The 5 Points of Calvinism

Presby02 said:
Yup. Who are chosen, they do mot become chosen. How did they become elect? Was it God's or yours?
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Thanks then I’m correct about Eph 1:13. The elect , chosen, predestined are only those who are In Christ, In Him. The only way one becomes in Christ is when they believe as Paul says in many places including Eph 1 and Romans 8.
 
civic said:
Thanks then I’m correct about Eph 1:13. The elect , chosen, predestined are only those who are In Christ, In Him. The only way one becomes in Christ is when they believe as Paul says in many places including Eph 1 and Romans 8.
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No, actually your not right. As usual. Poor effort

You do not choose to become elect. A point you refuse to deal with.
 
Presby02 said:
No, actually your not right. As usual. Poor effort

You do not choose to become elect. A point you refuse to deal with.
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Believers choose to be in Christ when they hear and believe the gospel. See Eph 1:13. :)

They are the predestined, chosen,elect IN CHRIST.

Maybe this will help you understand the biblical MEANING OF ELECT, CHOSEN, PREDESTINED.

It I give everyone in my city a warning that a fatal catastrophic storm in coming tomorrow and that there will be a safe have provided in an underground bunker that all who come, so that everyone is invited( no exceptions) to have this shelter to survive the fatal storm may live.

Now there are 2 choices everyone can make. Those who are predestined, chosen,elect will find safety in there bunker that was prepared beforehand for all who come to be saved. Then there are those who ignore the warning and do not come to the shelter and die in the storm because they refused to listen to the warning and the safety that was provided for them.

Predestination is the shelter that gives them life, not death. The Shelter is Christ and those who choose life are the ones who are predestined to have life and safety in the shelter. All are invited to have safety and life in the predestined bunker provided for everyone in the city. Those who come to the shelter/Christ are predestined to be saved.

Predestination is always in Christ the shelter. Individuals are not predestined. Christ is the Elect One and those who place their faith in Him are the ones who will be saved.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
Believers choose to be in Christ when they hear and believe the gospel. See Eph 1:13. :)

They are the predestined, chosen,elect IN CHRIST.

Maybe this will help you understand the biblical MEANING OF ELECT, CHOSEN, PREDESTINED.

It I give everyone in my city a warning that a fatal catastrophic storm in coming tomorrow and that there will be a safe haven provided in an underground bunker that all who come, so that everyone is invited( no exceptions) to have this shelter to survive the fatal storm may live.

Now there are 2 choices everyone can make. Those who are predestined, chosen,elect will find safety in the bunker that was prepared beforehand for all who come to be saved. Then there are those who ignore the warning and do not come to the shelter and die in the storm because they refused to listen to the warning and the safety that was provided for them.

Predestination is the shelter that gives them life, not death. The Shelter is Christ and those who choose life are the ones who are predestined to have life and safety in the shelter. All are invited to have safety and life in the predestined bunker that was prepared beforehand which was provided for everyone in the city. Those who come to the shelter/Christ are predestined to be saved.

Predestination is always in Christ the shelter. Individuals are not predestined. Christ is the Elect One and those who place their faith in Him are the ones who will be saved.

hope this helps !!!
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Very good explanation.
 
atpollard said:
If they believe as you claim, then I share your concerns. However, as a Baptist, a believer in the Doctrines of Grace (God chooses people, men do not choose God), and someone familiar with Pentecostals, I am only too aware of how honest biblical opinions can be misrepresented by those seeking to demonize your position. The idea of sinning and being forgiven can also refer to the honest teaching from the Apostles Paul and John intended to fill those STRIVING for Holiness and living in terror of being one slip away from damnation that ...

And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son. - John [John 3:14-18 NLT]​
​
And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow--not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below--indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Paul [Romans 8:38-39 NLT]​
​
This is the message we heard from Jesus and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all. So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness; we are not practicing the truth. But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. ​
If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts. ​
My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous. He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins--and not only our sins but the sins of all the world. ​
And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. If someone claims, "I know God," but doesn't obey God's commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth. But those who obey God's word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him. Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did. - John [1 John 1:5-10; 1 John 2:1-6 NLT]​

Thus there is a path of BALANCE and ASSURANCE. We are to walk in the LIGHT without needing to live in fear that one misstep will cast His Children into darkness.
  • Eternal life and no judgement to those who believe.
  • Inseparable love.
  • Living in spiritual light.
  • If we confess sin, Jesus is faithful to forgive sin.
  • We need not sin, but we have an Advocate if we do sin.
  • Obeying His commandments (LOVE) allows US to be sure that we are living in the truth - living in Him.
  • So we should live as Jesus did (in love and not fear), (in mercy and not judgement) and (in grace and not hate).
Since I fail more often that I would like, I NEED that assurance and love and grace.
All that I am saying in defense of OSAS teaching, is what John and Paul said: Once we are His, we are His. Once we are Loved, we are Loved.

