The Covenant Context of Salvation

[GodsGrace]

I agree with what you wrote. A wishy washy Christianity lends itself to a thousand heresies that are just itching to attack Christianity. Pancho promotes ignorance.

Depends on alot of factors. Are these people who should know better or are they people who were misinformed? Are they deliberately spitting on the Bible or were they brainwashed by people around them? As for people who deliberately spit on the word of God, Jesus reacted to a situation like that when he emphatically declared the following:

(John 8:24) Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”

Agreed on all.
I never judge a person's soul...that will be up to God.
Because a person cannot believe Jesus is God and is ignorant or has been brainwashed does not mean they are lost.

However, yes, everything else you've stated I've been feeling very strongly about.
The washing down of Christianity, etc.
Maybe because I hear too many odd ideas on these forums...

Anyway, yes,
thanks for the reply.

 

[synergy]

Agreed on all.
I never judge a person's soul...that will be up to God.
Because a person cannot believe Jesus is God and is ignorant or has been brainwashed does not mean they are lost.

However, yes, everything else you've stated I've been feeling very strongly about.
The washing down of Christianity, etc.
Maybe because I hear too many odd ideas on these forums...

Anyway, yes,
thanks for the reply.

I've debated @Pancho Frijoles long and hard. I have even pointed out to him how his guru Baha'u'llah attempted to usurp Jesus' 2nd coming by declaring himself as the 2nd coming of Christ. Imagine people giving their allegiance to imposters and charlatans like Baha'u'llah.. Well, you don't have to imagine it, they are actually doing it. I think Pancho has me on ignore because he can not stand that truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

I've debated @Pancho Frijoles long and hard. I have even pointed out to him how his guru Baha'u'llah attempted to usurp Jesus' 2nd coming by declaring himself as the 2nd coming of Christ. Imagine people giving their allegiance to imposters and charlatans like Baha'u'llah.. Well, you don't have to imagine it, they are actually doing it. I think Pancho has me on ignore because he can not stand that truth.

I must say that I'm a little familiar with his faith system and I'm surprised that he's taking such a strong stand.
Usually the Baha'i respect the religions of all persons (or I should say all religions) and he shouldn't really be trying to change what
ours teaches.

 

[Studyman]

I didn't acknowledge because I know FOR SURE that you're wrong.
Sorry 'bout that, I don't usually say this.


OK. So the point of the Abrahamic Covenant (actually there was more than one)
was:
In Abraham, God will bless all families on earth.

But if I ask God, "Why Abraham"?

Here is what God told me.

Gen. 26: 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This is the point of the entire Bible, Yes?

Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Through the revelation of the One True God through Abram...
all nations will come to know God.

Why "Thru Abram"?

Gal. 3: 6 Even as Abraham "believed God", "and it" (Abraham's Belief) was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the "children of Abraham".

Is this something that God ULTIMATELY did or that Abraham ultimately did?

God keeps all His Promises. He kept His Promise to "Abram", BECAUSE "Abram departed", "as the LORD had spoken unto him".

The implication and assumption of many "who call Jesus Lord, Lord", is that God chose Abram against his will or desire, and made him obey God giving Abram no choice or say in the matter, and then told Isaac that the promised blessing was and will be given "Because Abraham obeyed His Voice". He didn't say Abraham didn't have anything to do with God choosing him. You are implying that. "Many" who come in Christ's Name say that, but God never did.

God is the One who said the promises given "Through Abraham", were given "because" of what Abraham did.
I'm OK with that.

WHO kept the promise?
God or Abraham?

According to Scriptures, God kept His Promise of Blessings "through Abraham", "because" of what Abraham did.

Asked above....
Abraham obeyed God.
But HE did not keep the promise...
GOD did.

Yes, God is the Promise Giver in His agreement with Abraham. Abraham needed God, God didn't "need" Abraham.

The SEED of Abraham will bless all the nations of the world NOT ABRAHAM.
Abraham obeyed God...but God's Covenant would have been fulfilled even if Abraham did not obey...perhaps through someone else.

