The 10 most Commonly referred to points against PSA
- Thread starter Bronson
- Start date
Johann
Well-known member
I'm serious-show me ONE verse that says I am Trinity-or I am God.
And with that-I rest my case.
civic
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
Like I've said-show me ONE scripture re expiate/expiation.
C. Bruston in ZNTW vii. (1906), p. 77 ff. It should be added, however, that, whatever view is taken of Rom_3:25, in Heb_9:5, the only other place where the word occurs in the NT, ἱλαστήριον must mean “place of propitiation” or “mercy-seat,” as in the LXX of the Pentateuch.
This notion of Jesus’ death making propitiation is not a completely foreign concept to Judaism since we find some precedence for it within the inter-testamental literature of the Jews (as well as the teachings of the OT prophets). Books such as Maccabees provide us with a glimpse of how the Jews viewed the deaths of their righteous at the hands of tyrants and despots:
"These also avenged their nation, looking unto God, and enduring torments unto death. For it was truly a divine contest which was carried through by them. For at that time virtue presided over the contest, approving the victory through endurance, namely, immortality, eternal life. Eleazar was the first to contend: and the mother of the seven children entered the contest; and the brethren contended. The tyrant was the opposite; and the world and living men were the spectators. And reverence for God conquered, and crowned her own athletes. Who did not admire those champions of true legislation? Who were not astonished? The tyrant himself, and all their council, admired their endurance; through which, also, they now stand beside the divine throne, and live a blessed life. For Moses saith, And all the saints are under thine hands [Dt 33:3]. These, therefore, having been sanctified through God, have been honoured not only with this honour, but that also by their means the enemy did not overcome our nation; and that the tyrant was punished, and their country purified. For they became the ransom to the sin of the nation; and the Divine Providence saved Israel, aforetime afflicted, by the blood of those pious ones, and the propitiatory (tou hilasteriou) death." 4 Maccabees 17:10-22 (Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton, The Septuagint LXX: Greek and English; source)
"Beholding him so high-minded against misery, and not changing at their pity, they led him to the fire: then with their wickedly-contrived instruments they burnt him on the fire, and poured stinking fluids down into his nostrils. And he being at length burnt down to the bones, and about to expire, raised his eyes Godward, and said, Thou knowest, O God, that when I might have been saved, I am slain for the sake of the law by tortures of fire. Be merciful to thy people, and be satisfied with the punishment of me on their account. Let my blood be a purification for them, and take my life in recompense for theirs. Thus speaking, the holy man departed, noble in his torments, and even to the agonies of death resisted in his reasoning for the sake of the law." 4 Maccabees 6:24-30
Renowned Messianic Jewish scholar Dr. Michael L. Brown provides some further insights into the Jewish thinking concerning the slaughter of the righteous martyrs:
"Another consideration tinged the Jewish response to the slaughter of its people. It was an old Jewish tradition dating back to Biblical times that the death of the righteous and innocent served as expiation for the sins of the nation or the world. The stories of Isaac and of Nadav and Avihu, the prophetic description of Israel as the long-suffering servant of the Lord, the sacrificial service in the Temple - all served to reinforce this basic concept of the death of the righteous as an atonement for the sins of other men.
"Jews nurtured this classic idea of death as an atonement, and this attitude towards their own tragedies was their constant companion throughout their turbulent exile.
Therefore, the wholly bleak picture of unreasoning slaughter was somewhat relieved by the fact that the innocent did not die in vain and that the betterment of Israel and humankind somehow was advanced by their ‘stretching their neck to be slaughtered.’ What is amazing is that this abstract, sophisticated, theological thought should have become so ingrained in the psyche of the people that even the least educated and most simplistic of Jews understood the lesson and acted upon it, giving up precious life in a soaring act of belief and affirmation of the better tomorrow. This spirit of the Jews is truly reflected in the historical chronicle of the time:
‘Would the Holy One, Blessed is he, dispense judgment without justice? But we may say that he whom God loves will be chastised. For since the day the Holy Temple was destroyed, the righteous are seized by death for the iniquities of the generation’ (Yeven Metzulah, end of Chapter 15)." (Dr. Michael L. Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: Theological Objections [Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI, 2000], Volume Two, pp. 154-155; underline emphasis ours)
Hence, the death of Jesus on behalf of his people is something which would be thoroughly acceptable within the Jewish worldview of his day. His death would have fallen under the category of the righteous martyr, e.g. a faithful, pious Jew whose death God accepted as an atonement for others.