Praise God and AMEN!
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What is the definition of the GRACE you believe in? Any scriptures for it would also be helpful. Thanks
 
charismaticlady said:
What is the definition of the GRACE you believe in? Any scriptures for it would also be helpful. Thanks
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My working "theological definition" is UNMERITED FAVOR. The technical root word is 'charis' [G5485] with a root meaning of "that which affords joy, pleasure, delight".

For Scriptural Guidance, I turn to:
  • Romans 4:1-8 [NKJV] What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has [something] to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: "Blessed [are those] whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed [is the] man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."
  • Romans 5:12-21 [NKJV] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift [is] not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift [is] not like [that which came] through the one who sinned. For the judgment [which came] from one [offense resulted] in condemnation, but the free gift [which came] from many offenses [resulted] in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man's offense [judgment came] to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act [the free gift came] to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
civic said:
Believers choose to be in Christ when they hear and believe the gospel. See Eph 1:13. :)

They are the predestined, chosen,elect IN CHRIST.

Maybe this will help you understand the biblical MEANING OF ELECT, CHOSEN, PREDESTINED.

It I give everyone in my city a warning that a fatal catastrophic storm in coming tomorrow and that there will be a safe have provided in an underground bunker that all who come, so that everyone is invited( no exceptions) to have this shelter to survive the fatal storm may live.

Now there are 2 choices everyone can make. Those who are predestined, chosen,elect will find safety in there bunker that was prepared beforehand for all who come to be saved. Then there are those who ignore the warning and do not come to the shelter and die in the storm because they refused to listen to the warning and the safety that was provided for them.

Predestination is the shelter that gives them life, not death. The Shelter is Christ and those who choose life are the ones who are predestined to have life and safety in the shelter. All are invited to have safety and life in the predestined bunker provided for everyone in the city. Those who come to the shelter/Christ are predestined to be saved.

Predestination is always in Christ the shelter. Individuals are not predestined. Christ is the Elect One and those who place their faith in Him are the ones who will be saved.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
No they don't. That choice is made by God. The choice occurs "from the foundation of the world".


You do not choose to be chosen. Scripture nowhere teaches such a thing.

glad I could help !!!!
 
Presby02 said:
No they don't. That choice is made by God. The choice occurs "from the foundation of the world".


You do not choose to be chosen. Scripture nowhere teaches such a thing.

glad I could help !!!!
Click to expand...
nope its Christ who is the Elect/Chosen One that all who believe are predestined to benefit from being In Him when faith in the gospel message is heard and believed. Eph 1:1-14.

next
 
charismaticlady said:
Okay, sorry, I thought you were a Calvinist.
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I am, LOL
civic said:
nope its Christ who is the Elect/Chosen One that all who believe are predestined to benefit from being In Him when faith in the gospel message is heard and believed. Eph 1:1-14.

next
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Nope. Wrong again. God does the choosing. NOWHERE does scripture teach God chooses those who choose Him. Nowhere are we taught the reason for His Choice.

This should help
 
atpollard said:
My working "theological definition" is UNMERITED FAVOR. The technical root word is 'charis' [G5485] with a root meaning of "that which affords joy, pleasure, delight".

For Scriptural Guidance, I turn to:
  • Romans 4:1-8 [NKJV] What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has [something] to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: "Blessed [are those] whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed [is the] man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."
  • Romans 5:12-21 [NKJV] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift [is] not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift [is] not like [that which came] through the one who sinned. For the judgment [which came] from one [offense resulted] in condemnation, but the free gift [which came] from many offenses [resulted] in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man's offense [judgment came] to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act [the free gift came] to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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I see the different definitions of "grace" as the main cause of the difference in how we see ourselves. We either believe we are always a sinner, or a victorious child of God. Proverbs 23:7 "For as he thinks in his heart, so is he."

There are more scriptures in line with the second definition than the former. For instance, Romans chapters 3-5 is based on the Old Testament, and chapter 6 and 8 shows the power of God. John says it best.

1 John 3:4-9
"4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

In 1977 when I was born again and filled with the Spirit of God to overflowing I literally felt a heaviness lift off of me, leaving me feeling light as a feather. John spelled it out exactly as I experienced it.
 
Presby02 said:
No they don't. That choice is made by God. The choice occurs "from the foundation of the world".


You do not choose to be chosen. Scripture nowhere teaches such a thing.

glad I could help !!!!
Click to expand...
I have found that the scriptures pointing to those chosen by the Father for the Son were all about the apostles only, not those who came after the apostles. It is the apostles who can never be snatched out of God's hands.
 

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