The Conflation of the Calvinist

[civic]

THE CONFLATION OF THE CALVINIST

In my reading of a book critique (written by Calvinistic scholar Broughton Knox in reply to an Arminian scholar Howard Marshall) I happened upon another prime example of the Calvinistic conflation that we have discussed a number of times. Knox wrote:

“The Pelagian mind is inclined to ascribe, shall we say, 5% to God and 95% to man, the semi-Pelagian 50%-50%, while the evangelical Arminian, such as our writer, 95% to God and 5% to man. Yet, after all, it is this last 5% which makes the difference between heaven and hell, so that man is, in the end, his own saviour.”

I must ask this vital question: What exactly are these percentages representing? We (non-Calvinistic “pelagians”) are ascribing 95% OF WHAT to God?

95% of man’s desires?

95% of man’s sin?

95% of man’s choices?

95% of Christ’s provision of atonement?

95% of salvation?

95% of WHAT!?!

It seems to me that in the well-meant effort of the Calvinist to ascribe all good things to God they have unintentionally also ascribed all bad things to Him. So, while the Calvinist seems most concerned with making sure mankind takes no credit for their salvation, the non-Calvinist seems more concerned with a recognizably good and Holy God. I suspect both men have a noble purpose in their pursuits, but as with most disputes the balance is somewhere in the middle.

But this balance cannot be seen in dividing vaguely defined percentages of what is to be ascribed to God and to man. Salvation is 100% of God. Merely affirming the responsibility of mankind to accept and/or reject God’s appeals for reconciliation does not in any way affect that percentage.

Only when a Calvinist, like Knox in the quote above, conflates man’s choice to humbly repent in faith with God’s choice to save whosoever does so are these types of dilemmas created. In other words, Calvinists have created a dilemma by conflating two choices as if they were one and calling them both “salvation.”

For instance, the prodigal son’s choice to return home is distinct from the father’s choice to redeem him once he arrives. To treat those two distinct choices as if they were one in the same [i.e. under the meticulous control of the father] creates an unnecessary dilemma.

Likewise, a sinner’s choice to repent in response to God’s appeals for reconciliation is distinct from God’s choice to provide those means of reconciliation through Christ’s blood. Thus, God is always the decisive cause of who He saves and the means by which He saves them. And mankind is the decisive cause of his own sin and his choice to repent of it. Only by conflating these two distinct choices is the Calvinistic dilemma really a dilemma at all. Flowers

God is 100% responsible for his choices.

Man is 100% responsible for his choices.

There is no dilemma here.

 

[Rockson]

It seems to me that in the well-meant effort of the Calvinist to ascribe all good things to God they have unintentionally also ascribed all bad things to Him.

There is something which seems appealing to some about Calvinism is that it has the appearance of showing great humility to God. If God does everything and he controls every action how is that not showing as great an honor as we could possibly give him by acknowledging such?

Thing is though God does NOT do everything nor does he control every action and while they've sought to be sincere they are sincerely wrong. Some of them have meant well but it's a zeal to God not according to knowledge.

 

[Rockson]

Only when a Calvinist, like Knox in the quote above, conflates man’s choice to humbly repent in faith with God’s choice to save whosoever does so are these types of dilemmas created. In other words, Calvinists have created a dilemma by conflating two choices as if they were one and calling them both “salvation.”

I think of it like the Coast Guard going out into the ocean to save lives. They get out there and throw a ringer float to one who is drowning. Then they bring them on board the boat. If a Calvinist was one such one saved once they get to shore if the media asked them who saved them, I'll tell you what they don't say....they don't say, the Coast Guard did and I did after all I grabbed the float!

They'd never dishonor the one who saved their life that way by attributing they technically had something to do with it even though in one sense they did. God does 100% of the saving but we have to cooperate with him.

 

[Joe]

THE CONFLATION OF THE CALVINIST

In my reading of a book critique (written by Calvinistic scholar Broughton Knox in reply to an Arminian scholar Howard Marshall) I happened upon another prime example of the Calvinistic conflation that we have discussed a number of times. Knox wrote:

“The Pelagian mind is inclined to ascribe, shall we say, 5% to God and 95% to man, the semi-Pelagian 50%-50%, while the evangelical Arminian, such as our writer, 95% to God and 5% to man. Yet, after all, it is this last 5% which makes the difference between heaven and hell, so that man is, in the end, his own saviour.”