YES, YES, YES!!!!!! That is the entire point. Abraham's Family, Abraham's Children, those who do the "Works of Abraham", are blessed "BECAUSE" Abraham obeyed. Not the children of Amalek. Not the Children of Nahor, not the children of Haran. But the Children of Abraham "Because" that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws".

You are exactly right here. If Abraham hadn't "departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him", God's Promise would have been fulfilled through someone else. That is my entire point. God's covenant is an agreement between HIM and man. God's Part is non-negotiable. A man can either accept the terms of the agreement, and "Join himself to the Lord", as Abraham and Cornelious did. Or they can "Yield themselves" to another voice as Sodom and the Pharisees and the "Many" who called Jesus Lord, Lord in Matt. 7 did.

This is the same case as with MARY....
Mary said OK and she obeyed.
What if she didn't?
Would God not have sent us a Savior??

No doubt HE would. But don't forget, God knows the end from the beginning. So HE knew the choices Abraham and Mary would make from the foundation of the world. We don't know what we will do next week. But God does. That's why it is so important to listen to God and not all the other voices in the garden God placed us in.

In Genesis 26:5 we hear talk of LAND.
This is referring to the Covenants of LAND...

I think it's foolishness to suggest God's "Promised Land" is simply a piece of dirt somewhere on the planet earth.

IF you're interested...or anyone reading along...you could start with the following...
but it'll require MUCH MORE reading if you want to get to know the Covenants.


First, God made a covenant with Abraham and promised personal and national blessings for Abraham and his descendants and worldwide blessings through Abraham and his descendants.

Don't forget that the Jesus "of the Bible" said Abraham's Children are those who do the "Works" of Abraham. And Abraham "Lived by Every Word" that proceeded out of the mouth of God. And this same Jesus said that all men are to repent and become Abraham's Children. (Matt. 4:4)

Paul said Abraham Children are not based on DNA, but of the heart.

This was an unconditional and everlasting covenant, and God’s provisions would come to pass regardless of whether Abraham or the nation Israel kept the covenant.

Luke 13: 3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

The Biblical Covenants: Land, Davidic, and New

In the last post, the biblical theme of covenant was continued, and we considered the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants. It was discussed that after God created the nations, He chose one of those nati…

biblefanboy.com

I appreciate that you have found a website that supports your religious philosophy. There are "many" such websites to choose from, each one promoting a different religious philosophy depending on which religious sect or business of this world that promotes them.

I prefer to stick with the Scriptures, given all the warning of the Jesus "of the Bible" concerning religious men who come in His Name.

Nevertheless, it is good to discuss such matters.

 

[GodsGrace]

But if I ask God, "Why Abraham"?

Here is what God told me.

Gen. 26: 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This is the point of the entire Bible, Yes?

Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.



Why "Thru Abram"?

Gal. 3: 6 Even as Abraham "believed God", "and it" (Abraham's Belief) was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the "children of Abraham".


God keeps all His Promises. He kept His Promise to "Abram", BECAUSE "Abram departed", "as the LORD had spoken unto him".

The implication and assumption of many "who call Jesus Lord, Lord", is that God chose Abram against his will or desire, and made him obey God giving Abram no choice or say in the matter, and then told Isaac that the promised blessing was and will be given "Because Abraham obeyed His Voice". He didn't say Abraham didn't have anything to do with God choosing him. You are implying that. "Many" who come in Christ's Name say that, but God never did.

God is the One who said the promises given "Through Abraham", were given "because" of what Abraham did.
I'm OK with that.



According to Scriptures, God kept His Promise of Blessings "through Abraham", "because" of what Abraham did.



Yes, God is the Promise Giver in His agreement with Abraham. Abraham needed God, God didn't "need" Abraham.



YES, YES, YES!!!!!! That is the entire point. Abraham's Family, Abraham's Children, those who do the "Works of Abraham", are blessed "BECAUSE" Abraham obeyed. Not the children of Amalek. Not the Children of Nahor, not the children of Haran. But the Children of Abraham "Because" that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws".