(2) Shabir denies that Paul composed the letters to Timothy and Titus, otherwise known as the Pastoral Epistles, hence his classifying them as "Deutero-Pauline." He subscribes to the liberal-critical view that these epistles were either written by a disciple of Paul or someone from among the Pauline circle.
Shabir has apparently changed his position since in some of his published works he attributes Pauline authorship to 1 and 2 Timothy:
Many people use Paul’s writings as proof that Jesus is God. But this is not fair to Paul, because Paul clearly believed that Jesus is not God.
In his first letter to Timothy, Paul wrote: ... (Paul Believed That Jesus is not God; source)
And:
They will say, "Yes! All scripture is inspired of God." They will also quote from the Bible where it says exactly that in Paul's 2nd Letter to Timothy, chapter 3, verse 16. They may then smile happily because they showed you the answer straight from the Bible. (101 questions for Jehavoh's Witnesses; source)
Be that as it may, our point still stands since even if one subscribes to the theory that these epistles were composed by a pseudonymous writer this would still be an accurate reflection of Paul’s teachings to the churches. After all, this allegedly unknown author would obviously want to closely reflect the theology that Paul taught his followers.
(3) This idea of Jesus’ death being both a ransom and a sacrifice finds some precedence within the OT corpus. The Hebrew Scriptures speak of God redeeming his people from their sins:
"Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning. Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell. But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me." Psalm 49:14-15
"Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases, who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy," Psalm 103:2-4
"O Israel, hope in the LORD! For with the LORD there is steadfast love, and with him is plentiful redemption. And he will redeem Israel from all his iniquities." Psalm 130:7-8
The prophetic writings indicate that the way he does this is by atonement, by vicarious sacrifice:
"Praise is due to you, O God, in Zion, and to you shall vows be performed. O you who hears prayer, to you shall all flesh come. When iniquities prevail against me, you ATONE for our transgressions. Blessed is the one you choose and bring near, to dwell in your courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, the holiness of your temple! By awesome deeds you answer us with righteousness, O God of our salvation, the hope of all the ends of the earth and of the farthest seas;" Psalm 65:1-5
"They remembered that God was their rock, the Most High God their REDEEMER. But they flattered him with their mouths; they lied to him with their tongues. Their heart was not steadfast toward him; they were not faithful to his covenant. Yet he, being compassionate, ATONED for their iniquity and did not destroy them; he restrained his anger often and did not stir up all his wrath. He remembered that they were but flesh, a wind that passes and comes not again." Psalm 78:35-39
"Do not remember against us our former iniquities; let your compassion come speedily to meet us, for we are brought very low. Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of your name; deliver us, and ATONE for our sins, for your name's sake!" Psalm 79:8-9; cf. Leviticus 16; 17:11
Thus, the NT teaching that Jesus’ death encompasses both of these elements simultaneously is faithful to the OT depiction of God ransoming his people from their transgression by atonement.
Johann
Well-known member
Only difference is I am willing to admit I am still a student in God's yeshiva and the emphasis in PSA is on the WRONG word.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I've been trying to understand your point. Pardon me if I get this wrong......
Are you appealing to "Substitutionary" as being relative to punishment for sin?
If so, then what about the innocent? The innocent die without regard to legal obligation to punishment.
atpollard
Well-known member
I am sorry that you have rejected your Trinitarianism.
That was never the intent of Sola Scriptura.
The goal was always just to reign in unsupported eisegesis ... but that is your choice.
The Bible is clear on the deity of the Son and the "oneness" of "YHWH". The "personhood" of the Holy Spirit requires a close reading of prepositions in scripture.
[Shalom, Caio & L8R]
Johann
Well-known member
Never said I rejected the Triune Godhead nor that Messiah is God-I am trying to get a point across-that's all.
Johann
Well-known member
Gal 3:13 Moshiach redeemed us from the kelalah (curse) of the Torah, having become a kelalah (curse) on behalf of us, because it has been written, KILELAT HASHEM is on NIVLATO TALUI AL HAETZ ("Curse of G-d is on the NEVELAH (body, corpse) being hanged on the tree" DEVARIM 21:23),
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach's] hand.
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei'avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach's) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.
2Co 5:21 The one who in his person had no da'as of chattat (sin) [Ac 3:14; Yn 8:46; MJ 4:15; 7:26; 1K 2:22; 1Y 3:5], this one Hashem made a chattat sin offering [Ga 3:13; YESHAYAH 53:10; VAYIKRA 4:24 TARGUM HASHIVIM] on our behalf that we might become the Tzidkat Hashem [DANIEL 9:24] in Moshiach. [1C 1:30; Pp 3:9] [T.N. In this next chapter Rav Sha’ul warns against associations or worldly influences or fascinations that will contaminate the believer, who should not think he can have both the world’s evil pleasures and the House of G-d’s holy chelek.]