I must ask this vital question: What exactly are these percentages representing? We (non-Calvinistic “pelagians”) are ascribing 95% OF WHAT to God?

95% of man’s desires?

95% of man’s sin?

95% of man’s choices?

95% of Christ’s provision of atonement?

95% of salvation?

95% of WHAT!?!

It seems to me that in the well-meant effort of the Calvinist to ascribe all good things to God they have unintentionally also ascribed all bad things to Him. So, while the Calvinist seems most concerned with making sure mankind takes no credit for their salvation, the non-Calvinist seems more concerned with a recognizably good and Holy God. I suspect both men have a noble purpose in their pursuits, but as with most disputes the balance is somewhere in the middle.

But this balance cannot be seen in dividing vaguely defined percentages of what is to be ascribed to God and to man. Salvation is 100% of God. Merely affirming the responsibility of mankind to accept and/or reject God’s appeals for reconciliation does not in any way affect that percentage.

Only when a Calvinist, like Knox in the quote above, conflates man’s choice to humbly repent in faith with God’s choice to save whosoever does so are these types of dilemmas created. In other words, Calvinists have created a dilemma by conflating two choices as if they were one and calling them both “salvation.”

For instance, the prodigal son’s choice to return home is distinct from the father’s choice to redeem him once he arrives. To treat those two distinct choices as if they were one in the same [i.e. under the meticulous control of the father] creates an unnecessary dilemma.

Likewise, a sinner’s choice to repent in response to God’s appeals for reconciliation is distinct from God’s choice to provide those means of reconciliation through Christ’s blood. Thus, God is always the decisive cause of who He saves and the means by which He saves them. And mankind is the decisive cause of his own sin and his choice to repent of it. Only by conflating these two distinct choices is the Calvinistic dilemma really a dilemma at all. Flowers

God is 100% responsible for his choices.

Man is 100% responsible for his choices.

There is no dilemma here.

I agree.

Repentance is an act of the will based upon a thoughtful decision to turn to the Lord and away from one's self.

Having faith in Jesus Christ is to cry out to Him to save you.

Neither one of these is performed by the Lord but by the individual. And neither one of these are self induced, but are a result of God's workings.

This does not mean a person cannot resist God, for it is quite obvious we all do. And it is also obvious from the bible that God wants all to be saved. A person will either obey God by faith or not. Jesus addressed the judgment in His talk with Nicodemus, "This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.” (John 3:19-21)

Notice the bold words above. These are clearly actions of man's will; doesn't come into the light and does the truth and comes into the light.

In my past experience, Calvinists want to dodge this simple and apparent fact by rhetoric and accusations of works. They are of course wrong in their accusations, not really knowing what God demands from a man in the New Covenant.

God does not repent for man neither believes for a man; these are the standards God established in the New Covenant whereby He declares one to be in conformity to His covenant when one obeys Him. This means one is declared righteous by God; being justified-declared to be in conformity with Him when one repents and believes, as He has stipulated.

Works salvation is deciding not to repent or believe in Jesus Christ, but to earn one's salvation by other means than faith in Jesus Christ. This subverts God's established standards, which the Jewish people of Jesus' day has done. They were rejected and became vessels of dishonor for their rejection of God's way to justify them.

The Gospel of God is to repent and believe in Jesus Christ. Without doing either one of these, a person will not be saved.

God Bless

 

[civic]

I agree.

Repentance is an act of the will based upon a thoughtful decision to turn to the Lord and away from one's self.

Having faith in Jesus Christ is to cry out to Him to save you.

Neither one of these is performed by the Lord but by the individual. And neither one of these are self induced, but are a result of God's workings.

This does not mean a person cannot resist God, for it is quite obvious we all do. And it is also obvious from the bible that God wants all to be saved. A person will either obey God by faith or not. Jesus addressed the judgment in His talk with Nicodemus, "This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.” (John 3:19-21)

Notice the bold words above. These are clearly actions of man's will; doesn't come into the light and does the truth and comes into the light.