You are exactly right here. If Abraham hadn't "departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him", God's Promise would have been fulfilled through someone else. That is my entire point. God's covenant is an agreement between HIM and man. God's Part is non-negotiable. A man can either accept the terms of the agreement, and "Join himself to the Lord", as Abraham and Cornelious did. Or they can "Yield themselves" to another voice as Sodom and the Pharisees and the "Many" who called Jesus Lord, Lord in Matt. 7 did.



No doubt HE would. But don't forget, God knows the end from the beginning. So HE knew the choices Abraham and Mary would make from the foundation of the world. We don't know what we will do next week. But God does. That's why it is so important to listen to God and not all the other voices in the garden God placed us in.



I think it's foolishness to suggest God's "Promised Land" is simply a piece of dirt somewhere on the planet earth.



Don't forget that the Jesus "of the Bible" said Abraham's Children are those who do the "Works" of Abraham. And Abraham "Lived by Every Word" that proceeded out of the mouth of God. And this same Jesus said that all men are to repent and become Abraham's Children. (Matt. 4:4)

Paul said Abraham Children are not based on DNA, but of the heart.



Luke 13: 3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.



I appreciate that you have found a website that supports your religious philosophy. There are "many" such websites to choose from, each one promoting a different religious philosophy depending on which religious sect or business of this world that promotes them.

I prefer to stick with the Scriptures, given all the warning of the Jesus "of the Bible" concerning religious men who come in His Name.

Nevertheless, it is good to discuss such matters.

I can't reply to the above S....sorry.
I don't have a website to support "my religious philosophy.
You haven't understood anything I've said and I'm not repeating it.

We're not discussing the bible here...
we were discussing THE COVENANTS.

It would be interesting, because of your comments, for YOU to post ANYthing at all stating
that the Abrahamic Covenant was BILATERAL AND CONDITIONAL.

But, you won't find ANYTHING that would state this because it's not true.

Plus, you're beginning to preach to me now about the land...so I guess this conversation is over.

I do want to say this before leaving this convo with you:
YOU do NOT understand Covenants.

Do a study and then come back... in a week, a month...however long it takes you...
and then we could discuss.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I must say that I'm a little familiar with his faith system and I'm surprised that he's taking such a strong stand.
Usually the Baha'i respect the religions of all persons (or I should say all religions) and he shouldn't really be trying to change what
ours teaches.

Hi, GodsGrace

Since you probably have not followed completely my participation in this Forum, I would like to share with you why I post what I post.

As a Baha'i I uphold the gospel of Christ as revealed by God. I believe each teaching of Jesus as taught by God Himself. I believe that rejecting Christ equals rejecting God, and obeying Christ equals obeying God. Whoever abides in Christ abides in God.

Certainly, I do not share all theological views with my Christians, Muslims, or Jews brothers and sisters... but even people within those religion communities do not agree among each other in many aspects.

My personal fight in this Forum is not against particular dogmas, but against considering the adherence to such particular dogmas a requisite for avoiding the eternal lake of fire and torment. That's the Cause I defend in this Forum, because it is a barrier to true unity in love.

I know you don't condemn people when they sincerely believe something different from what you believe. You are different from the many persons trapped by sectarianism who populate this Forum (and who are not representative of the mass of believers within their churches)

So, whenever you find me in this Forum posting an opinion on the Trinity, or the Penal Substitutionary Atonement, or physical resurrection of Jesus, it is not because I want people to reject those doctrines. It is because I want to fight the sectarism who DEMANDS from other people to believe those doctrines in order to escape the eternal torment of hell. Such demand begets division, despise and hatred. Not unity in love.

That's all, my sister.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi, GodsGrace

Since you probably have not followed completely my participation in this Forum, I would like to share with you why I post what I post.

You're right Pancho...I don't read every post on the threads to which I contribute.

As a Baha'i I uphold the gospel of Christ as revealed by God. I believe each teaching of Jesus as taught by God Himself. I believe that rejecting Christ equals rejecting God, and obeying Christ equals obeying God. Whoever abides in Christ abides in God.

Agreed that rejecting Christ is rejecting God...but in a way much deeper than you might believe.
Your faith believes anyone that rejects ANY of the illuminati of God will be rejecting God Himself since GOD sent them to man.
Please tell me if I'm mistaken.

