscience oftentimes calls out to you. Which calling are you talking about?