In my past experience, Calvinists want to dodge this simple and apparent fact by rhetoric and accusations of works. They are of course wrong in their accusations, not really knowing what God demands from a man in the New Covenant.

God does not repent for man neither believes for a man; these are the standards God established in the New Covenant whereby He declares one to be in conformity to His covenant when one obeys Him. This means one is declared righteous by God; being justified-declared to be in conformity with Him when one repents and believes, as He has stipulated.

Works salvation is deciding not to repent or believe in Jesus Christ, but to earn one's salvation by other means than faith in Jesus Christ. This subverts God's established standards, which the Jewish people of Jesus' day has done. They were rejected and became vessels of dishonor for their rejection of God's way to justify them.

The Gospel of God is to repent and believe in Jesus Christ. Without doing either one of these, a person will not be saved.

God Bless

Amen brother

 

[Presby02]

THE CONFLATION OF THE CALVINIST

In my reading of a book critique (written by Calvinistic scholar Broughton Knox in reply to an Arminian scholar Howard Marshall) I happened upon another prime example of the Calvinistic conflation that we have discussed a number of times. Knox wrote:

“The Pelagian mind is inclined to ascribe, shall we say, 5% to God and 95% to man, the semi-Pelagian 50%-50%, while the evangelical Arminian, such as our writer, 95% to God and 5% to man. Yet, after all, it is this last 5% which makes the difference between heaven and hell, so that man is, in the end, his own saviour.”

I must ask this vital question: What exactly are these percentages representing? We (non-Calvinistic “pelagians”) are ascribing 95% OF WHAT to God?

95% of man’s desires?

95% of man’s sin?

95% of man’s choices?

95% of Christ’s provision of atonement?

95% of salvation?

95% of WHAT!?!

It seems to me that in the well-meant effort of the Calvinist to ascribe all good things to God they have unintentionally also ascribed all bad things to Him. So, while the Calvinist seems most concerned with making sure mankind takes no credit for their salvation, the non-Calvinist seems more concerned with a recognizably good and Holy God. I suspect both men have a noble purpose in their pursuits, but as with most disputes the balance is somewhere in the middle.

But this balance cannot be seen in dividing vaguely defined percentages of what is to be ascribed to God and to man. Salvation is 100% of God. Merely affirming the responsibility of mankind to accept and/or reject God’s appeals for reconciliation does not in any way affect that percentage.

Only when a Calvinist, like Knox in the quote above, conflates man’s choice to humbly repent in faith with God’s choice to save whosoever does so are these types of dilemmas created. In other words, Calvinists have created a dilemma by conflating two choices as if they were one and calling them both “salvation.”

For instance, the prodigal son’s choice to return home is distinct from the father’s choice to redeem him once he arrives. To treat those two distinct choices as if they were one in the same [i.e. under the meticulous control of the father] creates an unnecessary dilemma.

Likewise, a sinner’s choice to repent in response to God’s appeals for reconciliation is distinct from God’s choice to provide those means of reconciliation through Christ’s blood. Thus, God is always the decisive cause of who He saves and the means by which He saves them. And mankind is the decisive cause of his own sin and his choice to repent of it. Only by conflating these two distinct choices is the Calvinistic dilemma really a dilemma at all. Flowers

God is 100% responsible for his choices.

Man is 100% responsible for his choices.

There is no dilemma here.

Who is God responsible to? LOL

 

[Behold]

There is repentance from sin and there is repentance from UNBELIEF.

Its the repenting or turning= from "unbelief" = that is the repentance that God is looking for, as that is to turn (repent) from Unbelief, to FAITH in Christ.

Whereas repenting from sin, is simply that., and nothing else.
Unbelievers do it everything they are caught.

 

[civic]

I think of it like the Coast Guard going out into the ocean to save lives. They get out there and throw a ringer float to one who is drowning. Then they bring them on board the boat. If a Calvinist was one such one saved once they get to shore if the media asked them who saved them, I'll tell you what they don't say....they don't say, the Coast Guard did and I did after all I grabbed the float!