Certainly, I do not share all theological views with my Christians, Muslims, or Jews brothers and sisters... but even people within those religion communities do not agree among each other in many aspects.

Well, this is all fine and good.
It matters not to me whether or not every Muslim agrees that the Qur'an had not been tampered with.
However, I'm sure there are some "theological views" to use your words , that they MUST agree on in order to be considered of that religion.

For we Christians the most important tenet is that JESUS IS GOD.

If someone does not accept this they are not Christian.
No matter what anyone believes...this is NOT A CHOICE.

My personal fight in this Forum is not against particular dogmas, but against considering the adherence to such particular dogmas a requisite for avoiding the eternal lake of fire and torment. That's the Cause I defend in this Forum, because it is a barrier to true unity in love.

Only God will determine the salvation of anyone's soul.
I'm not speaking to that.
A person may believe Jesus is not God and be saved and maybe I believe Jesus is God and I'm lost.
THIS concept would be the ONLY item of theology you could argue against....the fact that someone could not believe in the Divinity of Jesus and still be saved.

This is a most difficult topic because Jesus said that IF WE KNOW HIM, we MUST BELIEVE in HIM for our salvation.
But I'm not here to pass judgment.

As to unity in love....
You'll be having a difficult time with that.
I can't tell you how many Christians I know that believe that Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven and even if someone has
never even heard of Him...then they cannot go to heaven.

I know you don't condemn people when they sincerely believe something different from what you believe. You are different from the many persons trapped by sectarianism who populate this Forum (and who are not representative of the mass of believers within their churches)

What I'm saying is that this is not a battle you can fight or win.
Like I said...many believe that anyone that does not know Jesus will be lost....
not only the ones that reject Him...which would be the biblical method.

So, whenever you find me in this Forum posting an opinion on the Trinity, or the Penal Substitutionary Atonement, or physical resurrection of Jesus, it is not because I want people to reject those doctrines. It is because I want to fight the sectarism who DEMANDS from other people to believe those doctrines in order to escape the eternal torment of hell. Such demand begets division, despise and hatred. Not unity in love.

That's all, my sister.

OK...I understand you.
BUT
There are some doctrine that you cannot fight against.
The PSA can be discussed....no problem.
The physical resurrection of Jesus is problematic...
The Divinity of Jesus is a problem. (Trinity)

Now I understand your point here....
but few others will.
It sounds more like you're presenting a point of view...
that might be the problem.

Anyway,,,I appreciate your post and thank you for it.

 

[Studyman]

I can't reply to the above S....sorry.
I don't have a website to support "my religious philosophy.
You haven't understood anything I've said and I'm not repeating it.

I understand perfectly the philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting to others. It's a very popular philosophy promoted by this world's religious sects and businesses. What I am pointing out to you, is that the God inspired Holy Scriptures promotes a different teaching than you are, concerning Covenants. Not because of "my" words, but as shown to you, the Word's Inspired by God that I posted for your review and discussion.

You posted the teaching of a website called "Bible Fanboy" that you posted as support for your religious philosophy concerning the Covenant God made with Abraham.

From "Bible Fanboy";

"First, God made a covenant with Abraham and promised personal and national blessings for Abraham and his descendants and worldwide blessings through Abraham and his descendants. This was an unconditional and everlasting covenant, and God’s provisions would come to pass regardless of whether Abraham or the nation Israel kept the covenant."

But when a person reads what is actually written in Scriptures, this teaching cannot be supported.

If you asked God, "God, my Father, why did you choose Abraham and his descendants over Haran, or Nahor or Terah in which to enter into this everlasting covenant?

Here is what God tells you, "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws".

So the teaching of "Bible fanboy", that God made a covenant with Abraham "regardless of whether Abraham abided" by the terms of His Covenant, although perhaps popular for those who adopt "Bible fanboy" as their teacher, the Scriptures do not support the teaching.

That is the very reason for my replying in the first place.

We're not discussing the bible here...
we were discussing THE COVENANTS.