Redeemed us (hēmas exēgorasen). First aorist active of the compound verb exagorazō (Polybius, Plutarch, Diodorus), to buy from, to buy back, to ransom. The simple verb agorazō (1Co_6:20; 1Co_7:23) is used in an inscription for the purchase of slaves in a will (Deissmann, Light from the Ancient East, p. 324). See also Gal_4:5; Col_4:5; Eph_5:16. Christ purchased us from the curse of the law (ek tēs kataras tou nomou). “Out from (ek repeated) under (hupo in Gal_3:10) the curse of the law.”
Having become a curse for us (genomenos huper hēmōn katara). Here the graphic picture is completed. We were under (hupo) a curse, Christ became a curse over (huper) us and so between us and the overhanging curse which fell on him instead of on us. Thus he bought us out (ek) and we are free from the curse which he took on himself. This use of huper for substitution is common in the papyri and in ancient Greek as in the N.T. (Joh_11:50; 2Co_5:14.).
That hangeth on a tree (ho kremamenos epi xulou). Quotation from Deu_21:23 with the omission of hupo theou (by God). Since Christ was not cursed by God. The allusion was to exposure of dead bodies on stakes or crosses (Jos_10:26). Xulon means wood, not usually tree, though so in Luk_23:31 and in later Greek. It was used of gallows, crosses, etc. See note on Act_5:30; note on Act_10:39; and note on 1Pe_2:24. On the present middle participle from the old verb kremannumi, to hang, see Mat_18:6; Act_5:30.
redeemed: Gal_3:10, Gal_4:5; Isa_55:5-7, Isa_55:10-12; Dan_9:24, Dan_9:26; Zec_13:7; Mat_26:28; Rom_3:24-26, Rom_4:25, Rom_8:3-4; 2Co_5:21; Eph_5:2; Tit_2:14; Heb_7:26-27, Heb_9:12, Heb_9:15, Heb_9:26, Heb_9:28, Heb_10:4-10; 1Pe_1:18-21, 1Pe_2:24, 1Pe_3:18; 1Jn_2:1-2, 1Jn_4:10; Rev_1:5, Rev_5:9, Rev_13:8
being: 2Ki_22:19; Jer_44:22, Jer_49:13; Rom_9:3
for: Deu_21:23; 2Sa_17:23, 2Sa_18:10, 2Sa_18:14-15, 2Sa_21:3, 2Sa_21:9; Est_7:10, Est_9:14; Mat_27:5; 1Pe_2:24
Cursed: Jos_10:26-27
You tell me-no punishment involved here? Since hilasterion is being replaced by expiation-nowhere to be found in Scripture.
Strong verbs-judicial verbs-substitutionary verbs-do a study on Asham and come back to me.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
No one has made that argument. Both sides agree in this.
Diserner
Well-known member
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Jesus was certainly punished but WHO is responsible is relative. Jesus GAVE HIS BACK.... to others. God didn't whip Jesus Christ beyond human recognition.
Diserner
Well-known member
The physical suffering was relatively tiny compared to the actual atonement.
Kind of a physical picture to help people understand.
"Marred beyond human" didn't literally happen, this is a spiritual picture.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I briefly read and didn't see it. I'll look back through. Thanks
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
It would be a good discussion to get into the details of His suffering. As a man, He no doubt suffered. When speaking of Spiritual aspects of the Atonement is where we no doubt differ.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
In reference to my last post.
I don't want anyone to believe that I'm trying to diminish the actual suffering of Jesus Christ. I love Jesus Christ and I adore what He has done for me. I simply mention this so as to discuss exactly what happened in the Atonement.
1. Jesus tasted Death
Relative to the nature of Divinity within Jesus Christ, Jesus only tasted death THROUGH His humanity. This is clear from
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Also, He "drank" of a cup of suffering.
John 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? He was never overcome by the suffering.
2. Jesus suffered extensively at the hands of men but it was a light matter relative to His Essence. In other words, Jesus easily overcame this world.
I know the verse I'm going to reference is relative to our struggles but He shared in them. Relative to His ability,
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
Now... the payload.... and question that must be asked....
Did Jesus supernaturally extended His suffering to get in just the right amount of due suffering for PSA?
Johann
Well-known member
Did I say that?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Not exactly, but it is a common position for those who espouse PSA. As @civic has said. He is over 99 percent PSA. The issue is what role did God have in the affliction of Christ.