They'd never dishonor the one who saved their life that way by attributing they technically had something to do with it even though in one sense they did. God does 100% of the saving but we have to cooperate with him.

ditto

 

[Joe]

Who is God responsible to? LOL

As stated above, "In my past experience, Calvinists want to dodge this simple and apparent fact by rhetoric and accusations of works."

You have resorted to rhetoric to dodge the truth that man must repent and believe. "Neither one of these is performed by the Lord but by the individual. And neither one of these are self induced, but are a result of God's workings."

Repentance and living by faith in Jesus Christ "are the standards God established in the New Covenant whereby He declares one to be in conformity to His covenant when one obeys Him. This means one is declared righteous by God; being justified-declared to be in conformity with Him when one repents and believes, as He has stipulated.

Works salvation is deciding not to repent or believe in Jesus Christ, but to earn one's salvation by other means than faith in Jesus Christ. This subverts God's established standards, which the Jewish people of Jesus' day has done."

“Let all the house of Israel therefore know certainly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:36-38)

What action did the Jewish people need to do to be saved? Peter told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Then they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Calvinism/reformed insist one must have the Holy Spirit first to believe and repent, but clearly in the actual account of Acts the reception of the Holy Spirit is after repentance and faith.

So, what did it take for them to repent and believe? Hearing the Word of God preached and being deeply convicted by it, they sought to know what course of action they must take to be forgiven-saved.

When is the Holy Spirit given to a person? Peter said it is after repentance, faith, and the forgiveness of sins; this is very clear that it is senseless to even debate the fact.

God has made man responsible for his actions, to repent and believe Him or not. That is why there is a judgement; to judge each man of his actions.

"(God) who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath and indignation, oppression and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. But glory, honor, and peace go to every man who does good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God." (Rom 2:6-11)

God Bless

 

[civic]

As stated above, "In my past experience, Calvinists want to dodge this simple and apparent fact by rhetoric and accusations of works."

You have resorted to rhetoric to dodge the truth that man must repent and believe. "Neither one of these is performed by the Lord but by the individual. And neither one of these are self induced, but are a result of God's workings."

Repentance and living by faith in Jesus Christ "are the standards God established in the New Covenant whereby He declares one to be in conformity to His covenant when one obeys Him. This means one is declared righteous by God; being justified-declared to be in conformity with Him when one repents and believes, as He has stipulated.

Works salvation is deciding not to repent or believe in Jesus Christ, but to earn one's salvation by other means than faith in Jesus Christ. This subverts God's established standards, which the Jewish people of Jesus' day has done."

“Let all the house of Israel therefore know certainly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:36-38)

What action did the Jewish people need to do to be saved? Peter told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Then they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Calvinism/reformed insist one must have the Holy Spirit first to believe and repent, but clearly in the actual account of Acts the reception of the Holy Spirit is after repentance and faith.

So, what did it take for them to repent and believe? Hearing the Word of God preached and being deeply convicted by it, they sought to know what course of action they must take to be forgiven-saved.

When is the Holy Spirit given to a person? Peter said it is after repentance, faith, and the forgiveness of sins; this is very clear that it is senseless to even debate the fact.

God has made man responsible for his actions, to repent and believe Him or not. That is why there is a judgement; to judge each man of his actions.

"(God) who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath and indignation, oppression and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. But glory, honor, and peace go to every man who does good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God." (Rom 2:6-11)

God Bless

spot on brother !!!

 

[Presby02]

As stated above, "In my past experience, Calvinists want to dodge this simple and apparent fact by rhetoric and accusations of works."

You have resorted to rhetoric to dodge the truth that man must repent and believe. "Neither one of these is performed by the Lord but by the individual. And neither one of these are self induced, but are a result of God's workings."

Repentance and living by faith in Jesus Christ "are the standards God established in the New Covenant whereby He declares one to be in conformity to His covenant when one obeys Him. This means one is declared righteous by God; being justified-declared to be in conformity with Him when one repents and believes, as He has stipulated.

Works salvation is deciding not to repent or believe in Jesus Christ, but to earn one's salvation by other means than faith in Jesus Christ. This subverts God's established standards, which the Jewish people of Jesus' day has done."