You are 1/2 true. You are not discussing the Bible here, you are promoting the teaching of a web site called "Bible Fanboy". as its teaching pertains to the Covenant God made with Abraham. I am discussing the Bible here, as it's teaching pertains to the Covenant God made with Abraham.

It would be interesting, because of your comments, for YOU to post ANYthing at all stating
that the Abrahamic Covenant was BILATERAL AND CONDITIONAL.

My posts reflect what the Holy Scriptures teach, posting them verbatim. The words "unilateral/bilateral Covenant" is a product of this world's religious system. It is not found anywhere in the bible.

God said He entered into a Covenant with Abraham, "Because" Abraham obeyed. "Bible Fanboy" promotes a different philosophy. You are free to, as Paul teaches, "Yield yourself" to the words of whomever you want.

I am simply pointing out why "GOD" said HE chose Abraham.

But, you won't find ANYTHING that would state this because it's not true.

Certainly not in the website called "Bible fanboy". But it's all over in the God Inspired Scriptures.

19 For I know him (Abraham), that he will command his children and his household after him, and "they shall keep" the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; "that the" LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

The Jesus "of the Bible" said the Children of Abraham are those who "Do the Works" of Abraham.

"Bible fanboy" teaches that God "WILL" bring upon Abraham that which was spoken unto him, "REGARDLESS" of whether Abraham obeyed God's instruction or not. The Bible simply doesn't support this popular religious philosophy promoted by "Many", who call Jesus Lord, Lord in this world God placed you and I in.

I am simply advocating that a person "Believes" God over the other voices in the garden God placed us in.

Plus, you're beginning to preach to me now about the land...so I guess this conversation is over.

I simply said "I think it's foolishness to suggest God's "Promised Land" is simply a piece of dirt somewhere on the planet earth".

I'm happy to discuss the Scriptures with you concerning the meaning of "Promised Land". I wasn't preaching to you, I was sharing my thoughts concerning the Spiritual meaning of "Promised Land" and that it doesn't mean, in my understanding, a piece of dirt on a planet that will come to an end, in favor of a New Earth and a New Heaven.

If you are uncomfortable discussing Scriptures as it pertains to this topic, I'm fine with that.

I do want to say this before leaving this convo with you:
YOU do NOT understand Covenants.

Perhaps. But I do understand that the teaching of "Bible Fanboy" that you posted, and what the Scriptures actually say regarding God's Covenant with Abraham, are two completely different things as I have demonstrated through God's Inspired Words.

Do a study and then come back... in a week, a month...however long it takes you...
and then we could discuss.

I'm not interested in the teaching of "Bible Fanboy" and will not adopt its teaching. And I have already studied the Holy Scriptures concerning God's Covenant with Abraham, and have posted some of God's Words, not all, that pertains to it, for your review and discussion.

Who knows if maybe you might become interested in why "God said" HE entered into a Covenant with Abraham. It is my hope that you will.

Nevertheless, thank you for the discussion such as it was.

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand perfectly the philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting to others. It's a very popular philosophy promoted by this world's religious sects and businesses. What I am pointing out to you, is that the God inspired Holy Scriptures promotes a different teaching than you are, concerning Covenants. Not because of "my" words, but as shown to you, the Word's Inspired by God that I posted for your review and discussion.

You posted the teaching of a website called "Bible Fanboy" that you posted as support for your religious philosophy concerning the Covenant God made with Abraham.

From "Bible Fanboy";

"First, God made a covenant with Abraham and promised personal and national blessings for Abraham and his descendants and worldwide blessings through Abraham and his descendants. This was an unconditional and everlasting covenant, and God’s provisions would come to pass regardless of whether Abraham or the nation Israel kept the covenant."

But when a person reads what is actually written in Scriptures, this teaching cannot be supported.

If you asked God, "God, my Father, why did you choose Abraham and his descendants over Haran, or Nahor or Terah in which to enter into this everlasting covenant?

Here is what God tells you, "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws".

So the teaching of "Bible fanboy", that God made a covenant with Abraham "regardless of whether Abraham abided" by the terms of His Covenant, although perhaps popular for those who adopt "Bible fanboy" as their teacher, the Scriptures do not support the teaching.

That is the very reason for my replying in the first place.




You are 1/2 true. You are not discussing the Bible here, you are promoting the teaching of a web site called "Bible Fanboy". as its teaching pertains to the Covenant God made with Abraham. I am discussing the Bible here, as it's teaching pertains to the Covenant God made with Abraham.



My posts reflect what the Holy Scriptures teach, posting them verbatim. The words "unilateral/bilateral Covenant" is a product of this world's religious system. It is not found anywhere in the bible.

God said He entered into a Covenant with Abraham, "Because" Abraham obeyed. "Bible Fanboy" promotes a different philosophy. You are free to, as Paul teaches, "Yield yourself" to the words of whomever you want.

I am simply pointing out why "GOD" said HE chose Abraham.



Certainly not in the website called "Bible fanboy". But it's all over in the God Inspired Scriptures.

19 For I know him (Abraham), that he will command his children and his household after him, and "they shall keep" the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; "that the" LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

The Jesus "of the Bible" said the Children of Abraham are those who "Do the Works" of Abraham.

"Bible fanboy" teaches that God "WILL" bring upon Abraham that which was spoken unto him, "REGARDLESS" of whether Abraham obeyed God's instruction or not. The Bible simply doesn't support this popular religious philosophy promoted by "Many", who call Jesus Lord, Lord in this world God placed you and I in.

I am simply advocating that a person "Believes" God over the other voices in the garden God placed us in.



I simply said "I think it's foolishness to suggest God's "Promised Land" is simply a piece of dirt somewhere on the planet earth".

I'm happy to discuss the Scriptures with you concerning the meaning of "Promised Land". I wasn't preaching to you, I was sharing my thoughts concerning the Spiritual meaning of "Promised Land" and that it doesn't mean, in my understanding, a piece of dirt on a planet that will come to an end, in favor of a New Earth and a New Heaven.

If you are uncomfortable discussing Scriptures as it pertains to this topic, I'm fine with that.


Perhaps. But I do understand that the teaching of "Bible Fanboy" that you posted, and what the Scriptures actually say regarding God's Covenant with Abraham, are two completely different things as I have demonstrated through God's Inspired Words.


I'm not interested in the teaching of "Bible Fanboy" and will not adopt its teaching. And I have already studied the Holy Scriptures concerning God's Covenant with Abraham, and have posted some of God's Words, not all, that pertains to it, for your review and discussion.

Who knows if maybe you might become interested in why "God said" HE entered into a Covenant with Abraham. It is my hope that you will.

Nevertheless, thank you for the discussion such as it was.

I don't know what fanboy is Studyman.
I learned the Covenants for a church because I had to then teach them.
It took me A LOT OF TIME AND READING and I don't mean the bible although they certainly have
to align with the bible.

Here's the deal Studyman...
I'm not going to debate with you whether or not water is wet.

I didn't even read your entire post because it sounds a bit personal and I'd like to keep
a good rapport with you so we could discuss other matters with love.

Just the comment about a Land Covenant - of which there is more than one - assigning to ME that I think it's about A PIECE OF DIRT SOMEWHERE ON THE PLANET shows, excuse me, your extreme ignorance on this matter of Covenants.

So I'll end it here.
Believe what you will
It matters not to me.

 

[Studyman]

I don't know what fanboy is Studyman.

My apologies. I just assumed that you would know whose sermons you were quoting, and whose website you posted in support of your philosophy concerning Covenants.

God's Grace Said;

IF you're interested...or anyone reading along...you could start with the following...
but it'll require MUCH MORE reading if you want to get to know the Covenants.


First, God made a covenant with Abraham and promised personal and national blessings for Abraham and his descendants and worldwide blessings through Abraham and his descendants. This was an unconditional and everlasting covenant, and God’s provisions would come to pass regardless of whether Abraham or the nation Israel kept the covenant.