“Let all the house of Israel therefore know certainly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:36-38)

What action did the Jewish people need to do to be saved? Peter told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Then they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Calvinism/reformed insist one must have the Holy Spirit first to believe and repent, but clearly in the actual account of Acts the reception of the Holy Spirit is after repentance and faith.

So, what did it take for them to repent and believe? Hearing the Word of God preached and being deeply convicted by it, they sought to know what course of action they must take to be forgiven-saved.

When is the Holy Spirit given to a person? Peter said it is after repentance, faith, and the forgiveness of sins; this is very clear that it is senseless to even debate the fact.

God has made man responsible for his actions, to repent and believe Him or not. That is why there is a judgement; to judge each man of his actions.

"(God) who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath and indignation, oppression and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. But glory, honor, and peace go to every man who does good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God." (Rom 2:6-11)

God Bless

1) no one said does not have to repent and believe.

2)the Bible is quite clear, no one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit.

3)no one said man is not responsible.

Your post is littered with strawman.

Lastly, how does this address my question of who God is responsible to?

 

[Joe]

1) no one said does not have to repent and believe.

I never said anyone did. I am pointing out a conundrum of Calvinism that natural-unregenerate man is not a determining factor in his salvation and yet biblically he is.

2)the Bible is quite clear, no one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit.

And that is why the Lord spoke about the coming of the Holy Spirit and His work within mankind in John 16:8-11, as recorded upon His coming in Acts. And yet people can, do, and have resisted the Holy Spirit like the Jewish people of our Lord's day and brought God's anger upon them. Some of them were committing the unforgivable sin of equating the workings of the Holy Spirit through our Lord as Satan's.

Peter's Spirit filled message and instructions to be saved was very clear to the Jewish listeners.

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:36-38)

What action did the Jewish people need to do to be saved? Peter told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Then they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Calvinism/reformed insist one must have the Holy Spirit first to believe and repent, but clearly in the actual account of Acts the reception of the Holy Spirit is after repentance and faith.

So, what did it take for them to repent and believe? Hearing the Word of God preached and being deeply convicted by it, they sought to know what course of action they must take to be forgiven-saved.

To see this and deny it means you do not want to see it, but to stay in the darkness of Calvinism.

3)no one said man is not responsible.

I never said anyone did. I am only pointing out that man is fully engaged in his salvation from God, before receiving the Holy Spirit. Something Calvinists refuse, as they get the cart in front of the horse that man must first receive the Holy Spirit and then repent and believe.

So which is it? Does man first repent and believe and then receive the Holy Spirit? Or is Peter wrong that they first must receive the Holy Spirit so they can repent and believe?

Does God command men everywhere to repent? Is it a hollow command that cannot be fulfilled? Or is God commanding men to do something that is within their capacity now that He has reconciled the world to Himself not counting men's sins against them?

If not within their capacity, then why did God send His own Son to die for the sins of everyone and yet not be genuine in His Word through His Son that He loves the world and gave His Son for us?

Your post is littered with strawman.

Rhetoric again unfortunately.

Lastly, how does this address my question of who God is responsible to?

Your question was rhetorical. You know as well as I that God answers to know one but Himself, and since He has given us a testimony of His character, we should believe it and not discount it for a theory that makes a mockery of God. Yes, Calvinism makes a mockery of God. It is a religion of man packaged in such a way for man to say how God is instead of listening to God Himself.

Want proof? What comes first, man hearing, being convicted, repenting and placing faith in Jesus Christ and then receiving the Holy Spirit-new life (regeneration) from Jesus Christ? Or man being given the new life from Christ of the Spirit (regeneration) and then repenting and placing faith in Jesus Christ?

I refer to the account of Acts where only repentant believers of Jesus Christ received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the unrepentant unbelievers were instructed on what they needed to do to receive this eternal life changing gift.

God Bless

 

[Presby02]

I never said anyone did. I am pointing out a conundrum of Calvinism that natural-unregenerate man is not a determining factor in his salvation and yet biblically he is.

And that is why the Lord spoke about the coming of the Holy Spirit and His work within mankind in John 16:8-11, as recorded upon His coming in Acts. And yet people can, do, and have resisted the Holy Spirit like the Jewish people of our Lord's day and brought God's anger upon them. Some of them were committing the unforgivable sin of equating the workings of the Holy Spirit through our Lord as Satan's.