The Biblical Covenants: Land, Davidic, and New​

In the last post, the biblical theme of covenant was continued, and we considered the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants. It was discussed that after God created the nations, He chose one of those nati…

biblefanboy.com

 

[GodsGrace]

My apologies. I just assumed that you would know whose sermons you were quoting, and whose website you posted in support of your philosophy concerning Covenants.

No problem Studyman.
I studied hard to learn the Covenants and did not learn from a blog.
However, there will surely be blogs on this topic.

I checked out the link you posted and went through two of the Covenants quickly and he does correctly state what type of Covenants they are and the conditions...

I can't remember why I posted re the Land Covenants....there was more than 1...
I remember that we were discussing the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenant.
I looked at the Abrahamic and he correctly stated its type: he wrote:

First, God made a covenant with Abraham and promised personal and national blessings for Abraham and his descendants and worldwide blessings through Abraham and his descendants. This was an unconditional and everlasting covenant, and God’s provisions would come to pass regardless of whether Abraham or the nation Israel kept the covenant.

In contrast, God later made a conditional covenant with Israel through Moses. The Mosaic Covenant was meant to help the nation Israel be a nation that would bring God’s glory to all nations through holy living. If the Jews obeyed God’s commands, He would bless them; if they disobeyed His commands, He would punish them.

I'd have to read everything and will not do so,,,but the above is correct.

The Abrahamic Covenant was
UNCONDITIONAL
UNILATERAL
There were no conditions on Abraham (Abraham leaving UR was NOT a condition).
This Covenant was going to be fulfilled whether or not Abraham was able to obey. God meant to save all nations.
THE SIGN: CIRCUMCISION

The Mosaic Covenant was
CONDITIONAL on the obedience of the Israelites. God needed an obedient people from whom to reveal Himself.
BILATERAL the Israelites had to agree to obey God. They did not,,,thus the curses. Bilateral Covenants had blessing and curses.
THE SIGN: THE SABBATH

There are many Covenants and each one must be studied on its own.

Interesting also are the.

EDENIC COVENANT
CONDITIONAL
BILATERAL
God gave conditions to Adam.
He broke them...thus the curses in Genesis 3.

ADAMIC COVENANT
UNCONDITIONAL
UNILATERAL
God did everything...man needed salvation and could not save himself. No conditions on man.

(many get the Edenic and the Adamic Covenants mixed up).

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It's been a while since @JoshebB does not post.
If you are reading us, Josheb please pick the topic again where you left it.
I'm learning from this thread.

Otherwise, @GodsGrace, if you like to continue the thread, I would be grateful.
One aspect that you perhaps have not touched is the salvific aspect of each covenant.

Thanks in advance.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's been a while since @JoshebB does not post.
If you are reading us, Josheb please pick the topic again where you left it.
I'm learning from this thread.

Otherwise, @GodsGrace, if you like to continue the thread, I would be grateful.
One aspect that you perhaps have not touched is the salvific aspect of each covenant.

Thanks in advance.

Hi Pancho
Everything in the bible is for our salvation.

The Covenants were more to show the relationships that God had with His people...mankind...starting from the very beginning.
After the fall,,,after the Edenic Covenant...every Covenant was for the benefit of mankind...to teach mankind what God wants from us and what He was willing to do for us.

For instance...the Abrahamic Covenant was to give salvation to all the nations.
The Davidic Covenant was to show that a King forever would come to mankind....Jesus.
The New Covenant was God's ultimate offer to mankind...there will be no more after this one.

I'm not 100% sure of what you are asking....

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Hi Pancho
Everything in the bible is for our salvation.

The Covenants were more to show the relationships that God had with His people...mankind...starting from the very beginning.
After the fall,,,after the Edenic Covenant...every Covenant was for the benefit of mankind...to teach mankind what God wants from us and what He was willing to do for us.

For instance...the Abrahamic Covenant was to give salvation to all the nations.
The Davidic Covenant was to show that a King forever would come to mankind....Jesus.
The New Covenant was God's ultimate offer to mankind...there will be no more after this one.

I'm not 100% sure of what you are asking....

Actually I share your view that every kind of covenant ends up having a salvific purpose: either to initiate something, continue something, restate something, or symbolize something related to our spiritual connection (or re-connection) with God.

I don't know whether @JoshebB had something else in mind when he named the thread "The Covenant Context of Salvation". Let's wait.

 

[JoshebB]

I agree 100% with all of this.
So let me state it again: God is the one who initiates it, sets the terms, identifies/select the participants and gives the commands. There is no negotiation with men about this.

.....AND the participants in the covenant are not given any choices until after their inclusion into the covenant has already been established. Yes?

 

[civic]

Neither @JoshebB nor me are discussing the deity of Christ here, my sister.
It is our brother @TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY who mentioned this off topic. I don’t know why. We have plenty of threads to discuss that subject.

I agree let’s keep this on topic of the OP’s discussion @Administrator . Thanks

 

[JoshebB]

It must be evident for you, my friend, that you represent only one of the many variants in which Christians understand this and other topics.

Irrelevant.

The one common authority we all (should) submit to is scripture. I have not appealed to a single extra-biblical doctrine or source other than the Bible. The rules of sound exegesis are well established and have been practiced for two millennia. Any perspective or position can be examined and critiqued by how well it adheres to these two conditions or methods. That is why I have repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, couched my posts in the precedent clearly established in scripture and fielded all inquiries and comments with the same. Abraham was asked to make a choice, but it was not until after his inclusion into the covenant. Israel was asked to make a choice, but it was only after the covenant was established.

So, I respectfully invite you to exercise care in not putting yourself in the position of spokesman for Christians by saying "we Christians".

Red herring. That never happened. If I point to scripture and EVERYONE can objectively verify what it explicitly states and what it clearly reports then our consensus is with God, not each other. I do not care whether anyone here agrees with my posts. Every single individual hear has complete liberty to look at the text of scripture and deny what is stated, even if they acknowledge what is, in fact, stated.

And the facts in evidence so far is that God initiates the covenant, chooses its participants, calls them, commands them as if they are included without alternative and commands them only after all of those conditions are established. ALL of it is done without ever asking anyone if they want any of it and the respondents to this op have had 5 weeks and fifteen pages worth of posts to prove that incorrect.

I know. Please enumerate the salvific covenants that you would like to cover in this thread, so that we concentrate on them.

Already done. The op specifies the criteria this op is solely about the covenant context of salvation. Salvation from sin never occurs apart from Jesus, the anointed one of God, and it always occurs within a covenant established by God thereof. Not only can someone NOT be saved from sin apart from Jesus, but they cannot be saved apart from a God-initiated, God-established covenant relationship in Christ.


I will entertain a digression for one post: Can you provide me with a formal doctrinal statement from an orthodox Christian denomination or sect (not a cult) asserting salvation from sin is possible apart from Jesus Christ? Just name the denomination/sect and link me to their statement of faith or formal doctrine (either Christological or soteriological).

 

[Administrator]

I agree let’s keep this on topic of the OP’s discussion @Administrator . Thanks

Works for me. Let's all enjoy discussing the word of God an His salvation.

 

[JoshebB]

bro , i just looked up the BAHI faith . You aint kidding its total bad news .
Progressive revelations of GOD . YEAH right . That man needs to seriously repent of that entire deadly mess .

Yes , but let us all abide by the forum's tos and the directives of scripture concerning how we present ourselves to others.

Colossians 4:5-6
Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

Ephesians 4:25-32
Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another............ Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Romans 12:17-21 ESV
Repay no one evil for evil but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil but overcome evil with good.


That part about heaping burning coals is an ancient idiom that means "rekindle their warmth and sustenance," or more simply: be kind and meet their need. I am not above telling a fool s/he is going to hell (I don not take kindly to LDS coming to my home to tell me lies) but that's a good way to get kicked out of a forum for a few days (or more ).

Romans 13:8
Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

@Pancho Frijoles has always been commendably well-mannered and respectful with me, and he knows where I stand on Bahai'i. We try to set an example for others showing disagreement can be handled with manners and respect.

 

[JoshebB]

I don't understand what you mean J.... We're discussing the Mosaic Covenant here.

No, we're not. Re-read the op.