Peter's Spirit filled message and instructions to be saved was very clear to the Jewish listeners.

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:36-38)

What action did the Jewish people need to do to be saved? Peter told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Then they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Calvinism/reformed insist one must have the Holy Spirit first to believe and repent, but clearly in the actual account of Acts the reception of the Holy Spirit is after repentance and faith.

So, what did it take for them to repent and believe? Hearing the Word of God preached and being deeply convicted by it, they sought to know what course of action they must take to be forgiven-saved.

To see this and deny it means you do not want to see it, but to stay in the darkness of Calvinism.

I never said anyone did. I am only pointing out that man is fully engaged in his salvation from God, before receiving the Holy Spirit. Something Calvinists refuse, as they get the cart in front of the horse that man must first receive the Holy Spirit and then repent and believe.

So which is it? Does man first repent and believe and then receive the Holy Spirit? Or is Peter wrong that they first must receive the Holy Spirit so they can repent and believe?

Does God command men everywhere to repent? Is it a hollow command that cannot be fulfilled? Or is God commanding men to do something that is within their capacity now that He has reconciled the world to Himself not counting men's sins against them?

If not within their capacity, then why did God send His own Son to die for the sins of everyone and yet not be genuine in His Word through His Son that He loves the world and gave His Son for us?


Rhetoric again unfortunately.

Your question was rhetorical. You know as well as I that God answers to know one but Himself, and since He has given us a testimony of His character, we should believe it and not discount it for a theory that makes a mockery of God. Yes, Calvinism makes a mockery of God. It is a religion of man packaged in such a way for man to say how God is instead of listening to God Himself.

Want proof? What comes first, man hearing, being convicted, repenting and placing faith in Jesus Christ and then receiving the Holy Spirit-new life (regeneration) from Jesus Christ? Or man being given the new life from Christ of the Spirit (regeneration) and then repenting and placing faith in Jesus Christ?

I refer to the account of Acts where only repentant believers of Jesus Christ received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the unrepentant unbelievers were instructed on what they needed to do to receive this eternal life changing gift.

God Bless

And we would be right. We are saved by grace. We contribute nothing to God's grace.

Again, no one said you don't have to repent and believe. You might not say it but your certainly implying it. Why say it otherwise?

Covered that already. No one calls CHRIST LORD BUT BY THE SPIRIT.

Repentance and belief are both granted or given by God. If not given it God your helpless to do so because you simply do not desire to. "NO ONE SEEKS AFTER GOD". Hence a change of heart is needed. From stone to flesh. Change of heart means a change of desires.

Answered already. NO ONE CALLS CHRIST LORD BUT BY THE SPIRIT.

 

[civic]

I never said anyone did. I am pointing out a conundrum of Calvinism that natural-unregenerate man is not a determining factor in his salvation and yet biblically he is.

And that is why the Lord spoke about the coming of the Holy Spirit and His work within mankind in John 16:8-11, as recorded upon His coming in Acts. And yet people can, do, and have resisted the Holy Spirit like the Jewish people of our Lord's day and brought God's anger upon them. Some of them were committing the unforgivable sin of equating the workings of the Holy Spirit through our Lord as Satan's.

Peter's Spirit filled message and instructions to be saved was very clear to the Jewish listeners.

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:36-38)

What action did the Jewish people need to do to be saved? Peter told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Then they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Calvinism/reformed insist one must have the Holy Spirit first to believe and repent, but clearly in the actual account of Acts the reception of the Holy Spirit is after repentance and faith.

So, what did it take for them to repent and believe? Hearing the Word of God preached and being deeply convicted by it, they sought to know what course of action they must take to be forgiven-saved.

To see this and deny it means you do not want to see it, but to stay in the darkness of Calvinism.

I never said anyone did. I am only pointing out that man is fully engaged in his salvation from God, before receiving the Holy Spirit. Something Calvinists refuse, as they get the cart in front of the horse that man must first receive the Holy Spirit and then repent and believe.

So which is it? Does man first repent and believe and then receive the Holy Spirit? Or is Peter wrong that they first must receive the Holy Spirit so they can repent and believe?

Does God command men everywhere to repent? Is it a hollow command that cannot be fulfilled? Or is God commanding men to do something that is within their capacity now that He has reconciled the world to Himself not counting men's sins against them?

If not within their capacity, then why did God send His own Son to die for the sins of everyone and yet not be genuine in His Word through His Son that He loves the world and gave His Son for us?


Rhetoric again unfortunately.

Your question was rhetorical. You know as well as I that God answers to know one but Himself, and since He has given us a testimony of His character, we should believe it and not discount it for a theory that makes a mockery of God. Yes, Calvinism makes a mockery of God. It is a religion of man packaged in such a way for man to say how God is instead of listening to God Himself.

Want proof? What comes first, man hearing, being convicted, repenting and placing faith in Jesus Christ and then receiving the Holy Spirit-new life (regeneration) from Jesus Christ? Or man being given the new life from Christ of the Spirit (regeneration) and then repenting and placing faith in Jesus Christ?

I refer to the account of Acts where only repentant believers of Jesus Christ received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the unrepentant unbelievers were instructed on what they needed to do to receive this eternal life changing gift.

God Bless

You represent the Good character of our God well. Nicely done brother.

 

[atpollard]

Thing is though God does NOT do everything nor does he control every action and while they've sought to be sincere they are sincerely wrong. Some of them have meant well but it's a zeal to God not according to knowledge.

What does God not control?
(an honest question)

 

[atpollard]

95% of WHAT!?!

Salvation.

Since God draws [John 6:44] and God gives the gift of "saved by grace through faith not of yourselves" [Ephesians 2:8-9], the "credit" for salvation is 100% God's [who will not give His glory to anyone else - Isaiah 42:8].

If God merely lays a gift at the feet of men to TAKE or KICK ASIDE, then a portion of the "credit" for salvation goes to the man who chose well [even as you are quick to lay the "blame" for damnation on the man who chose badly. [contrary to Ephesians 2:9 ... it is in part "of yourselves"].

That is "WHAT".

 

[atpollard]

Repentance is an act of the will based upon a thoughtful decision to turn to the Lord and away from one's self.

In Acts 2, the LORD had already pierced their hearts before they cried out ... so who made the first move?
In Acts 16, the LORD opened Lydia's heart to respond ... so who made the first move?

That is all we are saying.

 

[civic]

Salvation.

Since God draws [John 6:44] and God gives the gift of "saved by grace through faith not of yourselves" [Ephesians 2:8-9], the "credit" for salvation is 100% God's [who will not give His glory to anyone else - Isaiah 42:8].

If God merely lays a gift at the feet of men to TAKE or KICK ASIDE, then a portion of the "credit" for salvation goes to the man who chose well [even as you are quick to lay the "blame" for damnation on the man who chose badly. [contrary to Ephesians 2:9 ... it is in part "of yourselves"].

That is "WHAT".

The gift is salvation not faith . That proof text doesn’t work in isolation from the rest of scripture.

 

[atpollard]

I think of it like the Coast Guard going out into the ocean to save lives. They get out there and throw a ringer float to one who is drowning. Then they bring them on board the boat.

... and if the man is floating face down when God drags him unresponsive to the deck of the boat, performs CPR to revive his heart, and then the man gushes repentance for his folly of not wearing a life-jacket and gratitude towards God for saving him ... did the man CHOOSE to cooperate and accept the gift that God offered?

Ephesians 2:1-10 [NLT]

Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else. ​

​

But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. ​

​

God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.​

 

[atpollard]

The gift is salvation not faith . That proof text doesn’t work in isolation from the rest of scripture.

"gift" is neuter. ("this" of "this not of you" is neuter)

"saved" is masculine
"faith" is feminine
"grace" is feminine

If the GIFT was any ONE item (saved or faith or grace), then it would have been masculine or feminine to match the item and identify the gift.
The GIFT is neuter, meaning that it is the whole thing ... [YLT] "by grace ye are having been saved, through faith".
The same rules of Grammar tell us that the neuter "THIS" which is "not of you" is also the whole thing.

QED.

• "by grace ye are having been saved, through faith" is a GIFT
• "by grace ye are having been saved, through faith" is a NOT OF YOU

per the Apostle Paul.